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Thank you for the document, LDF. I will look at it later.
To continue with my thoughts in my earlier comment:
4. As I mentioned above, we should not try to understand concepts associated with viññāṇa dhātu (nāma loka) with those we are familiar with the rupa loka.
- In the rupa loka, “things/rupa above the suddhatthaka level” have spatial locations. But “nāmagotta and dhammā” in the nāma loka do not have spatial locations. We can recall memories from anywhere (astronauts were able to do that on the Moon). In the same way, dhammā can bring kamma vipaka whether we are on the Moon or anywhere else.
- That is just a feature of viññāṇa dhātu (nāma loka).
5. The same with the “recording of nāmagotta and dhammā.” No devices are doing the recording! That is how nāmagotta and dhammā operate.
- That is how nature operates. The Buddha did not make up those rules. He only discovered them. He was subjected to the same rules. He got to old age and passed away just like any sankhata.
If TGS or anyone else has questions, please feel free to ask. It could be helpful if a question is asked without too much (background) description. Sometimes I am not sure whether it is a comment or a question. Also, if possible, refer to a bullet number in a post if the issue is with the post.
- Please make sure to read the posts recommended in my previous comment.
Dosakkhayo wrote: “But that does not answer that “cakkayatana is cakkhu pasada rupa made of apo, tejo, vayo, pathavi“.”
You also quoted:
Tattha katamaṁ rūpāyatanaṁ? Yaṁ rūpaṁ catunnaṁ mahābhūtānaṁ upādāya vaṇṇanibhā sanidassanaṁ sappaṭighaṁ nīlaṁ pītakaṁ lohitakaṁ odātaṁ kāḷakaṁ mañjiṭṭhakaṁ hari harivaṇṇaṁ ambaṅkuravaṇṇaṁ dīghaṁ rassaṁ aṇuṁ thūlaṁ vaṭṭaṁ parimaṇḍalaṁ caturassaṁ chaḷaṁsaṁ aṭṭhaṁsaṁ soḷasaṁsaṁ ninnaṁ thalaṁ chāyā ātapo āloko andhakāro abbhā mahikā dhūmo rajo candamaṇḍalassa vaṇṇanibhā sūriyamaṇḍalassa vaṇṇanibhā tārakarūpānaṁ vaṇṇanibhā ādāsamaṇḍalassa vaṇṇanibhā maṇisaṅkhamuttaveḷuriyassa vaṇṇanibhā jātarūparajatassa vaṇṇanibhā, yaṁ vā panaññampi atthi rūpaṁ catunnaṁ mahābhūtānaṁ upādāya vaṇṇanibhā sanidassanaṁ sappaṭighaṁ, yaṁ rūpaṁ sanidassanaṁ sappaṭighaṁ cakkhunā anidassanena sappaṭighena passi vā passati vā passissati vā passe vā, rūpampetaṁ rūpāyatanampetaṁ rūpadhātupesā.
Just like I pointed out earlier regarding ayatana, “..rupa ever experienced, to be experienced, or now being experienced” is included in rūpāyatana.
Please read the new post “Salāyatana Are Not Sense Faculties ” carefully.
- There are over 250 suttas in the “Saḷāyatana Vagga” in Saṁyutta Nikāya (starting with SN 35.1.)
- I have selected a few suttas to point out the main points.
- As pointed out in #5, the Sabba sutta (SN 35. 23) clearly states that the 12 āyatana encompasses the “all in this world.”
- Yes. Rupā are made of the four great elements. But as soon as we see, hear, etc., they become “atita rupa” and are included in the rupakkhandha (as nāmagotta.)
LDM wrote: “Perhaps Internal āyatana in RūpakKhanda refers to mental impression of those āyatana, Rather than physical āyatana themselves.”
- Not perhaps. They are.
LDM asked: “I am not sure if there is difference between āyatana and Saḷāyatana, Is there?”
- No difference.
Jorg wrote:
A) #3 “Defilements at an intense level are lobha, dosa, and moha. Those reduce to rāga, paṭigha, and avijjā with the dispelling of the ten types of micchā diṭṭhi.”
