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Tobias wrote: “..But we all have heard about people who saw the new distination already days before the death. ..Will the new bhava be confirmed only in the last moments of the old life?”
Yes. That ārammana (thought object) starts to come to the mind even days before cuti-patisandhi moment in the last citta vithi.
P.S. This happens to reinforce that ārammana in the mind.Suppose it is a human who is about to grasp a new lower bhava (in the apāyās). If the person has removed “apāyagāmi gathi”, that ārammana will not take hold. If it does not take hold, then the “next strong vipāka in line” will come to the mind. That will go on until an ārammana for a “good bhava” (compatible with the Sotapanna stage, for example) comes to the mind. Then it will not be rejected by the mind, and it will stay there until the last citta vithi, where it will be grasped.
What person X experiences is experienced by X’s gandhabba (mental body). Specifically, it is the hadaya vatthu of the gandhabba where thoughts are generated. That hadaya vatthu overlaps the heart (not in the heart).
In order to generate thoughts, the hadaya vatthu MUST first get a sense input from one of the six senses (five physical senses and the mana indriya that is located in the brain).
Therefore, if the brain in not active, the hadaya vatthu does not get any sense input, and thus cannot generate any thoughts.
When one is unconscious, one’s brain does not function. That is why one does not generate any thoughts while unconscious.
During deep sleep also parts of the brain are inactive. That is why we don’t generate thoughts during sleep, especially while in deep sleep called the REM state.
I have given an analogy to explain this in #8 and #9 of the following post:
“Our Mental Body – Gandhabba”I see that the linking tool is not working. Here is the web address for that post:
Did you not read the post itself?
Misconceptions on the Topics the Buddha “Refused to Answer”In that post I pointed out that the Buddha indeed answered those “unanswered questions”.
Yes. I said, ” IF YOU CAN PROVIDE A LINK to the Pāli sutta..”
You did not provide a link to the Pali sutta with the relevant Pali word in question: “tathāgata”.
As I said, I appreciate you trying to help. But we need to make sure the information is RELEVANT.
– Otherwise the discussion board will have too much clutter.
– We don’t want people to spend time reading material that is not relevant to the subject.I am closing this topic. I think the meaning of the word “tathāgata” is clear.
y not said: ” I did not read the Pali version myself.”
If the word “tathāgata” is not there in the sutta, there was no need to provide a link. That was the word being discussed.
I still do not see the word “tathāgata” there.
That last verse by Ven. Ananda says: “Tumhe loke sukatā.”, which is translated as, “well gone in the world”
– That is not too bad, but it would have been better to translate that as, “became free of suffering in the world” or something like that.Anyway, those are good suttas to read. They describe what are dhamma (moral) and what are adhamma (immoral).
Thanks, y not. But I see a list of suttas, not a sutta.
In any case, the sutta reference that I gave gives the meaning of the word “tathāgata”. No need to analyze it again. People have funny ways of interpreting Pali words: “Thus Gone One”?
Hello Aniduan,
Yes. Aggañña Sutta does not discuss “Cakkavāla” and “antakkappa” (“world systems” and “the four phases of a kappa”).
As I mentioned in that post, some information come from other suttas. There is no single sutta that covers all that material.
Aggañña Sutta mainly discusses the “reverse evolution process” starting with humans with fine bodies who “descended” from brahma realms.
– Basically, by the time their lifetime in those higher realms are exhausted, they gradually come down to lower realms, as their “hidden gati” (“anusaya”) come back.
– With time, humans also “descend” to lower realms (such as animal realm), when the Earth also changes and vegetation suitable for animal life appear gradually. It takes multi-millions of years.
– It is interesting to note that scientists have now traced back the appearance of bacteria to about 4 billion years ago (the age of Earth is estimated to be about 4.5 billion years).P.S. After bacteria came vegetation and small animals to be followed by more complex animals. So, that phase of the evolution of animals is similar to what is proposed by Darwin.
– The main difference is that humans first appeared with fine bodies (without sex organs); their bodies got more “dense” with time; sex organs appeared next, etc.
– Of course, the initial births of humans were “opapatika” (without coming out of a womb).
