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I am not sure why you keep quoting this particular translation. Strictly speaking, there is nothing wrong with the word-by-word translation. But it needs to be evaluated in the context of someone below the Anagami stage.
“Yaṁ kho, bhikkhave, ime pañca kāmaguṇe paṭicca uppajjati sukhaṁ somanassaṁ—ayaṁ kāmānaṁ assādo.”
Your quoted translation: “The pleasure and happiness that arise from these five kinds of sensual stimulation: this is the gratification of sensual pleasures.”
Then you wrote: “Would Lal sir or anyone here disagree with me or feel that I’m mistaken if I believe / said or taught based on what I just quoted in Pali and the English translation that sukha, somanassa, piti “can” or “does” arise from kāmaguṇa and the sukha, somanassa, piti that arises from kāmaguṇa is kāma assāda?”
- Yes. “..sukha, somanassa, piti does arise from kāmaguṇa.
- Yes. “..sukha, somanassa, piti that arises from kāmaguṇa is kāma assāda.”
But for both those to hold, kāmaguṇa must arise in the person. That does happen in the case of a puthujjana and even in the case of a Sotapanna/Sakadagami because both are not released from the kama loka.
- But that will not happen to an Anagami/Arahant since they are released from the kama loka, i.e., they will never be reborn in kama loka.
- But unless an Anagami or an Arahant is in a jhana samapatti or a phala samapatti, they will still have the “kama sanna,” as I explained above.
Anyway, I plan to discuss these issues in upcoming posts.
The problem is with the translation, not in the original text.
The Pali version: “Saddaṁsuṇātītikathā“
The verse “Samāpanno saddaṁ suṇātīti? Āmantā. ” is translated as “That one who has attained Jhāna hears sound.”
- Samāpanno here means “one who is in a samapatti.”
But not everyone who can get into a jhana can get into the corresponding “jhana samapatti.” That is explained in the following:
9. When a mind transcends the kama loka, it gets to the mindset of rupāvacara Brahmas. Those are the jhānic states. Lower Brahma realms have lower jhānic states and higher Brahma realms have higher jhānic states.
- But when a human enters a jhāna (especially without much practice), the mind does not stay continuously in the jhāna citta stream. It alternates between jhānic citta vithi and pañcadvāra citta vithi belonging to the kama loka. Thus, the yogi may see and hear while in a jhānic state.
10. With practice, one could be experiencing jhānā citta vithi continuously for many minutes. That means the yogi will not be aware of any sensory inputs through the five physical senses; thus, he will not see, hear, etc. During that time, the yogi is in a jhāna samāpatti.
The above two bullet points are from the post: “Nirōdha Samāpatti, Phala Samāpatti, Jhāna, and Jhāna Samāpatti.“
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1. What you need to focus on is the following:
- “kāmaguṇa” are not intrinsic to the external object (arammana) being discussed. Those arise in one’s mind.
- However, similar (but not exactly the same) kāmaguṇa arise in the minds of a given species.
2. Let me give an extreme example to make that clear.
- A pig likes to eat all sorts of garbage, including feces. That is due to “kama sanna” for pigs.
- Humans are repelled even seeing feces. That is because “kama sanna” for humans is different.
- So, I hope that makes it clear that our revulsion for feces is not intrinsic to the feces; in the same way, the “attractiveness” of feces for pigs is not intrinsic to the feces.
3. That “species-specific” kama sanna arises automatically for anyone belonging to a given species based on the “natural bhavanga” one is born with.
- That is why a living Arahant (not in Arahant phala samadhi) likely also tastes sugar as sweet and lemon as sour (per kama sanna of humans.) However, their minds do not attach to any arammana with greed or revulsion.
- Furthermore, an Arahant in Arahant phala samadhi is unaware of any external arammana.
- Thus, even though Arahants have removed kāmaguṇa from their minds (and would not attach to any arammana,) it is likely that they automatically generate kama sanna. Of course, this needs to be confirmed by an Arahant.
I have revised #6 of that post as follows:
“Those things in this world that lead to such attachment and joyful feelings are those to which our ignorant minds assign “kāmaguṇa“ or “characteristics/sources of kāma.”
- Hopefully, that will make it clear. Thanks for pointing it out.
I am revising the post “Kāma Guṇa – Origin of Attachment (Tanhā).” I will post here when the revision is complete.
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Yes. That is correct. Thank you. I revised that as follows:
“Of course, it would be easier for a person with magga phala to attain Ariya jhāna. However, there could be Ariyas below the Anāgāmi stage with anāriya jhāna; they will be born in the corresponding Brahma realm and will attain Nibbāna from there.”
