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The sutta in question is “Vitakkasaṇṭhāna Sutta“.
It is not easy to translate a sutta in a forum response. I will try to make a post in the future. But let me try to give the essence of the sutta.
1. A living being (satta or satva) manifests because of the akusala-mula Paticca Samuppada (PS) processes.
– As you can see the “whole mass of suffering” starts with “avijja paccaya sankhara”. But avijja does not arise without causes.
– Avijja arises when we come across a sensory input that “matches” our gati. We have, in broad terms, lobha gati, dosa, gati, and moha gati.2. When a sensory input comes that “matches our gati” then we attach to it with samphassa-ja-vedana. See, “Dukkha Samudaya Starts With Samphassa-Jā-Vedanā”
– That is when we start acting with avijja, i.e., that is when we start doing (abhi) sankhara with “avijja paccaya sankhara”.3. Therefore, the key to stopping those akusala-mula PS processes is to stay mindful and stop such attachments.
– The first thing that happens when we come across such a sensory input (arammana) is that we start thinking about it. Those thoughts are vaci sankhara and they arise with vitakka/vicara. They are also called sankappa.
– There are “bad sankappa” or “bad vitakka” associated with lobha, dosa, moha. They are kama vitakka, vyapada vitakka, and vihimsa vitakka (corresponding greed, anger, ignorance). Of course, we need to stop them and cultivate the opposites: nekkamma vitakka, avyapada vitakka, and avihimsa vitakka.4. The “Vitakkasaṇṭhāna Sutta” discussed five ways to control such bad vitakka. I will briefly list them:
(i) When such bad thoughts connected with desire, hate, and delusion start arising, one should suppress those thoughts by instead focusing on the opposite vitakka. For example, if it is an angry thought towards someone, one should start generating metta toward that person.
(ii) If that does not work one should think about the bad consequences of such bad vitakka. That such bad thoughts/actions can lead to bad vipaka, both in this life and in future lives.
(iii) One should try to avoid such sensory inputs. For example, avoid coming face-to-face with adversaries, avoid gambling places, etc.
(iv) In some cases, one can look at the root cause for such akusala vitakka to come to mind. For example, if thoughts arise to hit someone, think about why that would be necessary or what would be the real reason for such drastic action. You may realize that it was a misunderstanding that led to the confrontation.
(v) If none of those work, one should stop such bad vitakka by force as the last resort: With teeth clenched and tongue pressed against the roof of the mouth, make firm determination that “I will not sustain such thoughts”. Yes. you need to literally clench the teeth and press the tongue against the roof of the mouth. Try and see. That takes the mind away from those thoughts, because you are focusing on that.Anyway, I hope you get the idea. Now if you read the translation that you quoted, you may be able to understand it better.
Yes. This is a good question. I will answer briefly and maybe need to add a post to the recent section on “Concepts of Upādāna and Upādānakkhandha”
1. We are bound to the samsaric process because of 4 types of upadana (this is just one way to look at how the rebirth process is maintained): diṭṭhupādāna, sīlabbatupādāna, kāmupādāna, and attavādupādāna.
– I have re-arranged the terms in the order that they are removed while cultivating the Noble Path.2. A living-being (satta or satva) manifests because of the akusala-mula Paticca Samuppada (PS) processes.
– As you can see the “whole mass of suffering” starts with “avijja paccaya sankhara”. But avijja does not arise without causes.
– Avijja arises when we come across a sensory input that “matches” our gati. We have, in broad terms, lobha gati, dosa, gati, and moha gati.3. Those gati can be looked at in terms of upadana.
– When one does not understand the PS enough, one has diṭṭhupādāna. Because of that one also thinks that living a moral life is good enough. That is sīlabbatupādāna.
– When one becomes at least a Sotapanna Anugami and starts comprehending PS/Tilakkhana/Noble Truths, one gets rid of those two types of upadana.4. However, even a Sotapanna has only removed those wrong views or diṭṭhi vipallasa. He/she would still have sanna and citta vipallasa.
– When a Sotapanna cultivates the anicca sanna, dukkha sanna, anatta sanna, he can gradually remove the “tendency to attach to sensual pleasures” or kama raga. When that is complete he would have also removed kāmupādāna.5. The last one remove is the “sense of a me” or “asmi mana” and that is removed at the Arahant stage. That is the citta vipallasa. In terms of upadana, it is the attavādupādāna. Of course, this “sense of me” is the hardest to remove. Avijja completely disappears only at that time.