– The complex part is that “reverse progression” of humans.I cannot find that sutta. If you can provide a link to the Pāli sutta, I can take a look at it. The way to provide a link is explained here:
How to Reply to a Forum Question
– Please provide a link to the Pali sutta always.In any case, I have seen translations of the word tathāgata as “Thus Gone One”.
But the meaning of the word tathāgata is explained in the “Loka Sutta (Iti 112)“.I have made a few “improvements” to the English translation there:
“Bhikkhus, the world has been fully understood by the Tathāgata; the Tathāgata is released from the world. The origin of the world (with suffering) has been fully understood by the Tathāgata; the causes for the origin of the world have been understood and by the Tathāgata. The cessation of the world has been fully understood by the Tathāgata; the cessation of the world has been realized by the Tathāgata. The path leading to the cessation of the world has been fully understood by the Tathāgata; the path leading to the cessation of the world has been followed by the Tathāgata.
“Bhikkhus, in the world with its devas, māras, and brahmās, with its recluses and brahmins, among humankind with its princes and people, whatever is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought, and reflected upon by the mind—that is fully understood by the Tathāgata: therefore he is called the Tathāgata.
“Bhikkhus, from the night when the Tathāgata awakened to unsurpassed full enlightenment until the night when he passes away into the Nibbāna-element with no residue left, whatever he speaks and explains—all that is correct and not otherwise: therefore he is called the Tathāgata.
“As the Tathāgata says, so he does; as the Tathāgata does, so he says: therefore he is called the Tathāgata.
“In the world with its devas, māras, and brahmās, with its recluses and brahmins, among humankind with its princes and people, the Tathāgata is the conqueror, unvanquished, all-seer, wielding power: therefore he is called the Tathāgata.”
By knowledge of the whole world,
The whole world as it truly is,
He is released from all the world,
From all the world he is unattached.The all-conquering heroic sage,
Freed from every bond is he;
He has reached that perfect peace,
Nibbāna which is free from fear.Rid of taints, he is enlightened,
Trouble-free, with doubts destroyed,
Reached the final end of deeds,
Released by clinging’s full destruction.The Enlightened One, the Lord,
The best is he, unsurpassed;
For in the world together with its devas
He set the Dhamma-wheel in motion.Thus those devas and human beings,
Gone for refuge to the Buddha,
On meeting him pay homage to him,
Upon being released from suffering.Tamed, of the tamed he is the best;
Calmed, of the calmed he is the seer;
Freed, of the freed he is the foremost;
Crossed, of the crossed he is the chief.Thus do they pay him due homage,
The greatest freed from suffering:
In the world together with its devas
There is no equal.I don’t think that statement is correct.
It is true that those who CAN remember past lives are basically children under the age of 12 years or so.
– As a child grows, memories of the past life fade away.In many of those accounts, they died when they were not necessarily children, but at older ages too; “Evidence for Rebirth“.
P.S. However, it is true that it is rare that the person died at old age in the previous life (most cases are of dying young or at middle age). This is also something to do with the memory getting weak at old age. So, the gandhabba that comes out may not have a good memory.
Tobias wrote: “But 10 billion years for the destruction phase is much. Do I missunderstand something?”
I do not want to speculate on those things. But that time starts when the Sun (or another star in the 10,000 systems) starts getting hot. If you Google you can see that it is a gradual process. Of course, the last phase of the actual supernova is very short.
Here we are talking in terms of what is currently known to science. That picture keeps changing.
On the other point, you are right. It should be 1200 billion years or 1.2 trillion years. I just corrected it. Thanks!
upekkha100 seems serious about getting rid of kama raga. That is a noble goal.
I am highlighting some of the key statements from the above posts and providing some suggestions:“So the following is for those in that third camp who want to put Samma Vayama into practise in regards to reducing kama raga through will power(viriya)”.
That is a good resolve. However, it could be better if it is used with two other components.
– In order to get rid of a habit, it would help if one can see the bad consequences. For example, smoking can cause lung cancer.
