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Very good, Taryal and TGS! But we can dig a bit deeper.
1. This sutta is specifically about “paṭiccasamuppannā dhammā,” i.e., those entities that arise via Paṭicca Samuppāda.”
- All the terms in Paṭicca Samuppāda arise due to causes and conditions and, therefore, can be stopped from arising.
- Obviously, the Buddha (and Arahants) have done that.
- All the terms in Paṭicca Samuppāda are “paṭiccasamuppannā dhammā.” See “Paccaya Sutta (SN 12.20).”
2. Another set of entities (dhammā) that DO NOT arise for a Buddha (and Arahants) are rupa, vedanā, saññā, saṅkhāra, and viññāna in pañcupādānakkhandhā (pañca upādānakkhandhā).
- Since five entities have stopped arising in Buddha, rupa DO NOT imply rupa in the external world. They refer to “rupa” that arise in the mind together with defilements. Obviously, the Buddha can see, hear, smell, etc., things in the external world.
- Similarly, vedanā, saññā, saṅkhāra, and viññāna DO NOT refer to all vedana (only samphassa-jā-vedanā), all saññā (only upādāna for saññā), all saṅkhāra (only abhisaṅkhāra), or all viññāna (only kamma viññāna.)
- Those five entities can also be written as rupa upādānakkhandha, vedanā upādānakkhandha, saññā upādānakkhandha, saṅkhāra upādānakkhandha, and viññāṇa upādānakkhandha.
3. In the “Bāhuna Sutta (AN 10.81)” all five entities in #2 are listed, but only five from #1 are listed.
4. We can also relate to the material discussed regarding “distorted saññā” in the sections “Sotapanna Stage via Understanding Perception (Saññā)” and “Meditation – Deeper Aspects.”
- The root cause for the arising of rupa upādānakkhandha, vedanā upādānakkhandha, saññā upādānakkhandha, saṅkhāra upādānakkhandha, and viññāṇa upādānakkhandha is the arising of ajjhatta rupa, ajjhatta vedanā, ajjhatta saññā, ajjhatta saṅkhāra, and ajjhatta viññāṇa BASED ON “distorted saññā.“
- It may have become apparent to some. But it will hopefully become more evident in the upcoming posts.
P.S. I see that TripleGemStudent posted a comment about #2 above. Very good!
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The translation at Sutta Central: “Bāhuna Sutta (AN 10.81)”
The key verse to be understood is:
“katihi nu kho, bhante, dhammehi tathāgato nissaṭo visaṁyutto vippamutto vimariyādīkatena cetasā viharatī”ti?”
Sutta Central translation: “Sir, how many things has the Realized One escaped from, so that he lives detached, liberated, his mind free of limits?”
AccesstoInsight translation Taryal provided: “Lord, freed, dissociated, & released from how many things does the Tathagata dwell with unrestricted awareness?”
The Buddha stated: “Dasahi kho, vāhana, dhammehi tathāgato nissaṭo visaṁyutto vippamutto vimariyādīkatena cetasā viharati. Katamehi dasahi?” OR “Bāhuna, the Realized One has escaped from ten things, so that he lives detached, liberated, his mind free of limits.” (Sutta Central translation).
Then, the sutta says there are ten things that the Buddha (tathāgato) is free from: Rūpena kho, vāhana, tathāgato nissaṭo visaṁyutto vippamutto vimariyādīkatena cetasā viharati, vedanāya kho, vāhana …pe… saññāya kho, vāhana … saṅkhārehi kho, vāhana … viññāṇena kho, vāhana … jātiyā kho, vāhana … jarāya kho, vāhana … maraṇena kho, vāhana … dukkhehi kho, vāhana … kilesehi kho, vāhana, tathāgato nissaṭo visaṁyutto vippamutto vimariyādīkatena cetasā viharati.
Can anyone point out how to express those ten things? I think the answers should come from you all rather than me.
- This is what is involved in insight meditation!
Hadaya vatthu can generate suddhatthaka and also kammic energies below the suddhatthaka level (dhammā.)
- Those at or above the suddhatthaka level are released to the physical world as utuja rupa while javana cittas arise.
- Those below the suddhatthaka level are released to vinnana dhatu as dhammā while javana cittas arise. Then such kammic energies (dhammā) stay in vinnana dhatu until their vipakas are brought; they decay with time, and some become nullified without bringing vipaka.
Regarding the question: “I would like to know how the manomaya kaya gives commands to the physical body.”
