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Thanks for the reference on AN 2.36.
- This is the first time I have encountered the terms “ajjhatta samyojana” and “bahidda samyojana.”
- I did a search and did not see any other sutta with those terms.
- Other than the usage of those “unusual terms,” the meanings are the same, i.e., “ajjhatta samyojana” = orambhagiya samyojana and “bahidda samyojana” = uddhambhagiya samyojana.
- However, I do not see a connection between those and ajjhatta vinnana and bahidda vinnana.
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The quoted statement, “’paṭisaṃvedī’ or “paṭisanvedi” (“paṭi + “san” + “vedi“) means vedana due to bonds with “san” becoming apparent” is correct.
- The verse, “Nāhaṁ, bhikkhave, sañcetanikānaṁ kammānaṁ katānaṁ upacitānaṁ appaṭisaṁveditvā byantībhāvaṁ vadāmi,” appears in several suttas including “Paṭhamasañcetanika Sutta (AN 10.217)“ and “Karajakāya Sutta (AN 10.219).”
- The first sutta was discussed in “Paṭhamasañcetanika Sutta (AN 10.217),” and a link is provided to the previous discussion on the second sutta.
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Per the above, one cannot attain the Arahant stage without “patisamvedi” taking place.
- That is what is meant by “‘Sabbakāyapaṭisaṁvedī assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘sabbakāyapaṭisaṁvedī passasissāmī’ti sikkhati” in the “Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22).”
- Also see #7 of the post “Kāyānupassanā – The Section on Habits (Sampajanapabba)“
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Q1: There are several aspects to consider:
1. “Javana power” in javana citta increases with each subsequent javana citta in a given citta vithi.
- Then, in the second citta vithi, the same happens. But the first javana citta in the second citta vithi is STRONGER than the first javana citta in the first citta vithi.
- That process holds for all subsequent citta vithi.
- Thus, one should see that javana power increases with each second/minute one is focused on that arammana.
- Always think using examples. Watch a person (even oneself) getting angrier by the minute. In an argument, both people will get angrier the more they stay in that argument. In another example, one sees a beautiful woman. If one keeps looking at her, lusty thoughts keep growing.
2. The suttas describe the “growth of attachment” differently. Of course, both are related.
- The sutta version is explained, for example, in the “Sanidāna Sutta (SN 14.12).“ The following is extracted from #10 of the post “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation”:
“10. The “Sanidāna Sutta (SN 14.12)“ points out the general sequence of steps involved in kamma accumulation based on any sensory input in kāma loka. We discussed that in the post “Upaya and Upādāna – Two Stages of Attachment.”
- “Kāma dhātuṁ, bhikkhave, paṭicca uppajjati kāma saññā, kāma saññaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāma saṅkappo, kāma saṅkappaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāmacchando, kāmacchandaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāma pariḷāho, kāma pariḷāhaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāma pariyesanā.” OR “Attachment to kāma dhātu leads to kāma saññā, attachment to kāma saññā leads to kāma saṅkappa, attachment to kāma saṅkappa leads to kāmacchanda..and so on to kāma pariyesanā.“
Here, the time sequence is Kāma dhātu to kāma saññā (“distorted saññā”) to kāma saṅkappa (initial thoughts with a low level of kama raga ) that automatically arise due to anusaya/samyojana) to stronger kāmacchanda (getting “blinded by kama raga“) to even stronger kāma pariḷāha (“burning with kama raga” and trying to fulfill one’s desires ASAP) to kāma pariyesanā (urgently thinking about various ways to fulfill the desire.)
- A person would engage in various verbal and bodily activities by the end. One could be tempted to engage in verbal harassment, stealing, raping, killing, etc, depending on the situation.
- See “Kāmaccandha and Icca – Being Blinded by Cravings.”
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Q2: What are ” bahidda samyojana”? I am not aware of such a concept.
- Rupa raga, arupa raga, mana, uddacca, avijja are the five higher samyojana (removed at the Arahant stage). There are three samyojana (sakkaya ditthi, vicikiccha, silabbata paramasa) removed at the Sotapanna stage and two (kama raga, patigha) removed at the Anagami stage.
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Yes. A single citta vithi is gone in a split second. The Buddha said billions of citta vithi can run within the “blink of an eye.”
- When a mind starts focusing on a sensory input (if it is interesting), attachment to it grows with each second.
