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There are many “self-claimed Arahants” in Sri Lanka.
That is all I can say. Others are welcome to comment, but it is not our position to deny claims by others.
– However, one problem with the above account is that it is not possible to attain Arahanthood and remain a “householder” for more than 7 days, as we have discussed in this forum.“Mr. Goenka teaches the students to practice samphassa-ja-vedana in ones daily activities.”
I don’t think that statement is true based on accounts that I have personally heard from friends who attended those sessions.
– I don’t think those instructors even know the phrase “samphassa-ja-vedana.”I am not saying that going to those sessions is bad. It may serve the purpose of temporary relief from daily stresses. I have a friend who, several months after a session, says it is time to go back to “get that same experience.”
– Of course, I don’t even discuss this subject with my friend. I just listen to what he has to say.Different people teach Dhamma differently and at various levels. Also, different people understand Dhamma at different levels. That is how it has been always.
– This is all I am going to say for now on this topic.Again, please provide the page # of the book:
“According to Ven. Bodhi, no heart-base is produced for that realm (only the vital nonad).”
OK. I am glad that you heard the story directly from Waharaka Thero’s discourse.
T did a search for “Pilindavaccha” and did not come up with a Tipitaka reference for that account. But sometimes Waharaka Thero accidentally gets the name wrong. It is possible the Arahant’s name is not “Pilindavaccha”.
– Also, this account may not be in a sutta, but in the Vinaya Pitaka.Raj asked: “The common understanding is that the Buddha said that there is no self, but the question is what gets liberated?”
The Buddha never taught that there is no “self”. He did not teach there is a “self” either. He said those two are extremes. At every moment a living being exists due to causes accumulated in the past and conditions prevailing at that time (So, there is a “sufferer” at each moment.) That is explained in Paticca Samuppada. I plan to discuss this in detail in upcoming posts.
Based on that misinterpretation of anatta as “no-self”, a question that many people ask is what you asked in a different way: “Who attains Nibbana?”
Here is what the Buddha taught:
1. We all go through a rebirth process where one can be born human, Deva, animal, etc. Where one is reborn depends on what type of kamma (good or bad deeds) one has done not only in this life but also in previous lives.
2. The concept of “me” cannot be retained in that view. If one is reborn as an animal, then “WHO” is it? That animal or the human in the previous life?
3. Since most rebirths are in “bad realms” (like the animal realm), the Buddha said there is much more suffering in the rebirth process, even though pleasures are also there (for example, some humans don’t suffer that much, at least until old age).
4. Thus, there is no “me” in ultimate reality, However, as mentioned above, there is a “sufferer” until the rebirth process ends!
5. That “suffering-filled rebirth process” can be stopped by understanding how that rebirth process takes place. That is the teaching of the Buddha. It is called Paticca Samuppada. When one understands that process, one can see how to end the rebirth process.“Anatta” does not mean “no-self”:
“Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta“First of all, this topic is better suited for the Abhidhamma section. But it is too late now to move it there.
Regarding Question #1 and #2 of TripleGemStudent:
It seems that this section of Paticcasamuppadavibhanga MAY HAVE some mistakes.
– However, without spending a lot of time I cannot say for sure.
– As I mentioned in the earlier comment, within each Paticca Samuppada cycle, there are 4 sub-cycles. This is why the Buddha told Ven. Ananda that Paticca Samuppada can get to very deep levels. See, “Mahānidāna Sutta DN 15)” English translation there: “The Great Discourse on Causation”
– The way it is written, it is very difficult to sort out the sequences involved in the 4 sub-cycles as I explained to Seng Kiat last year in an email exchange. Hopefully, that will make it clear somewhat. Obviously, this complex process cannot be described in a post or even a couple of posts. But you can get a rough idea of the complexity involved.Seng Kiat:
In the Kusala-Mūla Paṭicca Samuppāda topic under #3, the “ viññāṇapaccayā nāmarūpa, nāmarūpa paccayā saḷāyatana, saḷāyatana paccayā phasso” should be replaced with “ viññāṇapaccayā nāmaṃ, nāmapaccayā chaṭṭhāyatanaṃ, chaṭṭhāyatanapaccayā phasso”.