Good comment, Gad.
- Yes. In the “Māratajjanīya Sutta (MN 50)” Ven. Moggalana tells the Māra Devaputta that he was a Māra named Dūsī in the past. That was during the time of the Kakusandha Buddha, and the sutta describes how Dusi Māra injured one of that Buddha’s leading disciples, Venerable Vidhura.
- Then Ven. Moggalana described how he was born in an apaya because of that immoral deed before being born a human in his last birth. It is an informative read.
- (Note: Māra is the title of the leader of Devas in the “Paranimmita vasavattī Deva realm,” which is the highest Deva realm.)
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“From what I understand of kamma vipaka, it’s the avyākata PS. “
- Yes. However, a kamma vipaka does not have to result from a specific past kamma.
- Various arammana can come to mind via the six senses associated with the body, which arose due to past kamma.
“Based on the abhidhamma, are vipaka citta’s non-rooted (vipaka ahetu citta’s) or the 3 rooted (mula citta’s) or could be both?”
- A vipaka citta has no javana power; thus raga, dosa, or moha are not involved (ahetuka in that sense).
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“Since Mara is also something that tries to keep us in samsara, I made the connection to Kamaguna”.
- The following thread that I just posted could be helpful: “Dasa Māra Senā (Mārasenā).”
- Therefore, there is indeed a connection of Māra to kāma and kāmaguna.
The two people mentioned there appear to be regular people and not anagārikas.
- The Buddha delivered the Satipatthana Sutta to bhikkhus and not regular people.
- I will get into this issue in the upcoming posts, but Satipatthana Bhavana can be fully implemented only by bhikkhus, who can stay away from sensual pleasures and sexual activities in particular.
- Getting to the Sotapanna stage does not require Satipatthana. It requires the comprehension of Buddha’s worldview.
- However, progressing above the Sotapanna stage (especially the Anagami stage) requires relinquishing sensual pleasures. By definition, an Anagami would have removed the kama raga samyojana. That is not possible for a regular householder.
However, laypeople can use the basic framework. In fact, that is what one of those two people, Pessa, said to the Buddha in the verse you quoted: “For we white-clothed laypeople also from time to time meditate with our minds well established in the four kinds of mindfulness meditation.”
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1. Kamma and their vipaka (consequences) is a complex subject.
- The Buddha advised us not to try to analyze how they work. It is a subject fully comprehensible only to a Buddha.
- See “Acinteyya Sutta (AN 4.77).” There the Buddha lists four subjects that are not fully comprehensible by average humans. One of them is: “Kammavipāko, bhikkhave, acinteyyo, na cintetabbo;” OR “The results of kamma cannot be comprehended by average humans.”
2. However, the Buddha has given some general guidelines in several suttas. For example, see “Mahākammavibhaṅga Sutta (MN 136)” and “Cūḷakammavibhaṅga Sutta (MN 135)“
3. Regarding a Sotapanna: A Sotapanna is unlikely to engage in any akusala kamma unless it becomes unavoidable.
- For example, it is highly unlikely that a Sotapanna will willingly steal, lie, or engage in immoral actions, let alone kill a human. But there are situations where an immoral action may be unavoidable. It is only an Arahant who will NEVER be able to engage in immoral actions.
- The six actions are those that a Sotapanna will NEVER be able to commit for any reason.
4. The following posts may be helpful:
“The Five Precepts – What the Buddha Meant by Them”
“How to Evaluate Weights of Different Kamma”
“What is Kamma? – Is Everything Determined by Kamma?”“Kusala and Akusala Kamma, Punna and Pāpa Kamma”
“Ten Immoral Actions (Dasa Akusala)”
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I apologize for not responding to this comment; I saw it a little while ago while making the new thread. I somehow missed it (probably due to my traveling).
- By the way, the original post is “Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta – Distortion Timeline.”
- Please make sure to provide the link to the post in question.
Question: “It mentions that “the Buddha made it an offense to express Buddha dhamma in Sanskrit”. Does this mean that pretty much any / all languages can be used to express the Buddha dhamma besides Sanskrit?”
Yes. Sanskrit is a unique case that does not apply to any other language.
- Both Pali and Sanskrit evolved from a very ancient language that evolved into Magadhi (and got split into Pali and Sanskrit). The similarities can be easily seen.
- However, while both Magadhi and Pali kept the natural “phonetic words” (the meanings embedded in the words/sounds), Sanskrit words were artificially crafted to provide “musical overtones” and, in some cases, to make them deliberately complex. Only the high-class priests were supposed to speak/write Sanskrit.