- That is why one must be mindful and stop “running with it” in the early stages.
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Yes. Buddhists understand that such activities are meaningless and only bind oneself to kama loka.
- Watching movies (without educational value) for entertainment, playing video games, etc., belong in the same category.
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Yes. That video is an example of one aspect of the anicca nature.
- More examples in “Anicca – Inability to Keep What We Like.”
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I have revised the post “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation” per the above discussion.
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All akusala kamma start as mano sankhara. The following is important to know in reference to the “javana citta analysis” you are investigating.
- Once the mind decides to act on an arammana at the votthapana stage, seven javana cittas flow.
- The attachment to the arammana (and one’s feelings about it) increases with each javana citta up to the fifth and then tapers off in the sixth and the seventh. It is like a runner getting started, accelerating, then slowing down, and stopping at the end.
- First, mano sankharas dominate the first two javana citta. Vaci sankharas start in the third and get stronger in the fourth leading to speech (vaci kamma). The fifth javana is the strongest, and one does kaya kamma with kaya sankhara with the fifth. Then the javana power decreases in the sixth and seventh.
- Also, kammas do not occur with one javana citta. There are millions of such citta vithi per second, and the role of each javana citta gets stronger with time. I tried to explain that in the video conference that we had a few months ago.
Link to the forum thread: “Pure Dhamma zoom meeting!“
- Seng Kiat posted the following notes there on January 14, 2024 at 8:03 pm: Download “Dhamma discussion – 14th January Notes”:
Link: Google Drive
The last (fifth) slide there explains that idea.
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Yes. Even though Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote that book on Abhidhamma (a translation, as I pointed out), he may not fully believe that Abhidhamma is the “word of the Buddha.”
- It would be good if he gets to read that post and learn about that Tipitaka reference in the Vinaya Pitaka.
- Again, thanks to TripleGemStudent for emailing me that reference.
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Yes. Bahidda vinnana is NOT kamma vinnana; bahidda vinnana is a vipaka vinnana.
- Kamacchanda is the same everywhere. It is a strong attachment to sensual pleasures.
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An Arahant does generate the bahidda kaya with bahidda vinnana. I need to revise the figure and #5 of “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation” post. The revised figure is shown below. Let me know if there are remaining questions so that I can answer them when I revise that post.
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Q1, Q2, Q3: Ajjhatta kāya = ajjhatta rupa, ajjhatta vedana, ajjhatta sanna, ajjatta sankhara, ajjhatta vinnana AND Bahidda kāya = bahidda rupa, bahidda vedana, bahidda sanna, bahidda sankhara, bahidda vinnana.
- In other words, ajjhatta and bahidda kāya are parts of the panca upadanakkhandha. In many instances, the Buddha referred to panca upadanakkhandha as “kāya” in the sense of “collection.” For example, “kāye kāyānupassi viharati” refers to the contemplation of panca upādānakkhandha. P.S. In the same way, “vedanāsu vedanānupassi viharati” refers to the contemplation of the types of vedanā in panca upādānakkhandha. “Citte cittānupassi viharati” refers to the contemplation of citta (overall effect of vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana.) “Dhamme dhammānupassi viharati” refers to the contemplation of all those concepts.
- In the suttas (and in Abhidhamma), each of the entities rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, and vinnana (components of the pancakkhandha (or panca upadanakkhandha) are shown to have 11 components: atita, anāgata, paccuppanna, ajjhatta, bahiddha, oḷārika, sukhuma, hīna, paṇīta, dūre, santike.
- P.S. Here, “atita, anāgata, paccuppanna” is one way to separate out. Ajjhatta,bahiddha, or oḷārika, sukhuma or hīna, paṇīta or dūre, santike are other ways. There is overlap among them. For example, Ajjhatta rupa includes atita, anāgata, and paccuppanna types/variations of rupa.
That is discussed in detail for rupa in the post “Difference Between Physical Rūpa and Rūpakkhandha.” (a similar division of 11 types holds for vedana, sanna, sankhara, and vinnana.) The following is extracted from that post:
- Altogether there are 11 types included in rūpakkhandha. The Khandha sutta (SN 22.48) (among many other suttā) summarizes what is included in rūpakkhandha. “Yaṃ kiñci, bhikkhave, rūpaṃ atītānāgatapaccuppannaṃ (atita, anāgata, paccuppanna) ajjhattaṃ vā bahiddhā vā oḷārikaṃ vā sukhumaṃ vā hīnaṃ vā paṇītaṃ vā yaṃ dūre santike vā, ayaṃ vuccati rūpakkhandho.”
