Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Tobias wrote:
“The reply from Seng Kiat should give the answer: all six are called dhammārammaṇa. Thus it is clear, that a dhammā is cognized by the mind door process with a manodvaravajjanacitta.”It is quite clear that a dhammā is cognized by the mind-door process with a manodvaravajjana citta.
– I thought your original question was why that process is not listed in Table 1.3 on p. 43 of Bhikkhu Bodhi’s CMA (A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma) book or in my post that you quoted.Regarding the comments by the TripleGemStudent:
The following posts could be helpful: “How Are Paṭicca Samuppāda Cycles Initiated?” and “Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda for Vipāka Viññāṇa”
– Those are a bit deep.
– A vipaka vinnana, arising with a cakkhu vinnana for example, does not have consciously-made lobha, dosa, moha. However, that citta also goes through the 9-step process and thus one’s gati are incorporated. I think that is the simplest answer to your questions.My answer to Tobias’s question is as follows:
A human with ahetuka/dvihetuka (Bhikkhu Bodhi’s book has it as ahetuka/duhetuka) birth cannot attain magga phala OR jhanas in this human bhava.
– I think that is what Bhikkhu Bodhi is trying to say there. The discussion on that page is on (ahetuka) and double-rooted (dvihetuka) individuals.
– One MUST have a triple-rooted kamma (with all three “good roots” of alobha, adosa, amoha) giving rise to a “tihetuka birth” to be able to attain magga phala/jhana.By the way, dvihetuka birth is brought by a kamma done with two “good roots”: amoha/alobha OR amoha/adosa.
– An ahetuka birth there DOES MEAN “without any roots” (i.e., no alobha, adosa, or amoha). That kamma may have just alobha or adosa without any understanding. The word “ahetuka” refers to the “helpless nature” of such a birth.
– While a dvihetuka person can accumulate punna kamma that can lead to a tihetuka birth in the future, a person who has an “ahetuka birth” is not capable of that. Those are persons born with severe disabilities.Furthermore, it is NOT possible to determine whether a given person is dvihetuka or tihetuka.
– This is a tricky issue and sometimes people get discouraged whether they have a dvihetuka birth. For example, Ven. Culapanthaka almost gave up the robes because he could not memorize even a single verse. But he had a tihetuka birth. A previous akusala kamma had been “covering his mind”. Luckily the Buddha was there to see that and to give an appropriate kammatthana to overcome that situation. He attained Arahanthood overnight.
– So, we all should assume that we have tihetuka births and make effort. That effort will bear fruit either way.1. First I want to make a comment on the discussion between Lang and Tobias.
Here we need to make a distinction between “recalling past memory” and a “dhammā coming to the mind”.
– Recalling a past memory (namagotta with no kammic energy) REQUIRES us making an effort to recall that memory.
– On the other hand, a dhammā can come to the mind as a kamma vipaka. A dhammā has kammic energy.
– That is important to understand.Therefore, a memory of a friend cannot just come to the mind by itself (via namagotta).
– It was probably initiated by a dhammā coming to the mind as a kamma vipaka. In response, one may recall other related memories.2. My second comment is on the original issue: How does a kamma vipaka come DIRECTLY to the mind-door (as a dhammā)? That is not listed in Table 1.3 on p. 43 of Bhikkhu Bodhi’s book (or my posts).
– This may be what Bhikkhu Bodhi is trying to explain on p. 164 at the bottom of the page:
“(2) An independent mind-door process occurs when any of the six sense objects enters the range of cognition entirely on its own, not as a consequence of an immediately preceding sense-door process..”
– The end of the above statement refers to the fact that each five-door sense detection (with a citta vithi of 17 citta) is ALWAYS followed by 3 manodvara citta vithi. I have not discussed this in my posts, I believe.
– So, by “An independent mind-door process” he probably means a sense detection initiated without coming through the five sense-doors, i.e., a mind-door process initiated by a dhammā coming directly to the mind-door. But his explanation is not clear. He is quoting Ledi Sayadaw’s speculation, I believe. No reference to the Tipitaka is given.
– So, the original question remains unanswered so far (unless I missed something in Bhikkhu Bodhi’s explanation).Yes. The “mind-door adverting” citta (M) corresponds to the “five-door adverting” citta (F) in Bhikkhu Bodhi’s book.
Those two cittas correspond to PD and MV citta in my post on citta vithi:
“Citta Vīthi – Processing of Sense Inputs”But that does not resolve the issue. Does it?
This is a good question. I need to think about this further.
In the book, “Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma” Bhikkhu Bodhi has listed these cittas on p. 43. That is the same as what I have in the post.
– But I see the point that Tobias is making. Unwholesome/wholesome vipaka can come through the mana indriya (as dhammā).If anyone has any ideas, please post.
I think it is best not to mix Buddha Dhamma with concepts in Yoga or other Vedic teachings. As I have mentioned before, such teachings are distorted versions of the Buddha Dhamma.
– Even during Buddha Gotama’s time, such teachings were there coming from the Buddha Kassapa (the Buddha preceding Buddha Gotama). – A brief description of that at: “Arōgyā Paramā Lābhā..”
