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Comments by Daniel:
Daniel: “In the unwholesome-vipaka list, there are the 5 that lead to the 5 senses- event that Lal list in his article.”
– Yes. They are also listed on p. 43 Table 1.3 in CMA (book by Bhikkhu Bodhi).
– There 5 more for wholesome-vipaka listed in the same Table.
– All those come through the 5 physical senses.Daniel: “Then there are two more unwholesome-resultants, the receiving and investigating consciousness.”
– Those are NOT the initial vipaka citta. They are two cittas that follow the vipaka citta in a citta vithi with 17 citta representing a sense input coming through the 5 physical senses; see. p. 155 of CMA.
– So, those two citta are NOT vipaka citta initiating a manodvara process.What I am saying is that there is no citta on Table 1.3 representing a vipaka citta coming through the manodvara.
– If you look at the 6 processes that Tobias posted in his first post at the top of this thread:
cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpē ca uppajjāti cakkhuviññāṇaṃ,
sōtañca paṭicca saddē ca uppajjāti sōtaviññāṇaṃ,
ghānañca paṭicca gandhē ca uppajjāti ghānaviññāṇaṃ ,
jivhañca paṭicca rasē ca uppajjāti jivhāviññāṇaṃ,
kāyañca paṭicca phōṭṭhabbē ca uppajjāti kāyaviññāṇaṃ,
manañca paṭicca dhammē ca uppajjāti manōviññāṇaṃthere is no vipaka citta representing the 6th process that I highlighted above in Table 1.3.
– That is the issue to tackle.
– By the way, my post that Tobias referred to does not address that either. I just did not notice it at the time.Tobias asked: “I guess such a being still has a bhavanga flow?” (regarding an asanna satta).
Yes. The bhavanga is there, but no active citta vithi.
Tobias wrote: “No, a door freed citta performs the rebirth linking for every being.”
A citta DOES NOT perform rebirth linking.
– In the last citta vithi, at the fifth javana, creates the javana power to make the MINDSET (temporary bhavanga) for the kammic energy to create the next bhava. The “temporary bhavanga” is explained at: “State of Mind in the Absence of Citta Vithi – Bhavaṅga” and “Bhava and Bhavaṅga – Simply Explained!”
– Creation of the manomaya kaya i.e., the hadaya vatthu and any appropriate pasada rupa) is NOT done by a citta. It is done by kammic energy (that is why “gandhabba kaya” or “manomaya kaya” is a “kammaja kaya”).I cannot explain it any more than this right now. I need to finish the next post. But feel free to comment or raise questions.
– You and others can continue the discussion if needed. I will comment whenever I can.The statement on p. 138 of CMA:
“The object of the door-freed consciousness in any given existence is generally identical with the object of the last cognitive process in the immediately preceding existence..”Where does that “last cognitive process” comes in (for an arupavacara Brahma)?
– For a human, it can come through the five physical senses as well.Tobias: Your question (as I understood) is related to BOTH my post and Table 1.3 on p. 43 of Bhikkhu Bodhi’s CMA as I explained above.
You wrote: “I think it is remarkable that there is no akusala vipaka directly via the mind-door or via dhammā.”
– That is exactly the issue in my mind.
– Is it not possible that an akusala vipaka directly via the mind-door or via dhammā?
– I think it is not only possible but necesssary. For example, at the cuti-patisandhi moment, a vipaka bring the next bhava can come through any of the six senses. How does an arupavacara Brahma grasp the next bhava at the cuti-patisandhi moment? He has only the mind-door.Tobias wrote:
“The reply from Seng Kiat should give the answer: all six are called dhammārammaṇa. Thus it is clear, that a dhammā is cognized by the mind door process with a manodvaravajjanacitta.”It is quite clear that a dhammā is cognized by the mind-door process with a manodvaravajjana citta.
