[Lal]

The following comment is from Tobias G:

The post in question is “Akusala-Mūla Upapatti Paṭicca Samuppāda”

A relevant Tipitaka reference that I quote is, “Paṭiccasamuppāda vibhaṅga”

I want to talk about the PS process. During the last weeks, I was thinking a lot about that.
In Vb 6 it is said what is “avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā”: “..puññābhisaṅkhāro, apuññābhisaṅkhāro, āneñjābhisaṅkhāro, kāyasaṅkhāro, vacīsaṅkhāro, cittasaṅkhāro.”

We can see punna abhisankhara are part of akusala muala PS. That is also explained as “kusalā cetanā kāmāvacarā rūpāvacarā dānamayā sīlamayā bhāvanāmayā”. So it means the good roots of alobha, adosa, amoha still keeps one bound to samsara as long as there is avijja (“not knowing/understanding the four noble truths”). That seems clear to me.

Now also “kāyasaṅkhāro, vacīsaṅkhāro, cittasaṅkhāro” are mentioned. That is explained as “kāyasañcetanā kāyasaṅkhāro, vacīsañcetanā vacīsaṅkhāro, manosañcetanā cittasaṅkhāro”. What is that in real life? It seems it is every action that is not abhisankhara. It could be e.g. “getting a glass of water from the kitchen”. I have not seen a PS for such daily activities. It seems it all belongs to akusala PS because it is not kusala (remove defilements) or it “does not lead to Nibbana”. It is the opposite and keeps one bound to samsara (a+kusala = not kusala).

Next we have paṭi+icca leads to sama+uppāda. I think PS shows this two-step process:

step #1: avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, saṅkhārapaccayā viññāṇaṁ, viññāṇapaccayā nāmarūpaṁ
step #2: nāmarūpapaccayā saḷāyatanaṁ, saḷāyatanapaccayā phasso, phassapaccayā vedanā, vedanāpaccayā taṇhā, taṇhāpaccayā upādānaṁ, upādānapaccayā bhavo, bhavapaccayā jāti, jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇaṁ sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā

In step #1 gati is created in form of namarupa or dhamma. That is pati+icca.
In step #2 those gati is triggered by a sense input and leads to the use of indriya as ayatana where the defiled contact follows. That is sama+uppada.
Namarupa is the link between the two.

What I do not understand: why is the word “kamma” not used in PS and where is it created? Lal explains in the post Key Steps of Kammic Energy Accumulation that kamma is created in the step “upādāna paccayā bhavo”. But is it also created in sankhara paccaya (kamma)vinnana and kammavinnana paccaya namarupa?

Kamma is energy created via sankhara and stored in the mental plane, so it is namarupa? Kamma seems to be apart from citta, cetasika and rupa. But in the ultimate reality that cannot be.

[Lal]

Yes. It is necessary to clearly understand these fundamental concepts.

You asked: “Now also “kāyasaṅkhāro, vacīsaṅkhāro, cittasaṅkhāro” are mentioned. That is explained as “kāyasañcetanā kāyasaṅkhāro, vacīsañcetanā vacīsaṅkhāro, manosañcetanā cittasaṅkhāro”. What is that in real life? It seems it is every action that is not abhisankhara. It could be e.g. “getting a glass of water from the kitchen”. I have not seen a PS for such daily activities.”

1. The post is about akusala-mula Paticca Samuppada, which starts with “avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra.”
– Getting a glass of water does not fall under that.