Shouldn’t it be that the reduction to raga, patigha, and avijja occurs when one starts comprehending tilakkhana, i.e., enter the lokotarra noble eighfold path/become sotapanna (anugami)? So only after removing the deeper miccha ditthi which can happen only after one first removes the ten types of miccha ditthi
- Yes. That is correct. What I meant to say was one cannot become a Sotapanna Anugami until the removes the ten types of miccha ditthi.
“B) At the bottom of the page I noticed this (see bolded parts): “Those two realizations involve two types of atta. Sakkāya diṭṭhi involves “attā” (with a long “a”), and anatta in Tilakkhana involves atta (with a long “a.”)”
- Yes. One must understand that to see that anatta is not about a “self” or “me.” Anatta is a characteristic of everything in this world. The Buddha described “everything in this world (sabba)” in different ways: five aggregates, 12 āyatana, six dhātus. They all have the “anatta nature.”
- It is sakkāya diṭṭhi that involves a “self” or “me.”
- That is what I tried to point out in #13, and #14 in the new post.
Again, there is a lot of information packed in that new post. Take the time to read the links too. These concepts have been hidden since the rise of the Mahayana, which led to the contamination of Theravada too. Philosophers like Nagarjuna and Buddhaghosa played critical roles in that. Many Theravadins still use Buddhaghosa’s Visuddhimagga instead of the Tipitaka! Furthermore, they are now translating the Tipitaka according to the Visuddhimagga and other Mahayana concepts.
1. Most of the difficulties associated with memory, namagotta, kamma bija, dhammā, kamma vipaka, hadaya vatthu, etc., could be due to the following reason.
- We have a “mental world (nāma loka)” as well as a “material world (rupa loka).”
- The Buddha categorized everything in the world into six types of dhātu: pathavi, āpo, tejo, vāyo, ākāsa, and viññāṇa.
- The rupa loka encompasses the first FIVE dhātu. Most of us are only familiar with the rupa loka. Scientists are focused on the rupa loka too.
- Memory, namagotta, kamma bija, dhammā, kamma vipaka, hadaya vatthu, etc., are all related to the sixth dhātu: viññāṇa dhātu.
2. We tend to try to visualize the entities in the nāma loka or viññāṇa dhātu using the terminology/concepts we are familiar with in the rupa loka. That is an obstacle.
- Viññāṇa dhātu (nāma loka) INCLUDES all mental entities: vedana, saññā, saṅkhāra, and viññāṇa.
- In contrast, the rupa loka only deals with five types of rupa: rupa rupa, sadda rupa, gandha rupa, rasa rupa, and phottabba rupa.
- The sixth type of rupa, dhammā or dhamma rupa, is associated with the nāma loka.
3. Thus, we can see that we must make an extra effort to understand the viññāṇa dhātu (nāma loka).
- Also, the Buddha taught that the mind comes first, not matter: “Manōpubbangamā Dhammā..“
- The following sections/posts could be helpful: “Where Are Memories Stored? – Viññāṇa Dhātu,” “Our Two Worlds – Rupa Loka and Nāma Loka,” “Where Are Memories “Stored”? – Connection to Pañcakkhandha.”
It is getting late here. So, I will stop here for now. But this is an important topic, so please comment or post questions.
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“I think that the extension of pancakkhandha is different from the extension of salayatana.”
No contradiction. I just revised #12 of the post, “Buddhist Worldview – Introduction” as follows to make it clear.
12. The “Āyatanavibhaṅga” provides details on the twelve āyatana. For example: “Tattha katamaṃ cakkhāyatanaṃ? Yaṃ cakkhu catunnaṃ mahābhūtānaṃ upādāya pasādo attabhāvapariyāpanno anidassano sappaṭigho, yena cakkhunā anidassanena sappaṭighena rūpaṃ sanidassanaṃ sappaṭighaṃ passi vā passati vā passissati vā passe vā, cakkhumpetaṃ cakkhāyatanampetaṃ cakkhudhātupesā cakkhundriyampetaṃ lokopeso dvārāpesā samuddopeso paṇḍarampetaṃ khettampetaṃ vatthumpetaṃ nettampetaṃ nayaṃampetaṃ orimaṃ tīrampetaṃ suñño gāmopeso. Idaṃ vuccati “cakkhāyatanaṃ.”
Translated: “What is cakkhāyatana? It is that cakkhu pasāda derived from the four great elements. It is invisible (anidassano), makes contact (sappaṭighena) with visible (object).” (Only partially correct translation at Sutta Central: “Analysis Of The Sense-bases.”) But all such cakkhu pasāda ever experienced, to be experienced, or now being experienced is included.