– As a reminder, there had been three Buddhas before Buddha Gotama on this Earth (i.e., during this Maha Kappa).Question 1: Mano sankhara arise automatically based on our gati and the particular sense-object (without conscious thinking.)
– Then if we start consciously thinking or speaking about the subject matter, those involve vaci sankhara.
– If we go further and take bodily actions, those involve kaya sankhara.
– It is important to understand the types of sankhara; “Saṅkhāra – What It Really Means”Question 2: What you are doing is exactly right. When negative/immoral thoughts come to the mind you need to shift the mind to the opposite of those (or at least to something different). That is the correct Anapanasati meditation.
“It seems like nirodha samapatti bliss of Nibbana is a higher grade / a step above Arahant-phala samapatti?”
-Yes.
Thanks, Lang, for posting the relevant links!
The short answer to the question, ” is there a limit like nirodha samapatti on how long an Arahant can stay in Arahant-Phala samapatti?”:
– No. There is no limit to how long one can stay in Arahant-Phala samapatti.
– That also holds for jhana samapatti. In a regular jhana, one goes in and out of jhana (and could be aware of the surroundings.) But in a jhana samapatti one is totally absorbed in the jhana, and only jhana citta flow uninterrupted.To add to Seng Kiat’s comment:
Citta vithi completely cease in Nirodha Samapatti.
– That is different from Arahant-phala Samapatti.Hello Raj:
The 16-step Anapanasati meditation is really for those who have attained the Sotapanna stage. I have not done a post on that yet. (See the P.S. below).
First, one needs to understand that Anapanasati is NOT breath meditation.
I have referred you to several posts on that earlier. Apparently, you don’t read what I suggest OR just read but don’t grasp the material. In any case, it is a good idea to read the posts in the Meditation section:
“Bhāvanā (Meditation)”
– The difference between Anapanasati and breath meditation is discussed in several posts there.It is a good idea to read that section from the beginning. Most people are looking for “fancy meditation techniques.” But we need to understand that Nibbana is “ragakkhaya, dosakkhaya, mohakkhaya” or getting rid of “greed, hate/anger/ignorance (of the Noble Truths).
– So, one needs to start at a basic level and build upon that basic foundation.By the time you have read the posts in that section, hopefully, you will understand how Ariya Metta Bhavana works.
Don’t worry. I understand that there is so much stuff out there and it is hard to figure out who is right.
– I cannot say I am right. But I do point out the inconsistencies in some stuff out there.
– It is up to each person to decide.My advice is to stop trying to read/listen to all that is out there. Just focus on one path for some time. If that doesn’t seem to be right then try another.
As far as English discourses by others, I think those by “Dharmayai Obayi” seem to be good. I have listened to a couple, and some people on this forum have commented that they are good.
P.S. Anapanasati is the SAME as Satipatthana. To put it another way, when one cultivates Anapanasati, one would automatically cultivate Satipatthana. That is stated in the Anapanasati Sutta (MN 118).
– It is just that cultivation of Anapanasati/Satipatthana would have optimum results AFTER the Sotapanna stage.
– You can read the posts on Satipatthana here: “Mahā Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta”
– But I would recommend going through the Meditation section BEFORE reading these posts.I had a bit of time this morning, so I listened to a little bit more of the above discourse. But I could not proceed beyond about 12 minutes.
I ran into the same issue that I mentioned above again. Around 9:55 Bhikkhu Thanissaro says “your consciousness gets MIXED UP with the consciousnesses of those parasites in your body”.
This shows a clear lack of understanding of how consciousness arises.
Our consciousness (and thoughts) arise in the hadaya vatthu (seat of the mind) located in our mental body (gandhabba).
– In the same way, the consciousness of a parasite arises in its hadaya vatthu.
– There is no way that they can “get mixed up.”
– A parasite in our physical body is no different from millions of external microscopic/macroscopic beings our bodies come to contact with.Of course, various external factors can indirectly INFLUENCE our consciousness.
– For example, if parasites in our gut cause digestion problems, that will affect our mindset, because we need to worry about that problem.
– But that is not any different from our mental state being affected by someone saying something harsh or causes bodily harm to us.This is why we need to be careful. That discourse seems harmless, and even sounds a “bit deep”. But it is based on a false premise. No one with even a bit of Abhidhamma knowledge will say such a thing.
– By the way, I had previously listened to a discourse by the same bhikkhu on Anapana meditation and that is also completely wrong. He describes that as a “16-step breath meditation”. But those 16 steps are NOT what the Buddha described in the Anapanasati Sutta.Please do not post any discourses by that bhikkhu in this forum. While some may have useful information, I don’t have time to listen to them to make sure.
I listened to the first part of it. That discourse does not seem to be relevant.
– What is the relevance of the consciousness of other (parasite beings) living in our bodies to our efforts to attain Nibbana? How are such living beings different from other living beings who live around us? Just because they live in our bodies does not make any difference.These are distractions. I will leave it. But please do not bring these irrelevant things to the discussion here.
The cells in our body are NOT different living beings. They are part of our physical body.
But there are small/microscopic living beings mostly in our gut, and even on the skin!
– So, it is possible that some of those living beings can cause problems. However, most in the gut actually help us in various ways. I am sure if you find more information on that by doing a Google search. But please don’t post them here.