The nāma and chaṭṭāyatana are mentioned only in the Vibhaṅga of Tipiṭaka Abhidhamma section 6 Paṭiccasamuppādavibhaṅga under “2.2 Kusalaniddesa 2.10.1. 2.10.1 Kāmāvacarakusalacitta 2.10.1.1. Mahākusalacitta”.
The chaṭṭāyatana is the sixth āyatana which is the mind (mano).
#6 nāma only without the rūpa.
#7 (nāma only) and #8 saḷāyatana also to be replaced with chaṭṭhāyatana.
My Reply:
This is a bit complex process that you mentioned. There are three more steps to it, to complete. You may be able to see that if you read further there.
The process that I describe in the post is the NET RESULT.
It is section 2. 2 Abhidhammabhājanīya close to the beginning of the webpage:
https://suttacentral.net/vb6/pli/msThe KUSALA-MULA process that you refer to comes much later.
The Vibhanga (for some reason) explains ONLY the AKUSALA-MULA PS process in detail (over many pages until the KUSALA-MULA section that you refer to.
I would not have been able to figure that out if I did not have access to the discourses of Waharaka Thero. He explained that in detail.
As I said previously, “It is not easy to follow those 16 cycles. There are 4 cycles each for 2.1. Paccayacatukka, 2.2. Hetucatukka, 2.3. Sampayuttacatukka, 2.4. Aññamaññacatukka.
That means for four types of paccaya: paccaya, hetu, sampayutta, Aññamañña.
– As you can see there are four cycles (catukka) within each.”Such a DETAILED analysis is NOT given for the KUSALA-MULA process.
– It just stops after the first step in a 16-step process.
– But if you go through the AKUSALA-MULA steps you may be able to see what I am trying to say.
– It seems that part of the Vibhanga did not get transmitted!
– It is too bad that Waharaka Thero is not there to ask.I need to take a look at it before commenting.
However, note that in the second question, “..viññāṇapaccayā nāmaṁ, nāmapaccayā chaṭṭhāyatanaṁ,..” instead of the usual “..vinnana paccaya namarupam, namarupa paccaya salayatanam..”
– There are 4 sub-Paticca Samuppada cycles running within each PS cycle. I believe that is what the Paticcasamuppadavibhanga described, per the above quote.
I have avoided this subject because it is too complex for most people to understand. And it is not necessary to go into such detail either.
It is very hard to get rid of one’s convictions.
– If you read the accounts given by many Goenka fans above in this thread that is quite clear.The bottom line is Vedananupassana is about “samphassa-ja-vedana.”
– Trying to attach that to bodily vedana cannot be justified in any way. Of course, one can contemplate the anicca nature of the body. That does not require one to undergo MORE suffering!
– This physical body is a “vipaka of the previous kamma” and will be subjected to various types of kamma vipaka due to kamma done in the past. The Buddha also experienced back pains, etc. He did not try to “meditate the way out of that suffering.” He had removed all lobha, dosa, moha without a trace, and thus had removed causes for suffering in FUTURE LIVES. But he had to bear the physical body and any kamma vipaka it is subjected to, until the death of his physical body.
– But this physical body can ALSO be subjected to kamma vipaka due to kamma done with unwise actions at any time, as I explained above.In any case, it is up to each individual to proceed the way he/she wants.
P.S. I am not saying that training the body to sit in the lotus position is a bad idea. If one does it gradually, the body will change to accommodate that position and then one can sit in that position comfortably for a long time.
– But we should not confuse that as a benefit of “meditation”.Yes. My statement there referred to ALL Buddhas.