Also, see, “Vipallāsa (Diṭṭhi, Saññā, Citta) Affect Saṅkhāra“
Hello Zapper,
1. I definitely DO NOT do any standard kasina or breath meditations. That should be clear to anyone.
2. I don’t try to get into jhanas in any case. But when I meditate on the anicca, dukkha, anatta nature (Tilakkhana) I get into “jhanic-like” states. I just don’t have the mindset to cultivate jhanas.
– Anyone who has comprehended Tilakkhana will get into jhanas while in meditation (they just go in and out of jhana). It is just that to stay in jhanas for long times (jhana samapatti) one must practice a lot. But there are some people (who had cultivated jhanas in recent past lives) who can easily get into jhana samapatti. Obviously, I am not one of them.
– My goal is not to enjoy “jhanic pleasures.” My goal is to stop the rebirth process completely ASAP.3. Not only any human, but ANY living being has attained the highest jhanas in their past. That is why jhanas are not a “big deal.”
– Of course, nothing wrong with getting into jhanas. In fact, there are benefits in cultivating jhanas. The problem arises when one starts enjoying the “jhanic pleasures” and forget that it is only a temporary state (even if one will be reborn in a Brahma realm and can enjoy such “jhanic pleasures” for millions of years). Eventually, they all end up in lower realms as animals or worse. In other words, any animal living today would have been born in a Brahma realm in the deep past.
– My advice to those who are obsessed with jhanas is to point out the account of Devadatta. He was able to attain the highest jhanas and had supernormal powers as well (all via anariya jhanas). But he ended up losing all that and was reborn in hell (niraya) because of his immoral activities.Paul:
Breath meditation may provide temporary relaxation, but that is not what Buddha Dhamma is about.– That is a deeper aspect that cannot be understood if one does not believe in the rebirth process.
Thank you both!
I have added that explanation to #1 on the post, “Akusala-Mūla Upapatti Paṭicca Samuppāda“
“I wonder if we can think along the same way here: there is no “san” in indriya, but “san” is involved in ayatana.”
– Almost right! A little bit better to say: “there is no “san” involved when using sensory faculties as indriya, but “san” is involved when they are used as ayatana.”
“However, if this is the case, then I remember reading about nibbana some time ago, in a post where nibbana was referred to as tadayatana. I wonder why ayatana was used there in the context of nibbana; “tadayatana” sounds like a contradiction in terms.
– The post you refer to is: “Nibbāna “Exists”, but Not in This World”
– The word “āyatana” is used there for the lack of a term to describe Nibbana. None of our words are applicable and “sphere” or “dimension” may be the closest that we can use. It has nothing to do with the 6 six sense faculties. I have revised the #4 of that post to make it a bit more clear.“Aṭṭī” means bones. Aṭṭīyati means for a person to consider mind-leasing things as useless as a dog wasting time chewing on a bone.
In the plural, it is “aṭṭīyeyyātha”:
Devaloka Sutta“Aṭṭīyāmi” is “I consider ..”:
Vijayā SuttaI don’t remember offhand the details, but the categorization “ekavokārabhavo, catuvokārabhavo, pañcavokārabhavo” is another way to describe 31 realms.
Kammic energy (which can remain for long times) is “deposited” as “kamma bhava.” That is the common name.
– They are created via all possible types of saṅkhāra: “Tattha katamo kammabhavo? Puññābhisaṅkhāro, apuññābhisaṅkhāro, āneñjābhisaṅkhāro.”
– This is explained in “Idappaccayātā Paṭicca Samuppāda”However, “strong kammic energies” (created within the above 3 categories of saṅkhāra) that can fuel future rebirths fall under “upapatti bhava” as the name implies.
– Those are associated with the corresponding “plane of existence”: “Tattha katamo upapattibhavo? Kāmabhavo, rūpabhavo, arūpabhavo, saññābhavo, asaññābhavo, nevasaññānāsaññābhavo, ekavokārabhavo, catuvokārabhavo, pañcavokārabhavo— ayaṁ vuccati “upapattibhavo”.
– This is “Akusala-Mūla Upapatti Paṭicca Samuppāda”Of course, neither type of kamma bhava can play a role after one attains Arahanthood via, “Kusala-Mula Paṭicca Samuppāda”
– Those kammic energies would still be there. But an Arahant would not have “upadana” for them.Yes. Waharaka Thero has explained it the following way:
A householder or a layperson cannot bear “the Arahanthood.” One must become a bhikkhu and wear the yellow robe within 7 days of attaining Arahanthood.
