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Yes. It is a beautiful verse, y not.
The sutta is about the merits that one receive due to punna kamma (good deeds) sooner or later. That comes from the whole sutta, even though the verse does not say it specifically.
So, I think the meaning of the verse will be more clear this way:
Human good fortune,
delight in the world of the gods,
even the ATTAINMENT of Nibbana,
through this merit they receive from good deeds.“Behaviour arises in two ways;
-1. Habitually, conditionally arising, impulsive, not free
-2. From emptiness, or ourselves, spontaneous, free.”How can behavior arise from emptiness? Thing do not “just happen”. There is always a cause(s).
Behavior arising form ourselves is the same as 1 above.
“There comes a time when one also sees and really feels doing habitually good is not pure. One senses that it is not stainless, because anything habitual cannot be stainless, because all habitual behaviour is grounded in avijja.”
You may want to explain why that is true.
Thank you very much, upekkha100!
I just revised both those posts to make necessary corrections.
Please let me know any kind of mistakes. We want this site to be “error free” as much as possible. I do make mistakes (there could be some especially in older posts), and I would appreciate anyone pointing out any errors.
I think the key is “ragakkhayo Nibbanam,dosakkhayo Nibbanam,mohakkhayo Nibbanam”.
Nibbana is attained by eliminating greed, hate, and ignorance (of the Four Noble Truths) completely.
When that happens, one would have cultivated ALL sobhana cetasika to the maximum. So, it is not correct to say that any sobhana cetasika (including metta, karuna, etc) would be eliminated.
Sobhana cetasika also include alobha and adosa. amoha comes via the panna (wisdom) cetasika; see, “Cetasika (Mental Factors)“.
What happens is the when panna is optimum, one not only sees the futility of staying in the rebirth process, but one’s sanna and citta will also be automatically adjusted to that.
Then one’s mind will not grasp (upadana) any bhava at the cuti-patisandhi moment.
If I have stated that alobha, adosa, amoha will also be removed at Nibbana, please let me know.
Yeos: I assume you are talking about “San” and not “Sun”? I have changed “Sun” in the title of the topic to “San”.
Here is the sub section on “san”: San
“The intellectual understanding of the “why” it’s not difficult…
but what is your understanding on the subject ?”I have understood the need to stop rebirth in all realms. I have no desire to be reborn anywhere in the 31 realms.
But I have not yet removed the “sanna” or the perception of “asmi mana” or a “self”. This is a complex subject and that is all I am going to say on that.
Nikita said: “So, if I get it right, that means that manomaya kaya of a bodybuilder does actually get bigger when he’s growing in size.”
We cannot look at the gandhabba kaya (or the manomaya kaya) in the same way that we look at or perceive a physical body.
– Gandhabba kaya is more like an energy field that can expand with the physical body.
– When the gandhabba kaya comes out of a dead physical body and has to wait for another womb, it can grow in “density” by absorbing various odors. Then it can become somewhat like a “fine misty figure” that some humans can even see (or be captured in some photographs). I think that is how the concept of a “ghost” came about.
– That “ghostly figure” resembles that of the previous human body. It may grow “hair” and “finger nails” (in fine form) with time and that is why they look scary. Even a normal human would look scary after a few years of not cutting hair and finger nails.Yeos said: “The above should be understood as kusala kamma not having any influence upon rebirth?”
Yes. It does. Kusala kamma help one attain Nibbana, or stop the rebirth process, starting with rebirths in the four lowest realms at the Sotapanna stage.
– Punna kamma help with that too, since they help one avoid rebirths in the apayas: “Kusala and Akusala Kamma, Punna and Pāpa Kamma“.Most of us cannot understand yet why one needs to stop rebirths in all realms. That does not need to be contemplated until one gets to the Anagami stage.
upekkha100:
“1) When one does punnabhisankhara, are the sense faculties ayatana here as well?”
Yes. Punnabhisankhara also lead to rebirths. Even though they are in “good realms”, the rebirth process will continue. As long as one is in the rebirth process without attaining a magga phala, one is likely to be reborn in an apaya at some point.
– Yes. In this case also indriya are used as ayatana.Another thing to keep mind is that punna kamma become kusala kamma if there is no greed or avijja associated with that act. The that would not count towards rebirth.
– For example, if one donates something out of pure compassion, that is a kusala kamma. It could become just a punna kamma if there are “any expectations” for that giving.
– In any case, one should definitely do such acts without worrying too much about that distinction. Getting rebirths in good realms is a must until one gets to a magga phala.Regarding indriya bhavana:
You said: ‘But when we do good deeds, to eventually make these good deeds not be rooted in alobha/adosa/amoha.”Actually, when one’s understanding increases, one’s wisdom (panna) will grow. Then one would be AUTOMATICALLY doing most deeds with panna or with understanding of the anicca nature.
– Then one would be doing more deeds with metta, karuna,mudita, upekkha.The higher the understanding, the more power those thoughts will have.
– So, that is not something easy to force. It comes with understanding.You said: “Without good deeds, Nibbana will be difficult to attain.”
Exactly right. One should NEVER shy away from punna kamma. As our understanding grows, those will automatically become kusala kamma. We don’t need to worry whether they are punna kamma or kusala kamma.firewns:
Kammic energy is defined at the beginning of a bhava. So, when it runs out one will leave the existing bhava regardless of which form it is in.
So, if it runs out while in the gandhabba state, the gandhabba will cease to exist and the new life-form will start.
– For example, if the new bhava is a deva bhava, then a deva will appear in the deva loka instantaneously.If the kammic energy runs out for a human baby, the baby will die and the new life-form will start.
– For example, if the new bhava is an animal bhava, an animal gandhabba will come out of the dead body of that baby.
– By the way, this why some healthy young people just drop and die. They could have been very healthy. But of course there will be a medical reason, for example, “an unexpected” heart attack could have been the cause.Yes. I believe that translation is good.
“are the English translations correct? Is this one of those suttas that is straightforward and sufficient as is? Or is there a deeper meaning behind the surface meaning? Does it need patiniddesa(need to be described in detail)?”
Yes to the first two and no to the last two.
It is not a deep sutta, but as you say it is an important sutta.
upekkha100’s questions:
“1) Does pavutti kamma bhava mean one will get the vipaka only within this current bhava we are in right now? Or does it also involve vipaka in future bhava that will come after this current bhava?”They could occur in this bhava or future bhava.
“2) Does uppatthi kamma bhava mean a vipaka that is an entirely brand new bhava/existence?”
Yes. That is a new bhava, not a jati within a bhava. For example, when one is in the human bhava, one may be born (jati) many times with a physical human body, and in between those, one lives with just the mental body (gandhabba).
Cuti-patisandhi (or grasping a new bhava) happens only when the kammic energy for the current bhava is totally exhausted. When that happens the above human may grasp a new bhava of a deva, brahma, animal, etc.
Nikita said: “But then it was also said that vaci sankhara (including talking to oneself) can be considered as kamma pata..”
Yes. You are right. If I said that, that is not really correct.
“Talking to oneself” is a vaci sankhara, and it is an apunnabi sankhara.
However, it becomes a “kamma pata” only if it is really carried out: For example, if actually killing or hurting someone or actually spreading a falsehood to hurt someone, etc.“Talking to oneself” is bad because it defiles one’s mindset, even if one does not carry it out. For example, “day dreaming about sex” is bad even though it does not hurt someone else, because it becomes a pancanivarana, and blocks one’s mind from getting to samadhi.
– Then it would also become easier to actually carry out a kamma pata eventually.