There are several essential things to remember.
1. Sobhana and asobhana cetasika (i.e., punnabhisankhara and apunnabhisankhara) cannot arise in the same citta that arises in a billionth of a second.
2. However, during some kamma, billions of citta vithi with different cetasika can arise. For example, someone may donate money to a homeless person with a pleasant mind. But just after that, he may regret making that donation, thinking, “Would he use that money to buy drugs?”
- In another example, one may chase a cat and save a mouse’s life. But then he may wonder, “Did I do a bad kamma by depriving the cat of a meal?” Indeed he did both within that time span of several minutes.
3. Furthermore, kaṇha (bad) vipaka and sukka (good) vipaka do not need to be due to a previous single kamma. When conditions are right, the vipaka of many bad kamma may come to fruition. It works the other way, too, for good vipaka.
- In general, Devas and Brahmas in realms mostly experience good vipaka. Those in the lowest realm (niraya) experience mostly bad vipaka.
- They all may have about the same numbers of good and bad kamma vipaka waiting to bring fruit. But Deva and Brahma kaya are unable to experience strong bad vipaka. In the same way, some in a niraya may have strong “good vipaka” waiting to materialize, but such vipaka cannot materialize as long as they are in a niraya.
- The human realm is in the middle. Our bodies are unable to bear harsh vipaka (as in the apayas) or good strong vipaka (as in Deva/Brahma realms).
- See “Anantara and Samanantara Paccayā.”
4. Only a Buddha can sort complex situations involving kamma vipaka. But the above can be a guide.
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Yes. That is correct, Tobi.
- Hadaya vatthu is the “seat of the mind.” Thoughts cannot arise without a hadaya vatthu.
- It is so tiny that no scientific instrument will ever be able to detect it. It can be estimated to be a billion times smaller than an atom in modern science.
Don’t get stressed out. Take the time, read carefully, and ask questions if needed. You have made a lot of progress.
- May the Blessings of the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha be with you in your efforts!
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1. Tobi’s question: “Città cannot be created without Rupa.”
- I gave the references: “Upaya Sutta (SN 22.53)” and the subsequent few suttas n that series.
- As for “An Arupi Brahma has the smallest rupa, hadaya vatthu,” citta cannot arise without a hadaya vatthu! No reference is needed. Furthermore, as explained in the “Upaya Sutta (SN 22.53),” citta cannot arise without a rupa.
2. Tobi’s question: “Uppapatibhavana is a Pali term that means “rebirth” or “reappearance.”
- There is no term “Uppapatibhavana.”
- There are “kamma bhava” and “uppatti bhava” which are related. All kammic energies are in the”kamma bhava,” and some of them become “uppatti bhava” when rebirths (uppatti) occur.
- See “Bhava and Jāti – States of Existence and Births Therein.”
3. Tobi’s question/comment:
“It is the before … the kamma that occurs in the patisandhi moment and is connected with bhavatanha, leads to the citta resting in the asannasatta. Vinnana is present. But it does not need rupa to be localized because there is not even a space element there. The localization of vinnana/citta in the kamaloka is done by kama-generated rupa. It is placed in the gandhabba by the arrangement of the rupas.
For example, cakkhu-viññana has Pasada Rupa as its basis and can therefore be localized in the region of our eye.
Lal said: That quoted verse can be improved as “Without accompanied by rupa, vedana, saññā, and saṅkhārāra, the establishment, growth, or the movement of viññāṇa is not possible.
Who says that rupa is needed in the arupa loka, where there is no rupa, one does not need sanna, vedana and sankahra. Sankahra one does to counteract abhisankahra and to reach the arupa realms or at least not to form new kamma for it. It does not go higher, these are already the highest realms. This is the absolute bliss, these are the highest jhanic states. There vinnana/citta is not locally bound. There nama is so strong that it can generate rupa in large quantities. It is more like a bhavanga state.”
