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That is correct. Upadana leads to accumulating new kammic energy.
P.S. Taṇhā happens automatically due to “bad gati.” We have control over “upādāna” because that is when we become aware of the “attachment.” Thus, if we are mindful, we can realize we have started cultivating abhisankhara and stop it. That is the basis of Ananapasati/Satipatthana!
See “Difference Between Tanhā and Upādāna.”
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That is an interesting observation.
- However, I don’t think they are the same.
- We may have kamma bija from far back, many eons back waiting to bring their kamma vipaka.
- However, we have “upadana” for sensory inputs that come to us in this life, some as strong vipaka but others just because we have this physical body that is open to a multitude of sensory inputs.
- Of course, there can be some correlation between the two.
P.S. They are definitely not the same.
For example, kammic energy associated with a past kamma is going to be there in vinnana dhatu until one of the following two happens: (i) it brings vipaka and exhausts all that energy, or (ii) it does not get to deliver vipaka and the energy fades away on its own, with time.
When someone attains Arahathood, all upadana go away, but the energies of many kamma done in the past are still there. Some kamma bija can bring their vipaka until the Arahant’s physical body dies, i.e., until attaining Parinibbana.
- For example, when Ven. Angulimala attained Arahanthood his upadanakkhandha completely vanished. But he was subjected to some abuse (there are accounts in Tipitaka saying when kids throw stones, some of them would automatically come and hit Ven. Angulimala; kids were not trying to hit him. So, many days, he would return from alms round bleeding.)
It is good to think about these issues. That is when we can put our knowledge to work. This is real vipassana!
Thank you, Jorg. That is a good idea.
I have revised (some parts rewritten) the post, “Indriya and Āyatana – Big Difference.” I hope it is better.
- I will rewrite the other post you mentioned or may write a new one to provide more information on how “energy-less” namagotta (memories) come to the mind as dhammā when willfully recalled, i.e., even though nāmagotta are not dhammā, they come to mind as dhammā when we try to recall them.
- I have explained that in the forum: See comment #40356 (on September 14, 2022, at 2:42 pm) in the thread “Post on ‘Nāmagotta, Bhava, Kamma Bīja, and Mano Loka (Mind Plane)’” But I will put it into an existing post or a new post.
- Please feel free to comment on any of the above. I can address any such questions/comments. These are subtle and important issues.
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I am glad to hear that Jorg’s and Dosakkhayo’s concerns/questions have been resolved.
Jorg wrote: “The mana indriya is located in the brain. The hadaya vatthu is located in the heart region. In one part, Lal mentioned that the mana indriya becomes manaytana and in another part that the hadaya vatthu becomes manayata.”
The Tipitaka is not very clear about what is defiled by cakkhu, sota, ghana, jivha, kaya, and mana indriya.
That is why I wrote in my previous comment explaining the cakkhu indriya as follows: “Cakkhu indriya can be thought of as the whole system comprising the physical eyes, nerves connecting to the visual cortex in the brain, the visual cortex, and the cakkhu pasada rupa. If any of those do not function, no signal will reach the hadaya vatthu, i.e., there will be no vision. An Arahant or an average human can see unless blind.”
- That could be a better way to explain the cakkhu indriya (and the others similarly.)
Therefore, mana indriya could be considered to incorporate any brain functions as well as the hadaya vatthu.
- Of course, hadaya vatthu is where the cittas arise. That would not change.
- But just as an average human uses the cakkhu indriya as cakkhayatana, the mana indriya (the system comprising the hadaya vatthu and brain functions) is used as manayatana.
Therefore, I think the above description could be better. (The Pali word for the physical eye is “nayana,” but I have not seen it used to defile the cakkhu indriya. The reason could be that the role of the brain was completely unknown to humans at the time of the Buddha. He could not have explained it to people at that time.)
Of course, the following is what matters:
- Cakkhu indriya enables us to see. Sota indriya enables us to hear….Mana indriya enables us to think.
- Each indriya is used as the respective āyatana by an average human.
- An Arahant does not have āyatana but has the respective indriya.
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An excellent review of the history and possibilities of AI (pdf):
“Large Language models and the reverse Turing test” by Terrence J. Sejnowski, a pioneer in the field.
He also has a recent book on the subject, “Deep Learning Revolution” (2018.)
- I am not encouraging anyone to get started on the subject. It could be a distraction from cultivating the Noble Path.