– In order to see the bad consequences of kama raga, one should see the bad consequences of them. That is why I suggested the following section earlier:
Assāda, Ādīnava, Nissarana
– When one starts contemplating on those concepts, one will start seeing that what we normally consider to be “pleasures” have hidden dangers. Just like a fish cannot see the dangers in biting a tasty looking bait, normally humans cannot see the dangers in sense pleasures.“I am content with bland food, just for sake of eating/sustenance and staying alive. I went from “live to eat” to “eat to live.”
That is a good sign. You may be starting to comprehend some of these aspects. In my case, my habit of having a alcoholic beverage at the end of the gradually went away, without me really “enforcing it”. But “enforcement” can and should be used to some extent too.
“Compared to the other sense pleasures, I can quite easily quit body pleasures and nose pleasures, cold turkey if need be. And now, I think I can do this for food as well, without missing it so much. But I can’t say the same for beautiful sights. And especially not for music”.
That is good too. Now you have narrowed down your weaknesses to just two.
“So for someone in my situation/with my cravings, what time-limit do you think I should set for music listening(5, 10, 20 minutes)?”
Yes. I think that is good plan.
So, basically if you carry out your plan with a firm determination, together with learning Dhamma, you will be able to succeed.
In the Sabbāsava Sutta, the Buddha listed seven steps to remove the āsavas or cravings:
- Removal by clear vision of the nature of this world. The more one understands Tilakkhana (especially one’s inability to maintain things to one’s satisfaction), less of “sheer effort” (or will power) is needed to overcome kama raga.
- Removal by the restrained use of the senses: not to over-indulge in the senses).
- Removal by good and frequent associations: for example, with good friends and good deeds. Here, good friends are not those who do “partying” and having a good time. They are those who live a simple, moral life, and pursue Dhamma.
- Removal by tolerance and patience. For example, even if one is tempted to steal because one is hungry, one should contemplate the consequences and bear the hunger.
- Removal by staying clear of “bad influences and environments”. One needs to avoid bad friends, bad locations for living (due to floods, bad neighbors, etc), avoiding unsuitable times to go out, etc.
- Removal by getting rid of certain things to lessen the burden on the mind. One needs to get rid of bad thoughts that come to mind, for example, for excessive sense pleasure, hate, etc. Focusing too much on making money or “collecting stuff” is actually a burden on the mind, since one has to worry about their safety.
- Removal by meditation and contemplation. When one understands the above points, it becomes apparent what to contemplate on.
Regarding the #1 above, I would also suggest looking into whether any of the 10 types of miccha ditthi are left.
Micchā Ditthi, Gandhabba, and Sōtapanna StageI just updated that post, “What is a Thought?” .
What Dr.J Chakma said above is correct. I just made it a bit more clear (hopefully!).
Thanks for pointing it out, Tobias. This is a bit complex issue. Please let me know if it can be made more clear.
Also, try to quote the post in question, if possible:
How to Reply to a Forum QuestionDr. J Chakma wrote: “Out of 4 antakkappas a living being spend 3 anatakkappas (i.e. 75% time of a mahakappa) in Brahma realm (Abhassara) and enjoy jhanic pleasure. However, Buddha told this sansara is full of suffering (dukha and dukkha). So, a being even if it spent rest of the mahakappa in apayas, the being still spends 75% of time in Good realm (abhassara realm). So, theoretically a being enjoys more than it suffers.”
That is correct.
But as you said after that, the suffering, while it lasts, is unbearable.To get a perspective consider the following scenario: If one is given the opportunity to enjoy all the comforts in the world for 9 months on the condition that one would then be subjected to various forms of torture (burned alive, cut into pieces only to reassembled instantaneously and to go through the whole process again, etc) incessantly for the next 3 months, would that be acceptable?
I don’t think one would even agree to one day of such suffering even for 9 months of luxurious living.
P.S. I just wanted to mention a book that I read recently, which gives a good idea of what it is like in the hell (similar to the descriptions of some suttas): “A Guided Tour of Hell – A Graphic Memoir” by Samuel Bercholz (2016). He first describes an “out-of-body experience” that is similar to many given by others (seeing his body from above), but the second experience is a “trip to the hell”.