My response: I don’t know what to say about the above. You need to read more posts and understand the basics. Note that the term ” arupa loka” was there before Buddha Gotama. It DOES NOT mean there are no rupa there. There were ancient yogis who were able to see many of the realms in rupa loka. Births in the rupa loka are attained by cultivating the four jhanas. When one cultivates higher samapatti (which are called fifth through eighth jhanas these days), one gets rebirths in arupa loka. Even though those yogis could “see” beings in the rupa loka, they could not see the beings with just the hadaya vatthu in arupa realms. Only a Buddha can see a hadaya vatthu (a single suddhatthaka.)
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Thanks again, Saket. I revised the post.”Namagotta, Bhava, Kamma Bīja, and Mano Loka (Mind Plane)” to include the following (under #4):
- The weaker “kamma bījas” (that brings vipāka during a lifetime) can last up to 91 mahā kappās (a mahā kappa is the lifetime of a universe, roughly 30 billion years). For example, offering food to bhikkhus falls into that category. This reference to 91 mahā kappās is in the following: “Part 3 – The Buddha’s Delivery of The Tirokuṭṭa Sutta.” That was the background for the Buddha to deliver the “Tirokuṭṭa Sutta (kp 7).” Thanks to C. Saket for sharing the link to that background account!
- However, strong ones will be there until it comes to fruition, especially for rebirth; of course, that holds only for average humans (non-Ariyas.)
Thank you for bringing this issue for discussion, Saket. Thank you for the comment, Tobi.
1. Waharaka Thero has discussed this issue of “kamma vipaka can materialize up to 91 maha kappas.” However, as I recall, that does not apply to janaka kamma, i.e., those that can lead to rebirth.
- There is a sutta that discusses the issue of “kamma vipaka can materialize up to 91 maha kappas.” As I recall, it involves King Bimbisara. He saw a dream where a group of petas came to him and asked for his help to be released from the peta realm. The Buddha explained to the King that he can indeed help them because they had helped him within the past 91 maha kappas.
- The point is that this 91 maha kappa limit does not apply to janaka kamma (those leading to rebirth.) The reference in that sutta is to kamma vipaka appearing during a lifetime.
2. In general, an aparāpariyāyavedanīya kamma (that can bring rebirth) may be indefinitely effective, as Tobi pointed out. Of course, it may wear out after millions of maha kappas, but no such limit is specifically stated.
3. Tobi wrote: “So no Hadaya Vatthu in Arupa Loka.”
- That is not correct. Citta cannot arise without a rupa. An arupi Brahma has the smallest rupa, hadaya vatthu.
- Viññāṇa (i.e., citta) cannot arise without being accompanied by rupa, vedana, saññā, and saṅkhārāra: “Upaya Sutta (SN 22.53)” and subsequent few suttas.
- That quoted verse can be improved as “Without accompanied by rupa, vedana, saññā, and saṅkhārāra, the establishment, growth, or the movement of viññāṇa is not possible.”
4. I have revised the two posts Saket quoted. Thanks again to Saket for pointing that out.
That is a good question. However, we need to look at the Tipitaka reference to verify, “Any kamma bija loses its potency (energy) after 91 maha kappa.”
Please provide the reference.
I am not sure what you mean by “citta level.”
But the situation DanielSt described is a bit different from what I described.
1. In his case, the person is looking for metal that can make him money and be used for things that would give him sensual pleasures. So, he is suffering physically (looking for metal) and mentally (how come I have not found much of it yet?)
- But that suffering is masked by his “expected pleasures” or “assāda” that is only mind-made.
- He describes it a bit differently. That is another “cooling down” aspect once he found some metal. Nothing wrong with it, either. There are multiple ways to look at the same situation from different angles.
2. In the examples I pointed out, the person is already stressed due to the “physical and mental imbalance.” Physical imbalance because the body does not have enough water; mental imbalance because he is stressed about whether he can find water before he dies.
- Both imbalances go away when he drinks water.
- These “imbalances” are the situations away from “balance.” The Pali words are “sama” for balance and “visama” for imbalance.
- The relief comes when one moves away from “visama” and gets to “sama.” There, the “assāda” is due to that relief.
3. This can be used to understand the meaning of “samādhi.“
- “Samādhi” comes from “sama” + “adhi” where “adhi” means “dominance.”
- When one is in “samādhi” one is away from extremes and is “in equilibrium.” One does not need to do anything to seek comfort or to move away from suffering.
- A Brahma does not need water to quench thirst because he does not have a physical body that REQUIRES food and water. Thus, Brahma is “in equilibrium” regarding food and water (at least until the end of that Brahma existence.)