- However, I believe I may be able to use it to teach Dhamma. Thus my interest in it.
It is fine.
“Abyākatā dhammā,” translated as “Indeterminate states,” are those that don’t belong to kusala/akusala, i.e., vipaka.
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The 10,000 cakkavāla (“dasasahassilokadhātu“) is mentioned in the “Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta (56.11).” That is what I had in mind.
- Dasasahassilokadhātu (dasa sahassi lokadhātu) means 10, 000 cakkavāla. But it does not say a Buddha appears per 10,000 cakkavāla.
- So, my first recollection may be wrong (“…As I remember, our solar system (cakkavāla) is one of a 10,000 cakkavāla in a cūḷanikā lokadhātu. …”)
I have heard (and am confident) that only one Buddha can appear in a cluster of cakkavāla.
- But how many cakkavāla are in such a cluster? I am not sure.
- If it is a cūḷanikā lokadhātu,” it will be a cluster of 1000 cakkavāla.
- If it is a mahāsahassī lokadhātu,” it will be a cluster of a billion cakkavāla.
- In AN 3.8, the Buddha only says his voice can be heard across a mahāsahassī lokadhātu. It does not say there can be only a single Buddha per mahāsahassī lokadhātu.
If someone has a Tipitaka reference, please post it.
P.S. Scientists estimate our Milky Way galaxy to contain 100–400 billion stars (i.e., cakkavāla): “Milky Way.”
OK. Let us see whether we can push Jorg a little bit more.
“B.) Regarding manāyatana, in #44725 it’s stated:
- P.S. In the same way as the cakkhu indriya automatically becomes cakkhāyatana, mana indriya automatically becomes manāyatana.
In one statement it’s referring to the mind and in one it’s referring to the mana indriya?”
Cakkhu indriya can be thought of as the whole system comprising the physical eyes, nerves connecting to the visual cortex in the brain, the visual cortex, and the cakkhu pasada rupa. If any of those do not function, no signal will reach the hadaya vatthu, i.e., there will be no vision. An Arahant or an average human can see unless blind.
- But an average human uses that system to “acquire san” by using it for “pleasure-seeking activities” (watching X-rated movies in an extreme example.) That is when cakkhu indriya becomes cakkhayatana.
- An Arahant would not do that. His cakkhu indriya never becomes cakkhayatana.
- Just like in rupa/rupakkhandha, cakkhayatana is not the system comprising the physical eyes, nerves connecting to the visual cortex in the brain, the visual cortex, and the cakkhu pasada rupa.
- But cakkhayatana would not exist (i.e., an average human would not have the capability to watch porn) without the system comprising the physical eyes, nerves connecting to the visual cortex in the brain, the visual cortex, and the cakkhu pasada rupa (cakkhu indriya.)
Manāyatana or any other āyatana works the same way. Sensory faculties BECOME āyatana for average humans, but not for Arahants.
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OK. Let us take Jorg’s A) part:
You quoted: “That makes sense since the six internal and five external āyatana takes into account the rupakkhandha.“
I did not say, “That makes sense since the six internal and five external āyatana ARE the rupakkhandha.“
- “Ayatanas” are not the same as “six sensory faculties” in the sense that Arahants have sense faculties but not “āyatanas.” In the same way, five external āyatana are not the same as rupa, sadda, gandha, rasa, and photthabba. Arahants can experience rupa, sadda, gandha, rasa, and photthabba too, but they are not external āyatana for them.
Let me see whether I can explain the difference between rupa and rupakkhandha first.
- Suppose there was a huge Oak tree in front of your house that you have seen all your life. Last week you got a contractor to come in and remove it. He cut it down and hauled it away. No trace of that tree is there today. But you can recall that tree today because it is in the rupakkhandha. However, a record of that tree would not be in the rupakkhandha unless that tree was physically there before last week.
- Therefore, rupakkhandha is not the same as a physical rupa. But that part of the rupakkhandha would not exist without that physical rupa being in existence at some time. The existence of a CONNECTION does not mean they are the same. That is why there is nothing wrong with my statement, “That makes sense since the six internal and five external āyatana takes into account the rupakkhandha.“ I could state the same with the following sentence: “That makes sense since the six internal and five external āyatana are based on physical rupa.“
The situation is similar in the case of internal āyatana: An internal āyatana is not the same as a “sense faculty.” An Arahant has sense faculties, but they are not āyatana for the Arahant.