2. The Tipitaka reference that you provided explains what is involved under “avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra“: “Tattha katame avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā? Puññābhisaṅkhāro, apuññābhisaṅkhāro, āneñjābhisaṅkhāro, kāyasaṅkhāro, vacīsaṅkhāro, cittasaṅkhāro” AND “Kāyasañcetanā kāyasaṅkhāro, vacīsañcetanā vacīsaṅkhāro, manosañcetanā cittasaṅkhāro. Ime vuccanti “avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā”.
– Note that Puññābhisaṅkhāra, apuññābhisaṅkhāra, āneñjābhisaṅkhāra are generated via kāyasaṅkhāra, vacīsaṅkhāra, cittasaṅkhāra. But the second verse above explains that ONLY sañcetanā are counted under akusala-mula Paticca Samuppada.
– Here sañcetanā means those that involve “san” (lobha, dosa, moha).
– That is why “getting a glass of water from the kitchen” does not fall under this category.

You wrote: “What I do not understand: why is the word “kamma” not used in PS and where is it created?”

The answer is partly explained above. Not all kamma are bad. Kamma basically means “action.”
– Punna kamma (moral deeds) are done with punnabhi sankhara.
– Pāpa kamma (immoral deeds) are done with apunnabhi sankhara.
– Kusala kamma (in Kusala-mula Paticca Samuppada) are done with “kusala-mula paccya sankhara” instead of “avijja paccaya sankhara.” Those kamma help one attain Nibbana.
– Then there are abyakata kamma (kammically neutral) like in “getting a glass of water from the kitchen”.

You wrote: “..Lal explains in the post “Key Steps of Kammic Energy Accumulation” that kamma is created in the step “upādāna paccayā bhavo”. But is it also created in sankhara paccaya (kamma)vinnana and kammavinnana paccaya namarupa?

– This is exactly what I tried to explain in that recent post, “Key Steps of Kammic Energy Accumulation.”
– We don’t automatically start accumulating kamma with “avijja paccaya sankhara.”
– Kamma accumulation needs a trigger, as explained with the above post and the next post, “Generating Kammic Energy in the “Upādāna Paccayā Bhava” Step”
– That trigger is explained in #1 of that second post in detail. The time sequence is discussed in detail in #1 through #3 of that second post referred to above. Then time sequence moves to the “avijja paccaya sankhara” and goes through all the steps in akusala-mula PS.
– So, please read those two posts again carefully.

You asked: “Kamma is energy created via sankhara and stored in the mental plane, so it is namarupa? Kamma seems to be apart from citta, cetasika and rupa..”

Kammic energy is created in javana citta, not all citta.
– Such javana citta involve punnabhi sankhara, apunnabhi sankhara in akusala-mula PS. See above at the beginning of my response.
– As explained there kamma are various types. Only those kamma that involve “sancetana” (with greed, anger, ignorance OR “san“) contribute to akusala-mula PS.

Please feel free to ask questions. It is important to get these basic ideas right.

[Tobias G]

Ok, understood. More questions:

Everything in this world is created with PS processes. What is the PS for “getting a glass of water from the kitchen”? For that to happen the person will get the urge to have a glass of water. That requires a sense input. The mind will stick to that idea and act upon. Which PS?

What is namarupa? Is it gati or just mind made ideas, concepts, plans? That was my last point above: Kamma is energy created via sankhara and stored in the mental plane, so it is namarupa? Kamma seems to be apart from citta, cetasika and rupa. But in the ultimate reality that cannot be.

This question about namarupa is linked to pati+iccha. What one likes/dislikes is stored as namarupa, so it is memory or namagotta?
Vb6 explains it that way: “Tattha katamaṁ viññāṇapaccayā nāmarūpaṁ? Atthi nāmaṁ, atthi rūpaṁ. Tattha katamaṁ nāmaṁ? Vedanākkhandho, saññākkhandho, saṅkhārakkhandho— idaṁ vuccati “nāmaṁ”. Tattha katamaṁ rūpaṁ? Cattāro mahābhūtā, catunnañca mahābhūtānaṁ upādāyarūpaṁ— idaṁ vuccati “rūpaṁ”. Iti idañca nāmaṁ, idañca rūpaṁ.”

The akusala mula PS works only for abhisankhara (punna/apunna..). Thus is namarupa just pancaupadanakkandha?