- The manomaya kaya has a blueprint of the physical body. The physical body grows according to that blueprint. As the physical body grows, manomaya kaya (also called a “kirana kaya” because it is a subtle body, essentially the gandhabba) also “expands.” The brain in the physical body overlaps “the brain” in the manomaya kaya and transfers the processed information on sensory inputs to the manomaya kaya. The hadaya vatthu gets that information via the manomaya kaya.
- It would be the reverse process when the hadaya vatthu sends commands to the brain, for example, to move body parts.
Yes. Those are good summaries.
#6 can be improved.
- Vinnanakkhandha synthesizes the above four (nama and rupa).
- Bahidda vinnana (vipaka vinnana) = only nama; ajjhatta vinnana (kamma vinnana) is the beginning of making namarupa.
- That “namarupa formation” enhances as the mind gets further contaminated in subsequent steps.
#7: Rupakkhandha and vinnanakkhandha help distinguish between nama, rupa, and namarupa (with kamma vinnana).
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Yes. That is a good point.
- All five entities in pancupadanakkhandha (rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana) are of 11 types: “Yaṁ kiñci, bhikkhave, rūpaṁ atītānāgatapaccuppannaṁ ajjhattaṁ vā bahiddhā vā oḷārikaṁ vā sukhumaṁ vā hīnaṁ vā paṇītaṁ vā yaṁ dūre santike vā, ayaṁ vuccati rūpakkhandho.” There, “ajjhattaṁ vā bahiddhā vā” refers to the ajjhatta rupa and bahidda rupa. The same applies to the other four entities. All those ajjhatta and bahidda entities occur in the ajjhatta and bahiddha stages at the beginning of a sensory attachment process.
- See “Khandha Sutta (SN 22.48).”
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Dosakhayo asked: “So, the altered rupa is bahidda rupa, and cakkuvinneyya rupa is ajjhatta rupa?”
Yes. That can be understood as follows.
1. The “Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjāti cakkhu viññāṇaṃ“ includes both the bahiddha viññāṇa and the ajjhatta viññāṇa stages.
2. In #10 of that post, one way to describe the gradual attachment process (within a citta vithi) is stated: “Kāma dhātuṁ, bhikkhave, paṭicca uppajjati kāma saññā, kāma saññaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāma saṅkappo, kāma saṅkappaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāmacchando,..” Here, ““Kāma dhātuṁ, bhikkhave, paṭicca uppajjati kāma saññā” represent the bahiddha viññāṇa. Then, “kāma saññaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāma saṅkappo” is the ajjhatta viññāṇa stage. That ajjhatta viññāṇa stage will occur for anyone with kāma rāga anusaya/samyojana, i.e., anyone below the Anagami stage.
3. That same process is described differently in the “Chachakka Sutta (MN 148)” (as described in the other post I mentioned “Indriya Make Phassa and Āyatana Make Samphassa”) as “Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjāti cakkhu viññāṇaṃ, tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso.”
4. Both the bahiddha viññāṇa and the ajjhatta viññāṇa stages are included in the “Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjāti cakkhu viññāṇaṃ” step in that representation.
5. After the “kāma saññaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāma saṅkappo” step comes “kāma saṅkappaṁ paṭicca uppajjati kāmacchando.” This is the second step (tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso) in the other representation of the same event: “Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjāti cakkhu viññāṇaṃ, tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso.” This step happens based on the “saṅ gati” present at that moment. Thus, even for the same person, the level of attachment depends on the state of the mind at that moment.
6. Note the difference in #2 and #5.
- #2: Regardless of the mindset, ANYONE below the Anagami stage WILL generate the ajjhatta viññāṇa.
- #5: However, a strong attachment to the sensory input with kāmacchanda may not happen for someone in a calm mindset trying to be mindful. Controlling this step with “mindfulness” (sila) can gradually eliminate kāma rāga anusaya/samyojana. Of course, cultivating wisdom (paññā) is also needed. As one cultivates paññā and sila, one’s mind will get to samādhi. That, in turn, will help further cultivate paññā and sila, and so on to elevate all three: sila, samādhi, paññā. Eventually, it is paññā that breaks the kāma rāga anusaya/samyojana. That is the Satipatthana/Anapanasati Bhavana!
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Yes. Saññā can be of many types.
- Some (kāma saññā) can lead to “defiled actions, speech, and thoughts” or “kamma accumulation” that can bring their vipaka in the future.
- However, some saññā depend on our viewing angle (like in the case of your pictures), and they do not necessarily lead to kamma accumulation. Of course, such confusion can be a hindrance to “samadhi.”
The first two pictures of Tobi provide good examples of how the same picture can lead to two different saññā.
- Labeling in the second set makes it easier to “see” (i.e., provide the saññā) of a young man and a young woman.
