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The Sotapanna phala MOMENT cannot be “experienced” in real-time. It comes and goes within a split second.
– What happens is that one slowly becomes aware of significant changes in one’s gati and general state of the mind over weeks and months.In Buddha Dhamma, a kalyana mittā does not have to be a “friend” that one regularly associates with.
– In my case, for example, my kalyana mittā was Waharaka Thero. But I did not even get a chance to meet him. He passed away in 2017.
– He became my kalyana mittā soon after I found his discourses on the internet.
– A kalyana mittā is someone who can help you make progress on the Path. Of course, one can have many kalyana mittā. In general, bhikkhus and laypeople (with magga phala) can be kalyana mittā to anyone.Hello Sotapanna anugami,
First, I am impressed that you have turned your mind to these issues at the tender age of fifteen.
– That is not an accident. It is possible that you have been fulfilling “paramita” in your past lives.So, even though no one can be certain, it is quite likely that you have a tihetuka birth.
– That was one of the questions you asked.From what you have written, you seem to have the necessary background to learn Buddha Dhamma.
But I just wanted to make sure that you understand the following.
– Just engaging in sense pleasures (especially eating good food or avoiding physical hardships) is not a hindrance to progress. In fact, one needs to be healthy to cultivate the path.
– The problem is CRAVING sensory pleasures. One with such cravings constantly thinks about MORE sense pleasures.But the way to get rid of that craving is NOT through pure willpower, i.e., abstaining from good food, etc. to the extent that one becomes depressed or in some cases even becoming frail and sick.
– Such cravings will naturally disappear as one learns deeper Dhamma.
– In particular, when one really understands Paticca Samuppada one will see extreme greed can lead to bad rebirths like in the peta (preta) or animal realms.Yes. Learning the Sinhala language can be beneficial. However, one should not put that at the top of priorities. In particular, you should finish your studies and get a decent job to make a living. Of course, you can be fully engaged with learning Dhamma while you study.
As for English discourses, I have a set of discourses here: “Tilakkhana – English Discourses”
– There is another, more basic, set in the “Living Dhamma – Fundamentals”
– The “Living Dhamma” section has many posts on Pali.
– Those discourses are now old. I hope to do some more in the future.
– Also, the “Tables and Summaries” section has a glossary.May the Blessings of the Triple Gem be with you in your efforts!
There is an important point that we need to take from the above discussion.
“Seeing”, “hearing”, etc happen in the MIND when the corresponding pasada rupa makes contact with the hadaya vatthu (seat of the mind).
– Those things DO NOT happen at the eyes, ears, etc. OR in the brain.
Therefore, six types of vipāka viññāna arise via “Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjāti cakkhuviññāṇaṃ, sōtañca paṭicca sadde ca uppajjāti sotaviññāṇaṃ,…” in the mind.
The physical body (with eyes, ears,…and the brain) arises because of our craving for sensual pleasures (i.e., to eat tasty food, smell the nice aroma, and to touch/have sex).
– But those come with causes for suffering (injuries, diseases, etc.)People who see these problems with sensual pleasures cultivate jhana and start valuing such jhanic pleasures. Those are the ones that are reborn as Brahmas.
– However, the suffering does not end. Those Brahmas also have finite lifetimes.
– When they die they come back to the kama loka and start over.
– Then, of course, rebirth in the apayas is hard to avoid.Thus, to attain Nibbana one MUST see the drawbacks of all those births.
– There is no existence in ANY of the 31 realms where DEATH is absent.
– Any “jati” (birth) has suffering built-in.December 23, 2020 See the relevant post published yesterday: “How Do We See? – Role of the Gandhabba“
There are many things people do not understand.
– I am not sure how much of the following can be understood by each person. But this a good “teachable moment.”Does anyone know how we HEAR a sound with ears?
1. Think about what happens when you hear someone say your name from a few feet away.
– When that person speaks, a “sound wave” propagates through the air. It is similar to a “wave” that you see when a stone is dropped in a lake, propagating out.
– As that wave propagates, the wave dies down and beyond a certain distance, that sound cannot be heard.
– When that “pressure wave” reaches your ears, your eardrums vibrate and those vibrations are picked up by nerves and transmitted to the brain. The brain processes that “information” and passes it over to the sota pasada rupa.2. Now, we can record that speech and re-broadcast even over long distances. That is how we hear radio stations broadcasting from miles away.
– That “sound wave” was n NOT propagated through the air. It propagates as an electromagnetic wave. It could be even sent over space where there is no air (broadcasts from the Moon).3. In both those cases, what really matters is how our BRAINS process those sound waves received by the ears, and then the hadaya vatthu (seat of the mind) HEARS IT with the help of the sota pasada rupa.