- Another example: When the ambient temperature is close to the body temperature, there is no need to heat or air-condition a room. The body is in equilibrium!
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Yes. That is correct.
- There are no “olarika rupa” (dense rupa, i.e., rupa, sadda, gandha, rasa, phottabba) in arupa realms.
- Only a suddhāttaka (hadaya vatthu) is associated with each sentient being there. It can experience dhammā (anidassana, appatigha rupa, i.e., which cannot be “seen or made contact with other than with a hadaya vatthu.”)
- Most gati stay hidden as anusaya since there are no sensory attractions.
- Time spent in arupa realms (for anariyas) can be considered “vacation time” with peace of mind. It was earned by cultivating anariya arupa samapatti. At the end of that time, they are reborn as humans and start over. Old gati/anusaya can be triggered, leading to rebirths in the apayas.
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Even though ChatGPT can be pretty helpful (as I pointed out in the above comment), it makes silly mistakes. In particular, it does not have common sense (as expected from a non-sentient robot.) The following chats I had with it yesterday illustrate that point.
Me: It takes 5 hours for me to dry 5 shirts out in the Sun. How long would it take to dry 15 shirts?
ChatGPT4:
Assuming that the drying time is directly proportional to the number of shirts, we can use a proportion to solve for the time it would take to dry 15 shirts.
If 5 shirts take 5 hours to dry, then 1 shirt takes 1 hour to dry.
Therefore, if 1 shirt takes 1 hour to dry, 15 shirts would take 15 times as long:
15 shirts x 1 hour/shirt = 15 hours
So, it would take 15 hours to dry 15 shirts out in the Sun, assuming similar drying conditions for all shirts.
***********
Me: There are four jugs with capacities of 1 3/4, 1, 1/2, and 1/4 cups. What is the minimum number of fills to fill the jug of 1 3/4 cup-capacity?
ChatGPT4:
We can fill the jugs with smaller capacities and use them to fill the larger jugs until the 1 3/4 cup-capacity jug is full.
First, we can use the 1/4 cup jug to fill the 1 3/4 cup-capacity jug. It would take 7 fills of the 1/4 cup jug to fill the 1 3/4 cup-capacity jug.
Next, we can use the 1/2 cup jug to fill the 1 cup jug. It would take 2 fills of the 1/2 cup jug to fill the 1 cup jug.
Then, we can use the 1 cup jug to fill the remaining 3/4 cup space in the 1 3/4 cup-capacity jug. It would take 3 fills of the 1 cup jug to fill the remaining space.
Therefore, the minimum number of fills to fill the jug of 1 3/4 cup-capacity is:
7 fills of the 1/4 cup jug + 2 fills of the 1/2 cup jug + 3 fills of the 1 cup jug = 12 fills
So, we need to fill and pour the jugs 12 times in total to fill the 1 3/4 cup-capacity jug.
*******
Even a child can see that any number of shirts can be dried in one hour.
- The second answer is even worse. The jug of 1 3/4 cup capacity can be filled in one shot. But it is possible that one may think that other jugs must be used to fill it. Even in that case, just three fills (one with each smaller jug) can fill up the large jug.
ChatGPT must be used with caution. Even though it can be a good tool for researching literature, even there, sometimes it provides incorrect answers.
- Furthermore, pertaining to political issues, it just conveys the bias of the people who have trained it.
- The point is that ChatGPT, or any other AI application, will be as good/bad as it has been programmed/trained.
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Yes. “Pīḷana” (pronounced as “peelana”) is the Pāli word for distress or hardship.
- Pīḷana is connected to assāda or “pleasure.” We can see that also with the following simple example.
Water tastes best when we are thirsty. If one cannot find water and thirst becomes unbearable, that is when water tastes best. Then it is “pleasurable” to drink water.
- For that person, water tastes best with the first few sips. Once they drink a glass of water, their thirst is quenched, and water does not taste great anymore. After the second glass, it could be hard to drink anymore.
- The same is true in many other situations. Air conditioning feels good only if one’s body gets hot. If the air-conditioner is turned on in a cold room, that becomes uncomfortable, etc.
- Our “pleasures” (assāda) arise because of the pīḷana characteristic, which is another facet of the “anicca nature.” The above examples show the “anicca nature” associated with the physical body.
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