- Examples: kamma to karma, dhamma to dharma, Paticca Samuppada to Pratītyasamutpāda, etc. I have explained that “Paticca Samuppada” embeds the meaning: “Paṭicca Samuppāda – “Pati+ichcha” + “Sama+uppāda” It is not so with “Pratītyasamutpāda.”
- Another evident problem is discussed in #7 of the post itself: “Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta – Distortion Timeline. Sanskrit replaced the Pali words anicca and anatta with anitya and anatma, which have VERY different meanings. It will not be easy to explain the concepts of anicca and anatta in Sanskrit.
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I have revised the post “Dasa Samyōjana – Bonds in Rebirth Process” because it is related to the above comment.
- Please feel free to ask questions/make comments on both of those posts. I plan to write more posts with this new approach; hopefully, that will provide more insights, especially regarding the “anicca nature” of this world.
- Buddha Dhamma can be explained in many different ways. I believe this approach could make it easier to grasp the concept of anicca (and dukkha and anatta as well.)
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Tobi, in his comment above, stated: “..this post was written because I wanted to know what jhanic sukha means.”
“Jhanic sukha” is explained in the post “Nirāmisa Sukha.”
- I wanted to read that post before providing the link. I just revised it and also revised the post “Three Kinds of Happiness – What is Nirāmisa Sukha?“
- If there are any questions/comments on these two posts, please make them in this thread.
——–
Also, I copied my above comment into a new thread, “Post on ‘True Happiness Is the Absence of Suffering’” because that comment is more relevant to the new post.
- If anyone has questions about that comment, please post in the new link.
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It is necessary to understand the sequential approach for recovering the “pabhassara citta” (i.e., get to Nibbana).
Please read the new post “True Happiness Is the Absence of Suffering” carefully. We need to fully understand it (by further discussions and via future posts) before discussing kama guna, etc, and how to get to the Anagami stage; see below.
One way to look at the step-by-step process of recovering the “pabhassara citta” is the following.
1. That “pabhassara citta” is covered by layers of defilements of raga, dosa, and moha (similar to a gem in the ground may be covered with layers of dirt.)
- We must remove those layers of dirt gradually to get to the “pabhassara citta.”
- One way to look at it is to use the ten samyojana as ten layers of dirt.
2. The first three layers on the top of the gem correspond to three samyojana of sakkaya ditthi, vicikicca, silabbata paramasa.
- Removal of those three layers is done ONLY by comprehending Four Noble Truths/Paticca Samuppada/Tilakkhana.
- One must learn the correct versions and fully understand them. A massive amount of raga, dosa, and moha is removed from the mind by UNDERSTANDING the correct worldview. This is the FIRST STEP.
- That will free a mind from rebirths in the apayas.
- One becomes a Sotapanna upon removing those three layers or the three samyojana.
3. The second step involves two layers of kama raga and patigha.
- Those layers are removed by practicing what is learned in #2 above. That is practicing Anapanasati/Satipatthana.
- That is the hardest SECOND STEP.
- A Soatapanna has to go through the Sakadagami stage and then get to the Anagami stage. That will make a mind free of rebirths in kama loka (apayas, human realm, and six Deva realms) completely. An Anagami can be reborn only in a rupavacara Brahma realm.
- Anariya yogis cultivate anariya jhana and are reborn in Brahma realms (by skipping the realms in the kama loka) ONLY in the NEXT rebirth. But they do that without breaking ANY of those five samyojana involved in #2 and #3. That means they don’t REMOVE defilements (raga, dosa, moha) but only SUPPRESS them temporarily. So, they can be reborn in the apayas in the future, i.e., they are not released from the apayas.
- Understanding kama guna and getting rid of them (and thus becoming free of rebirths in the kama loka) happens in this SECOND STEP.
4. Last five of the ten samyojana are removed at the Arahant stage. Then the mind will be free of rebirths in the arupavacara Brahma realms, also. That is the THIRD STEP.
5. Therefore, it is essential to get through the first step before being ABLE TO cultivate Ariya jhana. It is useless to cultivate anariya jhana.
- The key to getting through the first step is to remove sakkaya ditthi, the first samyojana. That will automatically remove the other two: vicikicca and silabbata paramasa.
- Removal of sakkaya ditthi means comprehending the anicca nature.
- I highly recommend re-reading the recent post mentioned at the top of the comment. That is the basis of a series of new posts where I will discuss another way to understand the “anicca nature” of this world and remove sakkaya ditthi.
6. Even for those who may have gotten to the Sotapanna Anugami/Sotapanna stages, understanding the new series will be helpful in making further progress, i.e., how to cultivate Ariya jhana and remove the two samyojana of kama raga and patigha.
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