- That is why your statement, “I’m not sure how to tally these two statements since “six internal” includes manāyatana, doesn’t it?” does not make sense either.
- An Arahant does not have manāyatana but has a mind. That mind is BASED ON a physical rupa, the hadaya vatthu. An average human also has a hadaya vatthu, but they use it as manāyatana.
- I think the same issue arises in the B) part of your comment.
These are somewhat complicated issues that require contemplation. I cannot write everything in a post. So, I give links, and not many people read them. Some people just read a post in 10 minutes and are done with it (I am not referring to anyone in particular.)
- In most cases, when someone posts a comment, I can see that I can make some changes to my writing to make it clear.
- But in a few cases, I can see that it is unfruitful to engage any further. I may be able to explain it better if I have the time to write another post, but I don’t have all the time in the world.
- I appreciate your comments and questions. They help make the website better and are beneficial to all. But in a few cases, I will say: this is all I can do for now.
- If an issue is critically important and I have not responded satisfactorily, please email me.
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Your observations are good, Lang.
Regarding: “We know that cakkhuviññāṇaṁ for an arahant is pure and vastly different from that of ours; it’s just not fathomable to us. If someone can make up a special term to describe that to help him understand better then it’s all good (perhaps something like “cakkhuñāṇaṁ” (without the “vi“)).”
- The same word cakkhuviññāṇa (or any other type of viññāṇa) is used for an Arahant as well. However, it is understood that it is NOT defiled in any way (all associated mental qualities, i.e., vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana) have no trace of defilements.
- I think the main reason to use the term is that even for an Arahant, a citta goes through some stages of evolvement, ending up with incorporating all past experiences (i.e., becoming viññāṇakkhandha or the ‘aggregate of viññāṇa.)
- P.S. See “Citta, Manō, Viññāna – Nine Stages of a Thought.”
Regarding: “Anyhow, it is much easier to draw the distinction between an arahant and us in the subsequent verse: there is NO “tiṇṇaṁ saṅgati phasso” for arahants, but there is for us. And this point can serve us better in terms of practice — to work to reduce “san“.”
- Exactly!
I have no more comments on this subject. Each person is entitled to their opinions. If you are happy with your understanding, that is fine with me.
I think the main problem could be not realizing the following.
Let us take one sensory faculty: cakkhu.
In “Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhuviññāṇaṁ,” cakkhu does not mean “physical eyes,” “rupa” does not mean “physical rupa (say a tree),” and “cakkhu viññāṇa” is not a “pure seeing event (seeing the tree).”
- That contact occurs in the manomaya kaya, with the cakkhu pasada rupa (carrying an IMPRINT of the tree) hitting the hadaya vatthu. Thus, “rupa” here is not the tree! Cakkhu is not physical eyes, even though they play a role.
- That gives rise to a citta, which CONTAMINATES within the lifetime of that citta to viññāṇa. That is the first stage of contamination. The second stage of contamination takes place in the next step, “Tiṇṇaṁ saṅgati phasso.” See “Loka Sutta (SN 12.44).”
- That holds for all six sensory contacts.
- So, cakkhu already became an āyatana at the very beginning. Even if the mind may not attach to that particular ārammana, the mind goes through the “nine stages of contamination.” See “Citta, Manō, Viññāna – Nine Stages of a Thought.”
- P.S. In the same way as the cakkhu indriya automatically becomes cakkhāyatana, mana indriya automatically becomes manāyatana.
- Thus, all six sensory faculties are generally āyatana unless one is an Arahant.
Details at “The Five Aggregates (Pañcakkhandha)“
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1. Regarding #6 of “Saḷāyatana Are Not Sense Faculties“:
I have revised it as follows:
“6. As in the case of the five aggregates, the twelve āyatana are categorized as past, present, and paccuppanna (“present”), as pointed out above.
- That makes sense since the six internal and five external āyatana takes into account the rupakkhandha.
- The sixth external āyatana (dhammā) incorporates the kamma viññāṇa; thus, it can be represented by the viññāṇa aggregate.) Nāmagotta contains all records of the vipāka viññāṇa, and thus, can be represented by the first three mental aggregates.