- Now, replace the two labels “ear” and “chin” with “eye” and “nose.” Then you can “see” an old man and an old woman.
I have seen the “young/old woman” picture in a book. I don’t remember the name of the book.
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Cakkhu viññāṇa in “Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjāti cakkhu viññāṇaṃ“ is already an ajjhatta viññāṇa. However, nava kamma (with strong kammic energy) accumulation starts after the “tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso” step.
- That may not be explained well in the old posts like “Indriya Make Phassa and Āyatana Make Samphassa.”
It is explained better in the newer post, “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation.” See #6 of that post.
- I need to go out for a few hours. You can read those two posts carefully and ask further questions. I will have more time later to explain it better if you have questions.
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“I think this types of saññā can be called bahidda saññā.”
- Yes. That is exactly right.
- “Bahidda” comes from “bahira” + “iddha,” where “bahira” is external and “iddha” means “get established.” Note that “iddhi” is different and means “supernormal powers.”
- Thus, “bahidda sanna” is a sanna that arises due to external sensory inputs and automatically “established” or ‘manifested’ in a sentient being. Kama sanna (like the taste of food or the beauty of a woman) is built into our human bodies. They give rise to “mind-made vedana” or “samphassa-ja-vedana.”
- Puthujjana (or even a Sotapanna) may attach to such “mind-made vedana” because they do not understand that they are not “real” at a deeper level. Once that mechanism is understood, one realizes that one has been “tricked” by nature!
The “bahidda sanna” evolves into “ajjhatta sanna” for all those who have not fully grasped the above.
- Here “ajjhatta” comes from “ajjha” + “atta” where “ajjha” means “oneself” and “atta” means “beneficial/meaningful.”
- Those below the Anagami stage (who have not fully grasped how “bahidda sanna” arises, would automatically be attached to that “bahidda sanna,” thinking it would benefit oneself.
- That is what I tried to explain in that post. Yes. You seem to have gotten the idea!
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You are making progress.
You wrote: ” I still have a sexual appetite and am still a bit lazy about formal meditation,..”
- Sexual apatite goes away only at the Anagami stage. Our bodies are “made’ (via Paticca Samuppada) to generate sexual urges. Our minds (more accurately, the seat of the mind or hadaya vatthu) are also “made” to create a sanna of “sweetness of sugar” or “pleasant smell of a rose.” Read and understand the new post: “Saññā Gives Rise to Most of the Vedanā We Experience.”
- The tendency to engage in meditation will increase as you gain more understanding. Remember, meditation is not restricted to sitting down and doing a “formal meditation session.” While that should be done too, one must constantly think about how defilements arise in everyday situations and avoid harmful actions, i.e., “being mindful all the time.”
You wrote: “I’m not picky about eating as long as it’s appropriate, my clothes are simple, the important thing is neat and polite, I don’t use hair or body perfume, everything is simple and I think it reduces my attachment and makes me much more relaxed. “
- Yes. That happens naturally and gradually as one’s understanding increases.
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Question 1: “Magga here means Path?”
- Yes.
By the statement, “As we know the solution to the calculation 3×2 = 3+3 or 2+2+2” if you mean 2 for magga and phala, then there are 8 for the four stages of Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami, Arahant.
Question 2: Yes. The description is generally correct.
You are making progress. Keep it up!
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Yash wrote: “True ! but such people can counter question the Dhamma by asking the same question.
“If you are a Sakadagami and will be born in a Heavenly plane, why don’t you die?”
- But we know that a Sakadagami who dies will be reborn as a Sakadagami. He will not attain Arahanthood by dying! So it is not the same.
Essentially, any realm in this world has anicca, dukkha, and anatta nature. Sometimes, asubha is also used to characterize the world.
The following summarizes it all. Only a pabhassara mind does not have any of those characteristics.
The above chart is from the post “Vipariṇāma – Two Meanings.”
Yash asked: “Are Jhanas also of Asubha Nature?”
- Yes. They do. The mindset of jhanas is the sama as those in rupa loka realms.
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Pathfinder wrote: “Let’s say we can be born a brahma and live as a brahma permanently (no rebirth), would you still say that this is anicca?”
- But impermanence is a part of anicca nature.
- Any existence in this world (including a Brahma) is a sankhata, and every sankhata has a finite lifetime. At a deeper level, any existence arises via kammic energy generated in the mind. That cannot give rise to a permanent entity because it was created by a finite energy. When that energy runs out, any existence comes to an end.
- So, Yash’s particular statement you quoted is not entirely correct. We cannot even assume a sankhata to be permanent.
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