- The 11 types are past, future, current, internal, external, coarse, subtle, good, bad, far, and near.
This is a bit complex but essential issue. It took me some time to figure out the details. I may have made some contradictory statements in the two posts you mentioned. I will take a look at them and make the necessary corrections ASAP. Thank you for pointing them out.
- This is why I plan to discuss these aspects in more detail in the upcoming posts. (A bit more understanding of Abhidhamma can help, so I am now spending some time on that aspect.) They are deeper aspects that connect the “distorted sanna” concept with Satipatthana/Anapanasati.
- I know that you are trying hard to get a handle on these issues. I assure you that I will get into these issues. But please keep posting comments so I know which areas/concepts need more clarification.
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In the first post in “Elephant in the Room 1 – Direct Translation of the Tipiṭaka,“ I have explained this issue by giving an example.
- I see that I forgot to add that post to that section. I just now added it.
- Here is that post: “Distortion of Pāli Keywords in Paṭicca Samuppāda.”
- Please read that post and ask questions on unclear bullet numbers.
No. Chanting suttas is not the way to learn. After learning the meanings embedded in those verses, one could chant them with understanding.
No, the Commentaries will not help either. First, one needs to sort out which Commentaries are reliable. For example, Visuddhimagga is not. I mentioned the reliable Commentaries included in the Tipitaka in those posts. However, even those cannot be understood without some basics.
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Good observations.
Main points to consider:
1. There is no need to read the whole Tipitaka. The three main main sections (Pitaka) serve different purposes.
- It is the Sutta Pitaka that needs laypeople’s attention the most.
- The Vinaya Pitaka is mainly for the bhikkhus. However, the background of the reason the Buddha established a given Vinaya rule can be informative. For example, the rule not to translate the Tipitaka into Sanskrit was based on a request by two Brahmins who were knowledgeable in the Vedas. See #13 of “Misinterpretation of Anicca and Anatta by Early European Scholars.” Furthermore, there are two books on Thergatha and Therigatha (verses by male and female Arahants) how they cultivated their paths and the concepts they struggled with, etc.
- The Abhidhamma Pitaka is for those who like to be thorough and want to “dig deeper.” Even then, it is not necessary (or even possible) to read all of it.
2. Tipitaka cannot be read like reading a set of novels or even textbooks on various mundane subjects. One must (at least until the Sotapanna stage) rely on a Noble Person (Ariya) to explain the basic concepts.
- First of all, most suttas are highly condensed. Even someone with a knowledge of Pali will not be able to grasp the concepts/ideas embedded in the suttas.
- It gets much worse if one tries to read the “word-by-word” English translations, as I have explained in many posts: “Elephant in the Room 1 – Direct Translation of the Tipiṭaka“
3. For example, I read comparatively little of the Pali Tipitaka in the first few years of this website’s existence. I mainly listened to the discourses by Waharaka Thero and a few others on the internet.
- Shortly after Waharaka Thero‘s passing, I started allocating significant time to reading relevant suttas in the Pali Tipitaka.
- Both the English and Sinhala translations of the Tipitaka were useless for me.
- Of course, before coming into contact with Waharaka Thero‘s desanas, I had read both English and Sinhala translations (in my school days in the early years) and had many issues to resolve. The incorrect translations caused many inconsistencies.
- While in Sri Lanka, I learned Buddhism as a subject until high school, and I studied Abhidhamma and Pali on my own. Luckily, it is easier for those good in the Sinhala language to learn Pali; there are many common words (for example, all the terms in Paticca Samuppada are the same in Pali and Sinhala.) But all that stopped after high school until I retired in 2009. Only after retiring did I start looking into Buddha Dhamma again and was fortunate to come across Waharaka Thero‘s discourses on the internet. Of course, I had been in the USA for most of that time.
I hope that will help clarify some questions. Please feel free to ask questions.
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I just came across the following informative video. It is an account of an investigation by a cardiologist (Dr. Miachael Sabom) who interviewed many patients with NDE experiences.
Dr. Sabom has also written two books, “ “Light and Death,” on the subject.
- He says the first book is “more scientific,” and in the second, he probably tried to connect to concepts in Christianity.
Good point, Taryal!
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