– That is where the MAGIC takes place! How does the brain convert the vibrations of the eardrum (caused by a pressure wave) to a signal that can be HEARD by the MIND?
– That is a 100% kammic phenomenon (meaning it is totally under Nature’s control). We have NO IDEA what happens there. We just KNOW that it happens. The Buddha DID NOT explain that MECHANISM!4. The “sensing of the sound” happens AT THE hadaya vatthu (with the help of the sota pasada rupa).
– The original sound can get from point A to point B as a pressure wave (in the air in ordinary situations), as an electromagnetic wave (even through empty space in the case of a broadcast).
– A mechanism somewhat related to the latter case may be in effect for “direct communication” between two Brahmas (or from a Brahma to the Buddha or someone with iddhi powers).This is really a fascinating subject. In particular, think about how we “see”. There is no “light” in the brain or anywhere else inside the body. Yet, we PERCEIVE light and SEE a tree, house, person, etc.
– That “magic” happens at the hadaya vatthu, in this case with the help of the cakkhu pasada rupa.However, I don’t what to spend too much time on this subject.
– I just wanted to convey that there are many things in the world that we DO NOT fully understand.
– As the Buddha said, it is enough to understand how future suffering arises.
– On the other hand, it is reasonable to spend some time to illustrate the soundness of Buddha Dhamma. When we combine what he had taught with modern science, we can get a much better idea about our world than even scientists specialized in their fields.
– That is why I write posts like “Brain – Interface between Mind and Body”
– My hope is that it will help cultivate real sadda (faith) in Buddha Dhamma.
– But such details are not necessary to comprehend the Noble Truths. Still, they may be helpful for some people.y not asked: “Communicate, yes, but is it not only one-way? ”
What does that mean?
Speaking with a mouth and hearing with an ear is not possible, for example, for rupavacara Brahmas.
In the same way, for them, seeing does not require physical eyes.
– It is a totally different mechanism.TripleGemStudent wrote:
“For rupa Brahma’s since they are missing the faculties of “touch” and “taste”. Without taste, that means they don’t have a mouth. How do they communicate with Lord Buddha?”Yes. The answers by y not and Sharma27 are close.
The succinct way to say that is the following.
It is the sota pasada rupa that makes it possible to communicate with others.
– Rupavcara Brahmas (as well as human gandhabbas) communicate directly (without words) via that sota pasada rupa.
– It is only when the gandhabba is trapped in a physical body that mouths and ears (and air vibrations for sound propagation) are needed to communicate.
– Arupavacara Brahmas (and those in the asanna realm) do not have the sota pasada rupa. That is why they cannot communicate with others.I have discussed some of this in the section, “Origin of Life“. See, for example, “Mystical Phenomena in Buddhism?“.
– Also, see, “Brain and the Gandhabba“Sharma27 wrote: “The country I am from has a lot of thriving and vibrant spiritual processes. Even though the final end of suffering cannot be obtained by most of those processes, it is well worth(my) time to know the Dhammic analysis of those processes…”
Yes. But those curiosities cannot be satisfied by reading accounts of other yogis. That is an endless process.
My suggestion is to read the sections, “Origin of Life” and “Buddha Dhamma – A Scientific Approach”
I think this discussion has gone far enough.
Thanks, Triplegemstudent! But the correct reference is not that.
Seng Kiat sent me the following comment.
Here is the sutta on the householder Ugga of Vesālī:
“Manāpadāyī Sutta (AN 5.44)”
English translation at Sutta CentralBelow are the verses concerning the householder Ugga after he passed away:
11.1 Then after some time Ugga passed away,
Atha kho uggo gahapati vesāliko aparena samayena kālamakāsi.11.2 and was reborn in a host of mind-made gods.
Kālaṅkato ca uggo gahapati vesāliko aññataraṃ manomayaṃ kāyaṃ upapajji.11.3 At that time the Buddha was staying near Sāvatthī in Jeta’s Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika’s monastery.
Tena kho pana samayena bhagavā sāvatthiyaṃ viharati jetavane anāthapiṇḍikassa ārāme.11.4 Then, late at night, the glorious god Ugga, lighting up the entire Jeta’s Grove, went up to the Buddha, bowed, and stood to one side. The Buddha said to him,
Atha kho uggo devaputto abhikkantāya rattiyā abhikkantavaṇṇo kevalakappaṃ jetavanaṃ obhāsetvā yena bhagavā tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā bhagavantaṃ abhivādetvā ekamantaṃ aṭṭhāsi. Ekamantaṃ ṭhitaṃ kho uggaṃ devaputtaṃ bhagavā etadavoca:11.5 “Ugga, I trust it is all you wished?”
“kacci te, ugga, yathādhippāyo”ti?11.6 “Sir, it is indeed just as I wished.”