Is there a difference between namarupa and dhamma and pancakkandha?

[Lal]

” What is the PS for “getting a glass of water from the kitchen”?”

That is the wrong way to look at the issue.
– We get thirsty, hungry, injured, etc., all because we are born with this physical body that CAN BE subjected all such sufferings.
– Those are the (cumulative) results of the previous kamma per akusala-mula PS.
– This is why I always refer to “removal of FUTURE suffering.” We can learn how physical bodies like ours arise due to akusala-mula PS AND how that can be stopped via kusala-mula PS.

“What is namarupa?”

See, “Viññāna Paccayā Nāmarūpa”

“Is there a difference between namarupa and dhamma and pancakkandha?”

Yes. Huge differences. But they are all related too, especially the first two. Again, you need to read the relevant posts. Those cannot be described in a single post:
– If there are specific questions from a given post, I can try to explain.
– It may be a good idea to read the first few posts in “The Five Aggregates (Pañcakkhandha)” to understand pancakkhandha.

[Lal]

Per my above post:
I am revising the post, “Viññāna Paccayā Nāmarūpa”
– Hopefully, I will be able to finalize the revision later today.

[Tobias G]

Lal, you did not answer my questions. Is there a PS for “getting a glass of water from the kitchen”? Why shall this be the wrong way of looking? That is a question many people will have when looking deeper into the matter. You said in the post Idappaccayātā PS that even to build up a citta requires 16 super fast PS cycles. I think also Waharaka Thero said all in this nature happens based on PS.

Of course we have a vipaka kaya and some vipaka will happen to us during life. But we have to live that life and to act which is again based on PS. Is this PS not described in Abhidhamma?

Regarding namarupa: Vb6 explains the generation of namarupa as “Tattha katamaṁ viññāṇapaccayā nāmarūpaṁ? Atthi nāmaṁ, atthi rūpaṁ. Tattha katamaṁ nāmaṁ? Vedanākkhandho, saññākkhandho, saṅkhārakkhandho— idaṁ vuccati “nāmaṁ”. Tattha katamaṁ rūpaṁ? Cattāro mahābhūtā, catunnañca mahābhūtānaṁ upādāyarūpaṁ— idaṁ vuccati “rūpaṁ”. Iti idañca nāmaṁ, idañca rūpaṁ.”

That means pancakkandha. When one builds vinnana for a future activity that will be stored in pancakkandha or namarupa (as mind made image). The mind will recall this image from pancakkandha later and act upon again. That is how a being moves forward from one jati to another jati even during life. We fall from one situation into another and perceive this as continuous life.

If we talk about the transition to a new bhava at patisandhi the new bhava is grasped at the step upadana paccaya bhavo. Vb 6 states:
“Tattha katamo upādānapaccayā bhavo? Bhavo duvidhena— atthi kammabhavo, atthi upapattibhavo. Tattha katamo kammabhavo? Puññābhisaṅkhāro, apuññābhisaṅkhāro, āneñjābhisaṅkhāro— ayaṁ vuccati “kammabhavo”. Sabbampi bhavagāmikammaṁ kammabhavo.

Tattha katamo upapattibhavo? Kāmabhavo, rūpabhavo, arūpabhavo, saññābhavo, asaññābhavo, nevasaññānāsaññābhavo, ekavokārabhavo, catuvokārabhavo, pañcavokārabhavo— ayaṁ vuccati “upapattibhavo”. Ayaṁ vuccati “upādānapaccayā bhavo”.”

[Lal]

Tobias, I do not have time to spend answering non-essential questions. There are many “interesting” questions/issues that a lot of people waste time on.
– As the Buddha explained to venerable Mālunkyāputta in the “The Shorter Discourse to Mālunkyāputta (MN 63)” Buddha Dhamma is not about investigating “interesting worldly things.” It is about ending the samsaric suffering.
– Besides, I have given the relevant answer, even though it may not be the direct answer that you are looking for.

