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I think there are two main aspects to be considered.
1. Upadana plays a big role. Again, there are two instances where upadana comes to play.
– The first is when one gets a human bhava upon exhausting kammic energy in the previous bhava. For example, if a Deva dies and grasps a human bhava, that is according to “upadana paccaya bhava” at the cuti-patisandhi moment.
– The second instance is when a human gandhabba enters a womb. This is the case that Dawson is addressing. Here again, upadana plays a big role.2. As we have discussed in the section, “Concepts of Upādāna and Upādānakkhandha” upadana plays a major role even during life with a human body.
– In particular, see “Generating Kammic Energy in the ‘Upādāna Paccayā Bhava’ Step.”3. A gandhabba is drawn to a womb based on many factors. As you pointed out, parents’ “gati” need to match. The other major factor is the upadana of the gandhabba. A gandhabba is mostly drawn to an environment that he/she has a liking for. There are several accounts in the Tipitaka that make this clear. I don’t have the sutta references (maybe those who know can post), but a few are the following.
– The “Tirokuṭṭa Sutta (Kp 7)” describes how a gandhabba of a recently died person is drwan to that same home in many cases. A reasonable English translation: “The Beyond the Walls Discourse”
– Another account that comes to my mind: There was a bhikkhu who was very fond of a certain robe. His attachment (upadana) for the robe made him be reborn a tick on that same robe. In that case, his kammic energy for the human bhava was exhausted. His upadana for the robe (combined with other kammic factors) led to that extraordinary rebirth.
– Another factor is the following: When we talk about “gati” it is not just lobha gati, dosa gati, and moha gati. Other habits/tendencies come into play. This could be the reason for most rebirths accounts by children indicate that previous births were in the same region with similar customs, tendencies, etc. (as I mentioned in my previous post, per Professor Steveson’s studies.)
– It is a very complex subject. This is why only a Buddha is capable of analyzing kammic effects for a particular situation.The other factor that comes into play is a technical one.
4. The universe in infinite and there are uncountable “10,000 world systems” or lokadhatu in the universe. I have given a brief description in the post, “Buddhism and Evolution – Aggañña Sutta (DN 27).”
– Even a Buddha can travel (or can communicate) only among those 10,000 systems, and not beyond that. Others have access to much smaller parts based on their abhinna powers. See, “Cūḷanikā Sutta (AN 3.80)” The English translation there is not that good: “80. Lesser”
– There is an account in the Tipitaka that describes how Ven. Moggalana “got lost” while traveling through the lokadhatu. See #18 of the post on Agganna Sutta.
– The point here is that it would be impossible that a gandhabba to cross over to other “world systems.” Even birth in a different planetary system within the 10,000 systems is highly unlikely. As we saw above, the rebirths of a gandhabba are highly localized.Hello Dawson,
You asked: “If there are countless other planetary systems out there, then why is it that we’re limited to this particular one to exist in? If there are an infinite number of beings, then there’ll be an infinite set of potential parents whose gati matches ours and thus, there would be no need to wait”
It is an interesting question. I need to think about it a bit more.
1. But the following is an observation from the rebirth accounts of children by Professor Ian Stevenson.
– Rebirths within a human bhava are observed to be highly local. For example, a person dying in India seems to be reborn in that region. For a person dying in England, rebirths are unlikely to happen in India.
– However, there are a few exceptions in his studies.2. So, from observations, it appears that rebirths outside a planetary system must be extremely rare.
I will think about this some more. Hopefully, others may have some ideas too.
The sutta in question is “Vitakkasaṇṭhāna Sutta“.
It is not easy to translate a sutta in a forum response. I will try to make a post in the future. But let me try to give the essence of the sutta.
1. A living being (satta or satva) manifests because of the akusala-mula Paticca Samuppada (PS) processes.
– As you can see the “whole mass of suffering” starts with “avijja paccaya sankhara”. But avijja does not arise without causes.
– Avijja arises when we come across a sensory input that “matches” our gati. We have, in broad terms, lobha gati, dosa, gati, and moha gati.2. When a sensory input comes that “matches our gati” then we attach to it with samphassa-ja-vedana. See, “Dukkha Samudaya Starts With Samphassa-Jā-Vedanā”
– That is when we start acting with avijja, i.e., that is when we start doing (abhi) sankhara with “avijja paccaya sankhara”.3. Therefore, the key to stopping those akusala-mula PS processes is to stay mindful and stop such attachments.