- Even though nāmagotta are not dhammā, they come to mind as dhammā when we recall them. I have explained that in the forum (but I should write a post to explain it fully.) See comment #40356 (on September 14, 2022, at 2:42 pm) in the thread “Post on ‘Nāmagotta, Bhava, Kamma Bīja, and Mano Loka (Mind Plane)’”
So, now there should not be any discrepancies regarding that.
2. Dosakkhayo wrote next:
“Laydhammafollower said in #44645:
“RūpakKhanda is not stored, it is generated as needed from other four aggregates.
When memory is recalled, Rūpakkhanda is regenerated from four aggregates stored in kamma bhava.
And this process of recalling involves energy. So, that is why dhamma comes to mind as dhammā.”
But lal said in #44649:
“1. Rūpakkhanda is preserved in nāmalōka as namagotta. It is just a record without any energy.
2. So, there are two types of entities in the nāmalōka: (i) dhammā with kammic energy and (ii) namagotta without energy.
– dhammā can “come back” to our minds on their own. That is how kamma vipaka takes place. When the conditions are right, they bring vipaka.”- Hopefully, that is resolved with #1 above.
3. Dosakkhayo wrote next:
“And, Phassa (Contact) – Contact With Pasāda Rupa said:
“Cakkhāyatana Is Cakkhu Pasāda Rupa
3. Cakkhāyatana is not the eyes. The “seeing” takes place in the mind, and the “seat of the mind” is the hadaya vatthu. The image captured by the eyes gets transmitted to the cakkhu pasāda rupa, which transfers the image to the hadaya vatthu.”I think this post says clearly that kammaja kaya is ayatana.”
- No. It does not. Where does it say that?
4. Q1: Rupakkhandha contains paccuppana kammaja kaya? – I think it does not.
- Why not? Any rupa is just registered in the mind even at the moment of seeing, hearing, etc!
- External rupa are made of satara maha bhuta. Yes. You are completely wrong about paccuppana rupa. What is registered in mind is not satara maha bhuta.
5. Q2: Rupakkhandha contains manāyatana?
- No. Any ayatana is not maha bhuta. The hadaya vatthu is made of maha bhuta. But when it is used as manāyatana it is just a state of mind.
I think contemplating the above can provide answers to other questions.
- To emphasize: There are two types of vinnana: vipaka vinnana and kamma vinnana. Kamma vinnana have energy (dhammā.)
- vipaka part of the vinnana aggregate incorporates the first three mental aggregates and thus can be represented by the first three aggregates. That is namagotta.
I just looked at the translation closely. Yes. It can be confusing because he uses “galaxy” to denote a thousand-fold “world system.”
See the side-by-side translation: “Cūḷanikā Sutta (AN 3.80).”
- A “world system” is a single cakkavāla with one star and associated planets. Our Solar system is one.
- At marker 4.3: “cūḷanikā lokadhātu” is a SMALL cluster of a thousand such cakkavāla (incorrectly called a “galaxy.”)
- At marker 5.2: “majjhimikā lokadhātu” is a MEDUIM cluster of a thousand such “cūḷanikā lokadhātu“ (incorrectly called a ” ‘galactic cluster.’”)
- At marker 6.2: “mahāsahassī lokadhātu” is a LARGE cluster of a thousand such “majjhimikā lokadhātu“ (incorrectly called a ” ‘galactic supercluster.’”)
- It is not a good idea to try to match the Buddha’s world systems with the names used by current science. For example, a “galaxy” in current science may have billions of stars like our Sun (i.e., billions of cakkavāla, not just a thousand.) A “mahāsahassī lokadhātu” is within a galaxy. Thus, our “mahāsahassī lokadhātu” is within the Milky Way galaxy.
- The universe has billions of galaxies like our Milky Way galaxy. See “Milky Way“
- Each “mahāsahassī lokadhātu” can have only one Buddha at a time. But there can be Buddhas in other “mahāsahassī lokadhātu” even at this time. The universe is unimaginably vast!
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That is a bit complicated.
The standard PS cycle can be analyzed as the result of 16 sub-cycles! That is actually what happens WITHIN a javana citta. Only a Buddha can “see” that process; we can only see that it must be true. It is a complex analysis.
There was a discussion on it sometime back: “kusala mula PS leads not to rebirth.”
- In a comment on May 27, 2022, at 8:27 pm (#37674) I discussed that briefly.
- So, the verse you quoted above describes one of the earlier steps in the 16-cycle process. I quoted it above without realizing it.
- It is not necessary to go through that analysis.
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