I think it would be more beneficial to focus on the issue of pancakkhandha.
– Rupa is different from rupakkhandha. Rupakkhandha consists of MENTAL impressions of rupa. It is essential to understand that. I have given the references. Please go through them and ask questions from there if not clear.
– What you quoted, “Tattha katamaṁ rūpaṁ? Cattāro mahābhūtā, catunnañca mahābhūtānaṁ upādāyarūpaṁ— idaṁ vuccati “rūpaṁ” is about rupa. But rupakkhandha has mental impressions of rupa.

You wrote: “When one builds vinnana for a future activity that will be stored in pancakkandha or namarupa (as mind-made image).”
– That is not quite correct. Pancakkhada are MOSTLY records of past rupa experienced together with accompanying mental aggregates (“present rupa” and “future rupa” are also included in rupakkhandha). For example, say I saw a nice car yesterday. That event has an image of a rupa associated with it (image of the car). In addition, there were vedana, sanna, sankhara, and vinnana associated with that event. They all got added to pancakkhandha.
– Namarupa are mental images that come to one’s mind WHILE one is engaged with an arammana in the idappaccayātā PS. Again, read the post “Viññāna Paccayā Nāmarūpa“. I have revised most of it to make it a bit more clear. Please let me know if it is not clear. Maybe I need to write two posts to discuss the two types of PS.
– In the upapatti PS, namarupa is the “seed” formed by the merging of the gandhabba with the zygote in the womb. I realized that those old posts need to be re-written with further explanations. These are a bit hard to grasp because different types of namarupa come into play in different cases.

I am not sure what the last part of your comment is about. It seems to be connected to the previous part. May be you can re-phrase the question after resolving the rupa/rupakkhandha and namarupa issues.

[Tobias G]

Ok, understood. Namarupa does not mean pancakkandha. As seen in Vb 6 it is really rupa not the imprint of rupa as in rupakkandha.

Can you explain what is meant with this part of akusala mula PS:

“Tattha katamo upādānapaccayā bhavo? Bhavo duvidhena— atthi kammabhavo, atthi upapattibhavo. Tattha katamo kammabhavo? Puññābhisaṅkhāro, apuññābhisaṅkhāro, āneñjābhisaṅkhāro— ayaṁ vuccati “kammabhavo”. Sabbampi bhavagāmikammaṁ kammabhavo.

Tattha katamo upapattibhavo? Kāmabhavo, rūpabhavo, arūpabhavo, saññābhavo, asaññābhavo, nevasaññānāsaññābhavo, ekavokārabhavo, catuvokārabhavo, pañcavokārabhavo— ayaṁ vuccati “upapattibhavo”. Ayaṁ vuccati “upādānapaccayā bhavo”.”

This PS step is twofold: kammabhavo and upapattibhavo. Is this the link to your last posts of kamma generation?

[Lal]

Kammic energy (which can remain for long times) is “deposited” as “kamma bhava.” That is the common name.
– They are created via all possible types of saṅkhāra: “Tattha katamo kammabhavo? Puññābhisaṅkhāro, apuññābhisaṅkhāro, āneñjābhisaṅkhāro.”
– This is explained in “Idappaccayātā Paṭicca Samuppāda”

However, “strong kammic energies” (created within the above 3 categories of saṅkhāra) that can fuel future rebirths fall under “upapatti bhava” as the name implies.
– Those are associated with the corresponding “plane of existence”: “Tattha katamo upapattibhavo? Kāmabhavo, rūpabhavo, arūpabhavo, saññābhavo, asaññābhavo, nevasaññānāsaññābhavo, ekavokārabhavo, catuvokārabhavo, pañcavokārabhavo— ayaṁ vuccati “upapattibhavo”.
– This is “Akusala-Mūla Upapatti Paṭicca Samuppāda”

Of course, neither type of kamma bhava can play a role after one attains Arahanthood via, “Kusala-Mula Paṭicca Samuppāda”
– Those kammic energies would still be there. But an Arahant would not have “upadana” for them.