– The first thing that happens when we come across such a sensory input (arammana) is that we start thinking about it. Those thoughts are vaci sankhara and they arise with vitakka/vicara. They are also called sankappa.
– There are “bad sankappa” or “bad vitakka” associated with lobha, dosa, moha. They are kama vitakka, vyapada vitakka, and vihimsa vitakka (corresponding greed, anger, ignorance). Of course, we need to stop them and cultivate the opposites: nekkamma vitakka, avyapada vitakka, and avihimsa vitakka.4. The “Vitakkasaṇṭhāna Sutta” discussed five ways to control such bad vitakka. I will briefly list them:
(i) When such bad thoughts connected with desire, hate, and delusion start arising, one should suppress those thoughts by instead focusing on the opposite vitakka. For example, if it is an angry thought towards someone, one should start generating metta toward that person.
(ii) If that does not work one should think about the bad consequences of such bad vitakka. That such bad thoughts/actions can lead to bad vipaka, both in this life and in future lives.
(iii) One should try to avoid such sensory inputs. For example, avoid coming face-to-face with adversaries, avoid gambling places, etc.
(iv) In some cases, one can look at the root cause for such akusala vitakka to come to mind. For example, if thoughts arise to hit someone, think about why that would be necessary or what would be the real reason for such drastic action. You may realize that it was a misunderstanding that led to the confrontation.
(v) If none of those work, one should stop such bad vitakka by force as the last resort: With teeth clenched and tongue pressed against the roof of the mouth, make firm determination that “I will not sustain such thoughts”. Yes. you need to literally clench the teeth and press the tongue against the roof of the mouth. Try and see. That takes the mind away from those thoughts, because you are focusing on that.Anyway, I hope you get the idea. Now if you read the translation that you quoted, you may be able to understand it better.
Yes. This is a good question. I will answer briefly and maybe need to add a post to the recent section on “Concepts of Upādāna and Upādānakkhandha”
1. We are bound to the samsaric process because of 4 types of upadana (this is just one way to look at how the rebirth process is maintained): diṭṭhupādāna, sīlabbatupādāna, kāmupādāna, and attavādupādāna.
– I have re-arranged the terms in the order that they are removed while cultivating the Noble Path.2. A living-being (satta or satva) manifests because of the akusala-mula Paticca Samuppada (PS) processes.
– As you can see the “whole mass of suffering” starts with “avijja paccaya sankhara”. But avijja does not arise without causes.
– Avijja arises when we come across a sensory input that “matches” our gati. We have, in broad terms, lobha gati, dosa, gati, and moha gati.3. Those gati can be looked at in terms of upadana.
– When one does not understand the PS enough, one has diṭṭhupādāna. Because of that one also thinks that living a moral life is good enough. That is sīlabbatupādāna.
– When one becomes at least a Sotapanna Anugami and starts comprehending PS/Tilakkhana/Noble Truths, one gets rid of those two types of upadana.4. However, even a Sotapanna has only removed those wrong views or diṭṭhi vipallasa. He/she would still have sanna and citta vipallasa.
– When a Sotapanna cultivates the anicca sanna, dukkha sanna, anatta sanna, he can gradually remove the “tendency to attach to sensual pleasures” or kama raga. When that is complete he would have also removed kāmupādāna.5. The last one remove is the “sense of a me” or “asmi mana” and that is removed at the Arahant stage. That is the citta vipallasa. In terms of upadana, it is the attavādupādāna. Of course, this “sense of me” is the hardest to remove. Avijja completely disappears only at that time.
Also, see, “Vipallāsa (Diṭṭhi, Saññā, Citta) Affect Saṅkhāra“
Hello Zapper,
1. I definitely DO NOT do any standard kasina or breath meditations. That should be clear to anyone.
2. I don’t try to get into jhanas in any case. But when I meditate on the anicca, dukkha, anatta nature (Tilakkhana) I get into “jhanic-like” states. I just don’t have the mindset to cultivate jhanas.