“Taggha me, bhagavā, yathādhippāyo”ti.Thanks and much merits to Seng Kiat!
I have highlighted the relevant verse regarding Ugga’s rebirth: “aññataraṃ manomayaṃ kāyaṃ upapajji”
– That means “born with a certain manomaya kāya.”
– That usually refers to a rupavacara Brahma. Even though an arupavacara Brahma also has only a manomayaṃ kāya, he would not be able to communicate with others (in this case, the Buddha).Therefore, all we can say is that Ugga was reborn in a rupavacara Brahma realm. The sutta does not say anything about that Brahma‘s magga phala.
The word “dhamma” may have different meanings depending on the context.
1. In Buddha Dhamma it refers to “teachings”.
2. The verse that you refer to “eva me tassa dhammanan samudhayo hoti” in Kusala-Mula P.S. refers to “an understanding of Buddha Dhamma”. Specifically, it refers to understanding the Noble Truths.
– That verse is the last step in Kusala-Mula P.S.
– That becomes clear when you look at the corresponding last verse in the Akusala-Mula P.S.: “Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa samudayō hōti “3. However, in most cases, “dhamma” refers to “anidassana appatigha rupa” that makes contact with the hadaya vatthu (seat of the mind) and generates mano vinnana.
That happens via, “manañca paṭicca dhamme ca uppajjāti manoviññāṇaṃ.”
– These dhamma are the ones that bring kamma vipaka at times and also bring past memories to the mind.“In this chapter it says that Venerable Ugga obtained Arhatship in the pure abodes..”
First, we need to verify that.
– Please find and post the relevant sutta which states that.Here are more resources for learning Pali:
“Concise Pali-English Dictionary by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera”
– A few words have wrong meanings!Another good resource is the book, “Pali – Buddha’s Language” by Kurt Schmidt.
– In particular, Appendix B on “Grammar Basics” provides a guide to declension, how the same word is modified to indicate tense, gender, etc.Yes. This is at the heart of the issue of what is involved in becoming a Sotapanna.
“Does this mean that you do not need to meditate to become a Sothapanna?”
“Meditation” could mean two things.
– One is to contemplate on the “previously unheard Buddha Dhamma that one heard from an Ariya.” This is to dispel one’s wrong views that worldly things can bring happiness. Note that this wrong view is what is left AFTER one has removed the “ten types of wrong views“. One gets to the mundane Samma Ditthi by removing the ten types of wrong views. One gets to Lokottara Samma Ditthi by starting to see the dangers of sense pleasures (seeing anicca, dukkha, anatta). This is the field of vision (දර්ශන භූමිය)
– The other (and more formal meaning) is the effort that needs to be made to get rid of the WRONG PERCEPTIONS about sense pleasures. A Sotapanna, who has irradicated Sakkayaditthi, Vicikicca and Silabbataparamasa in the step above, still craves sense pleasures due to “viparita sanna” or wrong perceptions. To get rid of that, a Sotapanna needs to contemplate the bad consequences (adinava) of sense pleasures. This is what you referred to as the field of meditation (භාවනා භූමිය). That is how a Sotapanna gets to the Sakadagami and Anagami stages. The tendency to prioritize “sense pleasures” goes away only at the Anagami stage, i.e., kama raga anusaya is reduced at the Sotapanna, and Sakadagami stages, but goes away only at the Anagami stage.Now, let us go through this step-by-step.
One becomes a Sotapanna Anugami when he/she starts comprehending the “previously unheard Buddha Dhamma” that sense pleasures have dangerous consequences. The key point here is that until one comprehends the fruitlessness AND dangers in not KNOWING the following: Even though an average human thinks that sense pleasures cannot bring harm as long as one leads a moral life, that assumption is wrong.
– This grasping involves a change in the paradigm of one’s world view.
– This is why the Buddha said his Buddha Dhamma has never been known to the world in the absence of a Buddha Sasana.Once one starts comprehending that key point, one is a Sotapanna Anugami, i.e., he/she is one the way (magga) to become a Sotapanna.
– When he/she starts contemplating on this “new vision” of the reality of the wider world of 31 realms with rebirths taking place incessantly (without stop), one will start seeing more and more evidence that it is the correct world view.
– There comes a moment when that conviction becomes irreversible. At that moment, the path to the Sotapanna stage is complete and a magga citta followed by two phala citta flow in one’s mind, and one becomes a Sotapanna.In other words, a Sotapanna Anugami has conjectural knowledge (අනුමාන ඥානය). He/she has at least a vague idea that this “previously unheard Dhamma” is correct.
A Sotapanna has perceptual knowledge (ප්රත්යක්ෂ ඥානය or paccavekkha ñāṇa). He/she KNOWS how birth in any realm arises via the cultivation of a certain set of sankhara. That means he/she understands how the Paticca Samuppada process starting with “avijja paccaya sankhara” leads to a certain existence (bhava) and thus to births (jati) within that bhava. ALL SUCH BIRTHS end up with “jara, marana, soka,…” or the “whole mass of suffering”.