The human lifetime is variable.
– Even though these days it is about 100 years, during some Buddhas it lasted many thousands of years. As I remember, it was quite long even during the time of Kassapa Buddha, who appeared before Gotama Buddha during this Maha Kappa.Hello Daniel,
I am not aware of a sutta that directly says a Sakadagami would not be born below the Deva realms. It is possible that there is.
– However, we can easily deduce that because a Sakadagami has lost “vatthu kama” the desire to “own olarika sensory objects.” Thus he/she could only be born with a sukuma rupa, i.e., in Deva realms. Even though kama raga anusaya is much reduced it is not eliminated like for an Anagami.“When a human achieves Sakadagami magga phala, he will be born in Deva realm one his physical body is dead, right? Even if his bhava would still have more kammic energy left (because it is an anantarika kamma) Is that correct?”
– Yes. That is correct.“The second question is about the Buddha’s Sasana and 5000 years. Here, everybody also believes in 5000 years. But when I research a source, I cannot find much clear sources. Some sources say even 500, and so on. You wrote in one article, I think, that it can also be 5000-80000?”
– No. I have never written that the Buddha Sasana can last 5000-80000 years. Please don’t quote me unless you can give the post and bullet # where I make such statements.
– The Gotami Sutta (AN 8.51) has the following verse: “Sace, ānanda, nālabhissa mātugāmo tathāgatappavedite dhammavinaye agārasmā anagāriyaṃ pabbajjaṃ, ciraṭṭhitikaṃ, ānanda, brahmacariyaṃ abhavissa, vassasahassameva saddhammo tiṭṭheyya. Yato ca kho, ānanda, mātugāmo tathāgatappavedite dhammavinaye agārasmā anagāriyaṃ pabbajito, na dāni, ānanda, brahmacariyaṃ ciraṭṭhitikaṃ bhavissati. Pañceva dāni, ānanda, vassasatāni saddhammo ṭhassati.”
Translated: “But, Ānanda, if women had not obtained permission to bear the robes, the Buddha Sasana would have lasted 1,000 years. But now that I have given them permission, the Sasana will last only 500 years.”However, there is at least one sutta that says as long as true Dhamma will not totally disappear and there will be people who will be able to attain Nibbana. I hope someone may remember the name of that sutta and post it.
It is quite clear that the number of Arahants decreased dramatically 500 years after the Parinibbana of the Buddha. The fourth Buddhist Council held in Sri Lanka (when the Tipitaka was written down) was attained by all Arahants. That was about 450 years after the Parinibbana of the Buddha.
– But after that number of Arahants decreased rapidly. But there will always be Arahants as long as the true Dhamma exists.
– I am not sure where the limit of 5000 years comes from. Again, if someone knows, I would like to know that too.P.S. I may have casually mentioned the 5000-year limit (not 50000), but that is only because that number is commonly quoted. In fact, Waharaka Thero had also mentioned that number, as I recall.
Thank you, Lang. You have understood!
Bodily vedana are due to kamma vipaka.
– But “kamma vipaka” do not necessarily mean “vipaka due to kamma done in the past” even though that is a big part.
– Vipaka for actions can materialize right away. For example, if one jumps off a cliff (kamma or action), he is going to be subjected to a lot of physical pain, if not death (kamma vipaka).
– When people feel bodily sensations (mostly due to postures that they are not used to), those are results of “getting into such uncomfortable postures”! It is as simple as that.
– But those instructors keep saying “bear the pain and it will go away”. It will go away due to one of two reasons. The body may get used to it gradually or in the worst case, the pain may go away when nerves are damaged. Either way, it has nothing to do with vedananupassana!As we can see, vedanupassana (and kayanupassana, cittanupassana) can be done in any posture, at any time! But Dhammanupassana is best done in “formal mediation”. However, the other three types of “anupasana” involve Dhammanupassana.