– The following is an analogy: A heated heater coil will be fine as long as it is submerged in water. If that heater coil is taken out of the water, it will burn.
jhāna does not necessarily mean transcending the kāma loka and attaining “jhānic states” as commonly interpreted these days.
“Jhāna” means to “cleanse one’s defilements (especially kāma raga“) by making an effort, especially via Anapanasati and Satipatthana Bhavana.
– When one does that panna grows and one may also attain “jhānic states.”This verse basically says that one needs to cultivate both jhāna and panna. The latter, of course, via learning true Dhamma. In fact, they grow together.
One can get a better idea of the meaning of the verse by looking at other verses in the sequence:
“Dhammapada Verses 368 to 376“1 user thanked author for this post.
OK, Tiom. I am glad that you are able to attain jhanas.
– Of course, the jhanic experience is the same whether it is an Ariya jhana (with kama raga removed) and for anariya jhana (with kama raga suppressed).Since you get to jhanas via breath meditation, these are definitely anariya jhana.
– But it is good to be able to get to any jhana.The only thing I can say is that anariya jhanas do not get one to Nibbana (end of the rebirth process). But it is possible that you may not be interested in attaining Nibbana.
Tobias, I do not have time to spend answering non-essential questions. There are many “interesting” questions/issues that a lot of people waste time on.
– As the Buddha explained to venerable Mālunkyāputta in the “The Shorter Discourse to Mālunkyāputta (MN 63)” Buddha Dhamma is not about investigating “interesting worldly things.” It is about ending the samsaric suffering.
– Besides, I have given the relevant answer, even though it may not be the direct answer that you are looking for.I think it would be more beneficial to focus on the issue of pancakkhandha.
– Rupa is different from rupakkhandha. Rupakkhandha consists of MENTAL impressions of rupa. It is essential to understand that. I have given the references. Please go through them and ask questions from there if not clear.
– What you quoted, “Tattha katamaṁ rūpaṁ? Cattāro mahābhūtā, catunnañca mahābhūtānaṁ upādāyarūpaṁ— idaṁ vuccati “rūpaṁ” is about rupa. But rupakkhandha has mental impressions of rupa.You wrote: “When one builds vinnana for a future activity that will be stored in pancakkandha or namarupa (as mind-made image).”
– That is not quite correct. Pancakkhada are MOSTLY records of past rupa experienced together with accompanying mental aggregates (“present rupa” and “future rupa” are also included in rupakkhandha). For example, say I saw a nice car yesterday. That event has an image of a rupa associated with it (image of the car). In addition, there were vedana, sanna, sankhara, and vinnana associated with that event. They all got added to pancakkhandha.
– Namarupa are mental images that come to one’s mind WHILE one is engaged with an arammana in the idappaccayātā PS. Again, read the post “Viññāna Paccayā Nāmarūpa“. I have revised most of it to make it a bit more clear. Please let me know if it is not clear. Maybe I need to write two posts to discuss the two types of PS.
– In the upapatti PS, namarupa is the “seed” formed by the merging of the gandhabba with the zygote in the womb. I realized that those old posts need to be re-written with further explanations. These are a bit hard to grasp because different types of namarupa come into play in different cases.I am not sure what the last part of your comment is about. It seems to be connected to the previous part. May be you can re-phrase the question after resolving the rupa/rupakkhandha and namarupa issues.
Per my above post:
I am revising the post, “Viññāna Paccayā Nāmarūpa”
– Hopefully, I will be able to finalize the revision later today.” What is the PS for “getting a glass of water from the kitchen”?”
That is the wrong way to look at the issue.
– We get thirsty, hungry, injured, etc., all because we are born with this physical body that CAN BE subjected all such sufferings.
– Those are the (cumulative) results of the previous kamma per akusala-mula PS.
– This is why I always refer to “removal of FUTURE suffering.” We can learn how physical bodies like ours arise due to akusala-mula PS AND how that can be stopped via kusala-mula PS.“What is namarupa?”
See, “Viññāna Paccayā Nāmarūpa”
“Is there a difference between namarupa and dhamma and pancakkandha?”
Yes. Huge differences. But they are all related too, especially the first two. Again, you need to read the relevant posts. Those cannot be described in a single post:
– If there are specific questions from a given post, I can try to explain.
– It may be a good idea to read the first few posts in “The Five Aggregates (Pañcakkhandha)” to understand pancakkhandha.