– Anyone who has comprehended Tilakkhana will get into jhanas while in meditation (they just go in and out of jhana). It is just that to stay in jhanas for long times (jhana samapatti) one must practice a lot. But there are some people (who had cultivated jhanas in recent past lives) who can easily get into jhana samapatti. Obviously, I am not one of them.
– My goal is not to enjoy “jhanic pleasures.” My goal is to stop the rebirth process completely ASAP.3. Not only any human, but ANY living being has attained the highest jhanas in their past. That is why jhanas are not a “big deal.”
– Of course, nothing wrong with getting into jhanas. In fact, there are benefits in cultivating jhanas. The problem arises when one starts enjoying the “jhanic pleasures” and forget that it is only a temporary state (even if one will be reborn in a Brahma realm and can enjoy such “jhanic pleasures” for millions of years). Eventually, they all end up in lower realms as animals or worse. In other words, any animal living today would have been born in a Brahma realm in the deep past.
– My advice to those who are obsessed with jhanas is to point out the account of Devadatta. He was able to attain the highest jhanas and had supernormal powers as well (all via anariya jhanas). But he ended up losing all that and was reborn in hell (niraya) because of his immoral activities.Paul:
Breath meditation may provide temporary relaxation, but that is not what Buddha Dhamma is about.– That is a deeper aspect that cannot be understood if one does not believe in the rebirth process.
Thank you both!
I have added that explanation to #1 on the post, “Akusala-Mūla Upapatti Paṭicca Samuppāda“
“I wonder if we can think along the same way here: there is no “san” in indriya, but “san” is involved in ayatana.”
– Almost right! A little bit better to say: “there is no “san” involved when using sensory faculties as indriya, but “san” is involved when they are used as ayatana.”
“However, if this is the case, then I remember reading about nibbana some time ago, in a post where nibbana was referred to as tadayatana. I wonder why ayatana was used there in the context of nibbana; “tadayatana” sounds like a contradiction in terms.
– The post you refer to is: “Nibbāna “Exists”, but Not in This World”
– The word “āyatana” is used there for the lack of a term to describe Nibbana. None of our words are applicable and “sphere” or “dimension” may be the closest that we can use. It has nothing to do with the 6 six sense faculties. I have revised the #4 of that post to make it a bit more clear.“Aṭṭī” means bones. Aṭṭīyati means for a person to consider mind-leasing things as useless as a dog wasting time chewing on a bone.
In the plural, it is “aṭṭīyeyyātha”:
Devaloka Sutta“Aṭṭīyāmi” is “I consider ..”:
Vijayā SuttaI don’t remember offhand the details, but the categorization “ekavokārabhavo, catuvokārabhavo, pañcavokārabhavo” is another way to describe 31 realms.
Kammic energy (which can remain for long times) is “deposited” as “kamma bhava.” That is the common name.
– They are created via all possible types of saṅkhāra: “Tattha katamo kammabhavo? Puññābhisaṅkhāro, apuññābhisaṅkhāro, āneñjābhisaṅkhāro.”
– This is explained in “Idappaccayātā Paṭicca Samuppāda”However, “strong kammic energies” (created within the above 3 categories of saṅkhāra) that can fuel future rebirths fall under “upapatti bhava” as the name implies.
– Those are associated with the corresponding “plane of existence”: “Tattha katamo upapattibhavo? Kāmabhavo, rūpabhavo, arūpabhavo, saññābhavo, asaññābhavo, nevasaññānāsaññābhavo, ekavokārabhavo, catuvokārabhavo, pañcavokārabhavo— ayaṁ vuccati “upapattibhavo”.
– This is “Akusala-Mūla Upapatti Paṭicca Samuppāda”Of course, neither type of kamma bhava can play a role after one attains Arahanthood via, “Kusala-Mula Paṭicca Samuppāda”
– Those kammic energies would still be there. But an Arahant would not have “upadana” for them.Yes. Waharaka Thero has explained it the following way:
A householder or a layperson cannot bear “the Arahanthood.” One must become a bhikkhu and wear the yellow robe within 7 days of attaining Arahanthood.
– The following is an analogy: A heated heater coil will be fine as long as it is submerged in water. If that heater coil is taken out of the water, it will burn.