– I thought your original question was why that process is not listed in Table 1.3 on p. 43 of Bhikkhu Bodhi’s CMA (A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma) book or in my post that you quoted.Regarding the comments by the TripleGemStudent:
The following posts could be helpful: “How Are Paṭicca Samuppāda Cycles Initiated?” and “Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda for Vipāka Viññāṇa”
– Those are a bit deep.
– A vipaka vinnana, arising with a cakkhu vinnana for example, does not have consciously-made lobha, dosa, moha. However, that citta also goes through the 9-step process and thus one’s gati are incorporated. I think that is the simplest answer to your questions.My answer to Tobias’s question is as follows:
A human with ahetuka/dvihetuka (Bhikkhu Bodhi’s book has it as ahetuka/duhetuka) birth cannot attain magga phala OR jhanas in this human bhava.
– I think that is what Bhikkhu Bodhi is trying to say there. The discussion on that page is on (ahetuka) and double-rooted (dvihetuka) individuals.
– One MUST have a triple-rooted kamma (with all three “good roots” of alobha, adosa, amoha) giving rise to a “tihetuka birth” to be able to attain magga phala/jhana.By the way, dvihetuka birth is brought by a kamma done with two “good roots”: amoha/alobha OR amoha/adosa.
– An ahetuka birth there DOES MEAN “without any roots” (i.e., no alobha, adosa, or amoha). That kamma may have just alobha or adosa without any understanding. The word “ahetuka” refers to the “helpless nature” of such a birth.
– While a dvihetuka person can accumulate punna kamma that can lead to a tihetuka birth in the future, a person who has an “ahetuka birth” is not capable of that. Those are persons born with severe disabilities.Furthermore, it is NOT possible to determine whether a given person is dvihetuka or tihetuka.
– This is a tricky issue and sometimes people get discouraged whether they have a dvihetuka birth. For example, Ven. Culapanthaka almost gave up the robes because he could not memorize even a single verse. But he had a tihetuka birth. A previous akusala kamma had been “covering his mind”. Luckily the Buddha was there to see that and to give an appropriate kammatthana to overcome that situation. He attained Arahanthood overnight.
– So, we all should assume that we have tihetuka births and make effort. That effort will bear fruit either way.1. First I want to make a comment on the discussion between Lang and Tobias.
Here we need to make a distinction between “recalling past memory” and a “dhammā coming to the mind”.
– Recalling a past memory (namagotta with no kammic energy) REQUIRES us making an effort to recall that memory.
– On the other hand, a dhammā can come to the mind as a kamma vipaka. A dhammā has kammic energy.
– That is important to understand.Therefore, a memory of a friend cannot just come to the mind by itself (via namagotta).
– It was probably initiated by a dhammā coming to the mind as a kamma vipaka. In response, one may recall other related memories.2. My second comment is on the original issue: How does a kamma vipaka come DIRECTLY to the mind-door (as a dhammā)? That is not listed in Table 1.3 on p. 43 of Bhikkhu Bodhi’s book (or my posts).
– This may be what Bhikkhu Bodhi is trying to explain on p. 164 at the bottom of the page:
“(2) An independent mind-door process occurs when any of the six sense objects enters the range of cognition entirely on its own, not as a consequence of an immediately preceding sense-door process..”
– The end of the above statement refers to the fact that each five-door sense detection (with a citta vithi of 17 citta) is ALWAYS followed by 3 manodvara citta vithi. I have not discussed this in my posts, I believe.
– So, by “An independent mind-door process” he probably means a sense detection initiated without coming through the five sense-doors, i.e., a mind-door process initiated by a dhammā coming directly to the mind-door. But his explanation is not clear. He is quoting Ledi Sayadaw’s speculation, I believe. No reference to the Tipitaka is given.
– So, the original question remains unanswered so far (unless I missed something in Bhikkhu Bodhi’s explanation).Yes. The “mind-door adverting” citta (M) corresponds to the “five-door adverting” citta (F) in Bhikkhu Bodhi’s book.
Those two cittas correspond to PD and MV citta in my post on citta vithi:
“Citta Vīthi – Processing of Sense Inputs”But that does not resolve the issue. Does it?