– I hope to provide a detailed discussion in the upcoming posts.Yes. As Lang wrote, in vedananupassana, one needs to be mindful about “samphassa-ja-vedana” via defiled thoughts, as I explained in my first response to the comments by raj.
– There, I gave references to read.
– Those who have not yet understood should read those recommended posts. Please feel free to ask questions, AFTER reading them. People start asking more questions/make comments without reading recommended material. It is a complete waste of time!
– Don’t think Buddha Dhamma can be understood by just reading a post or two.I do understand that we have been put in this position due to wrong teachings over many hundreds of years. So, it is going to be a bit difficult to discard those wrong views/practices. But it MUST be done to make progress.
#1 I think it is time to write a couple of posts on “bhavana.” I will try to do that in the coming weeks.
#2 Yes. Jhana and abhinna powers seem to be connected.
– But that does not mean everyone needs to CULTIVATE jhana. How did Minister Santati or Ven. Culapanthaka attain abhinna powers? Did they cultivate jhanas?
– Of course, one could cultivate ANARIYA jhana to higher levels (above the fourth jhana) and attain abhinna powers. Devadatta did. But he lost all that and was reborn in a niraya!#3. We do know that Angulimala killed almost a thousand people. Did he not attain Arahanthood?
– Unless one has done an anantara papa kamma (killing a parent,an Arahant, etc), even Arahanthood is not ruled out.
– “Account of Angulimāla – Many Insights to Buddha Dhamma”#4 Yes.
#5 The term “cetovimutti” implies vimutti, which normally refers to Nibbana.
– I don’t think the word cetovimutti can be used to describe any person who has attained even the highest jhana and abhinna powers. Obviously, Devadatta had not attained cetovimutti. He had cultivated anariya jhana and also had abhinna powers at one time. He ended up in a niraya.
– Those who attain Ariya jhana and cultivate them all the way to the highest gets to Arahanthood; they are Cetovimutta Arahants. But there are pannavimutta Arahants who had not cultivated jhana and attain Nibbana. Then there are Arahants like Ven. Sariputta, Ven. Culapanthaka, Minister Santati who are both cetovimutta and pannavimutta Arahants.No matter how much I try to explain, it does not seem to convey the message.
P.S.
I think it is time to write a couple of posts on “bhavana.” I will try to do that in the coming weeks. Questions keep coming up because most people think “bhavana” requires one to sit like a statue.– The problem is to use the word “meditation” as the translation of “bhavana”, especially if the word “meditation” implies sitting down and staying like a statue.
raj wrote: “The vipassana technique is explained in depth in the Chachaka sutta MN 148 (six sets of six) where the Buddha tells us to train and be disenchanted to the sensations. By sitting without moving one can experience the sensation of pain dissolve and disappear, once can witness and experience the truth of anicca (all sensations are temporary).”
This is a complete misunderstanding of Chachaka sutta AND vedananupassana in Satipatthana bhavana.
Chachaka sutta MN 148 is about samphassa, samphassa-ja-vedana, and how those lead to attachment to sensory inputs and accumulation of bad kamma.
– Vedananupassana is all about being aware of such “samphassa-ja-vedana” and stopping them from arising.As I have discussed in many posts, samphassa (san + phassa) arises when lobha, dosa, moha arise in a mind.
– For example, upon seeing eye-catching object greed and greed-induced joyful sensation arises and we get attached to it. When seeing an enemy angry thoughts can arise. Both could lead to unwise actions.In Satipatthana bhavana, one needs to be mindful and not attach to such “samphassa-ja-vedana” and act unwisely. That is being mindful.
– It is NOT about bodily feelings!I just did a search for “samphassa” and came up with the following results:
“Search Results for: samphassa”Please read some of those and try to understand the basis of real Bhavana.
I have also discussed the Chachakka Sutta in detail in a series of posts:
“Is There a “Self”?”It would be worthwhile to spend some time reading some posts in the above two links.