[Tobias G]

Understood, what means ekavokārabhavo, catuvokārabhavo, pañcavokārabhavo?

[Lal]

I don’t remember offhand the details, but the categorization “ekavokārabhavo, catuvokārabhavo, pañcavokārabhavo” is another way to describe 31 realms.

[Tobias G]

In #1 of the updated post on akusala mula PS it is said:
“One is born in the remaining “good realms” or sugati (and also experience mundane sense pleasures) due to good gati due to alobha, adosa, amoha. The kusala-mula PS operates when actions, speech, and thoughts occur with these three root causes..”

But punna abhisankhara are part of akusala muala PS as long as there is avijja (“not knowing/understanding the four noble truths”). That is explained in Vb 6 as “kusalā cetanā kāmāvacarā rūpāvacarā dānamayā sīlamayā bhāvanāmayā”. So it means the good roots of alobha, adosa, amoha still keep one bound to samsara as long as there is avijja.
Punnabhisankhara become kusala only with understanding of the four noble truths.

[cubibobi]

The regular or mundane alobha, adosa, amoha still keep one in the rebirth process.

alobha, adosa, amoha with the comprehension of the four noble truths / tilakkana / Paṭicca Samuppāda lead to nibbana.

This was explained in:

Kusala-Mula Paṭicca Samuppāda

[Lal]

Thank you both!

I have added that explanation to #1 on the post, “Akusala-Mūla Upapatti Paṭicca Samuppāda“

[Lal]

In the above, on May 15, 2021 at 1:13 pm Tobias asked: “Understood, what means ekavokārabhavo, catuvokārabhavo, pañcavokārabhavo?”

I was not able to provide a satisfactory answer at that time. Today I posted the following in a different thread that provides a better answer.

Uppatti bhava is where a living being can be reborn.
– In Paṭiccasamuppādavibhaṅga
“16.1 Tattha katamo upapattibhavo? Kāmabhavo, rūpabhavo, arūpabhavo, saññābhavo, asaññābhavo, nevasaññānāsaññābhavo, ekavokārabhavo, catuvokārabhavo, pañcavokārabhavo”
– They can be divided into various groups.

1. One way to categorize is the following;
– Realms in kama loka (four apayas, human realm, and six Deva realms) belong to “kamma bhava.”
– The 16 rupavacara Brahma realms belong to “rupa bhava.”
– The four arupavacara Brahma realms belong to “arupa bhava”.

2. Another way is to divide uppatti bhava into two categories: “saññā bhava” (with perception or saññā) and “asaññā bhava” (without perception or saññā.)
– Only the rupavacara asaññā realm belongs to the “asaññā bhava.”
– Living beings in all other realms have saññā. They all belong to the “saññā bhava”.

3. The third way of categorization is based on the number of khandhas. “Vokāra” is another name for “khandha.”
– Ekavokārabhava means “one khandha.” That is the rupavacara asaññā realm. It has only the rupakkhandha.
– Catuvokārabhava (with four khandhas) includes the realms in the arupavacara Brahma realms, EXCEPT for the nevasaññānāsaññāyatana realm. Those three realms have the four “nama khandhas” but no rupakkhandha (the only rupa in those realms is the hadaya vatthu of those Brahmas.)
– Pañcavokārabhava (with four khandhas) includes all other realms EXCEPT for the nevasaññānāsaññāyatana realm. Those include ALL realms in the kama loka and also those in the rupa loka, except for the rupavacara asaññā realm.
– The nevasaññānāsaññāyatana realm has only the “saññākkhandha” (saññā khandha) but that also exists only intermittently. Nevasaññānāsaññā means “saññā” disappears and comes back in a cyclic manner.

[Author]

Posts