This is a good question. I need to think about this further.
In the book, “Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma” Bhikkhu Bodhi has listed these cittas on p. 43. That is the same as what I have in the post.
– But I see the point that Tobias is making. Unwholesome/wholesome vipaka can come through the mana indriya (as dhammā).If anyone has any ideas, please post.
I think it is best not to mix Buddha Dhamma with concepts in Yoga or other Vedic teachings. As I have mentioned before, such teachings are distorted versions of the Buddha Dhamma.
– Even during Buddha Gotama’s time, such teachings were there coming from the Buddha Kassapa (the Buddha preceding Buddha Gotama). – A brief description of that at: “Arōgyā Paramā Lābhā..”
– As a reminder, there had been three Buddhas before Buddha Gotama on this Earth (i.e., during this Maha Kappa).Question 1: Mano sankhara arise automatically based on our gati and the particular sense-object (without conscious thinking.)
– Then if we start consciously thinking or speaking about the subject matter, those involve vaci sankhara.
– If we go further and take bodily actions, those involve kaya sankhara.
– It is important to understand the types of sankhara; “Saṅkhāra – What It Really Means”Question 2: What you are doing is exactly right. When negative/immoral thoughts come to the mind you need to shift the mind to the opposite of those (or at least to something different). That is the correct Anapanasati meditation.
“It seems like nirodha samapatti bliss of Nibbana is a higher grade / a step above Arahant-phala samapatti?”
-Yes.
Thanks, Lang, for posting the relevant links!
The short answer to the question, ” is there a limit like nirodha samapatti on how long an Arahant can stay in Arahant-Phala samapatti?”:
– No. There is no limit to how long one can stay in Arahant-Phala samapatti.
– That also holds for jhana samapatti. In a regular jhana, one goes in and out of jhana (and could be aware of the surroundings.) But in a jhana samapatti one is totally absorbed in the jhana, and only jhana citta flow uninterrupted.To add to Seng Kiat’s comment:
Citta vithi completely cease in Nirodha Samapatti.
– That is different from Arahant-phala Samapatti.Hello Raj:
The 16-step Anapanasati meditation is really for those who have attained the Sotapanna stage. I have not done a post on that yet. (See the P.S. below).
First, one needs to understand that Anapanasati is NOT breath meditation.
I have referred you to several posts on that earlier. Apparently, you don’t read what I suggest OR just read but don’t grasp the material. In any case, it is a good idea to read the posts in the Meditation section:
“Bhāvanā (Meditation)”
– The difference between Anapanasati and breath meditation is discussed in several posts there.It is a good idea to read that section from the beginning. Most people are looking for “fancy meditation techniques.” But we need to understand that Nibbana is “ragakkhaya, dosakkhaya, mohakkhaya” or getting rid of “greed, hate/anger/ignorance (of the Noble Truths).
– So, one needs to start at a basic level and build upon that basic foundation.By the time you have read the posts in that section, hopefully, you will understand how Ariya Metta Bhavana works.
Don’t worry. I understand that there is so much stuff out there and it is hard to figure out who is right.
– I cannot say I am right. But I do point out the inconsistencies in some stuff out there.
– It is up to each person to decide.My advice is to stop trying to read/listen to all that is out there. Just focus on one path for some time. If that doesn’t seem to be right then try another.
As far as English discourses by others, I think those by “Dharmayai Obayi” seem to be good. I have listened to a couple, and some people on this forum have commented that they are good.
P.S. Anapanasati is the SAME as Satipatthana. To put it another way, when one cultivates Anapanasati, one would automatically cultivate Satipatthana. That is stated in the Anapanasati Sutta (MN 118).
– It is just that cultivation of Anapanasati/Satipatthana would have optimum results AFTER the Sotapanna stage.
– You can read the posts on Satipatthana here: “Mahā Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta”
– But I would recommend going through the Meditation section BEFORE reading these posts.