– Until that moment, Sotapanna Anugami has conjectural knowledge (අනුමාන ඥානය).
– However, the Buddha stated that a Sotapanna Anugami WILL become a Sotapanna without exceptions. He/she WILL NOT separate from the Ariya birth. That is what is meant by the Tipitaka statements that say “a Sotapanna Anugami WILL NOT die without becoming a Sotapanna.” That refers to “death from the Ariya birth.”If there are questions, please quote from above (regarding what is not clear) when asking questions. That way, I will know exactly what is not clear.
P.S. Of course, there are more details. If you (or anyone else) understand the above but need further clarification regarding a certain point, please feel free to ask too.
“Is it possible that when magga citta occur, one gets into the path and become sotapatti magga puggala.”
No. That is what I explained above.
Magga citta is different from getting into magga (path). Getting into the path DOES NOT require a magga citta.Magga and phala citta happen within a split second. That is discussed in Abhidhamma.
– See the explanation of citta vithi in “Citta Vīthi – Processing of Sense Inputs”“Citta Vīthi for Attainment of Magga Phala” is discussed at the end of that post.
P.S. The transition from a pothujjana (average human) to a Sotapanna Anugami USUALLY happens GRADUALLY over days/weeks/months. During the time of the Buddha, of course, many got there within a discourse.
– It MAY take some time for an average person to understand the Noble Truth of Suffering, Paticca Samuppada, Tialkkhana, etc. All those are inter-related.
– When one starts understanding them, one realizes the unfruitfulness AND dangers in staying in the rebirth process.Hello Exist,
There are two possible issues that come into play and that may be why you are asking that question.
1. When one first starts comprehending Buddha Dhamma at a deeper level, one becomes a Sotapanna Anugami. That means one gets into the path (magga).
– But it may take many days or even many years for a Sotapanna Anugami to cultivate that path and to become a Sotapanna.2. There is another event that happens at the moment a Sotapanna Anugami becomes a Sotapanna. At the moment, a citta vithi (series of citta) flows and there are three cittas that arise towards the end of that citta vithi. One is the magga citta. That citta is followed by two phala cittas and that is the exact moment that one becomes a Sotapanna.
– This magga citta is different from following the path (magga) as a Sotapanna Anugami in #1 above.So, it could take even years for a Sotapanna Anugami to get to the Sotapanna phala moment (i.e., to become a Sotapanna).
– But there is essentially no time gap between a magga citta and phala citta.Please feel free to ask questions if the above explanation is not clear.
It is important to focus on the main issues. Since you seem to be familiar with the fundamentals, I will briefly go through the main points.
1. The “suffering” that the Buddha wanted to remove is the suffering in future lives. The root causes for that suffering is described by the Paticca Samuppada (PS) process.
2. Any future birth (jati) results from bhava (existence) grasped by upadana (the tendency to attach to vedana).
3. ALL such future births (even in the highest Deva/Brahma realms) end up with varying degrees of suffering. Death is one part of that which can NEVER be avoided in ANY birth.Now we can see the origin of that suffering by looking at the beginning of the PS process.
4. Seeds for new bhava/jati are created by one’s mind with vinnana. There are two types of vinnana. Cakkhu vinnana, sota vinnana, etc DO NOT generate such kamma bija or seeds. It is the vinnana arising via the “sankhara paccaya vinnana” step in the PS process that creates kamma bija in javana citta. We can call this “kamma vinnana“.
5. Sankhara are our DEFILED thoughts. All three types (mano, vaci, and kaya sankhara) can lead to kamma vinnana. Our speech and actions are also based on our thoughts, and ALL are sankhara. Those that lead to future bhava and jati are strong sankhara or abhisankhara.
6. Why do generate such sankhara? We do that while we engage in “seeking pleasures” from worldly things (rupa, sadda, gandha, rasa, phottabba). But how can that lead to suffering? This is the key point that most people are unable to grasp.
– First, while we are seeking such sensory pleasures, we may engage in immoral deeds (some people think they can avoid them, but it is only a matter of time until one encounters an irresistible arammana). This is why we often hear about “good, moral people) getting caught in taking bribes, raping, or some other sexual misconduct.
– Second, as long as one has craving for “pleasures” available in kama, rupa, and arupa loka, one WILL be born in one of those. If one has craving for food (or other sense pleasures), it is not possible to avoid births in the kama loka. If one likes to enjoy rupavacara jhana, it is NOT possible to avoid birts in one of the 16 realms in rupa loka. Same for arupavacara jhana.7. That is what we discussed in #1. As long as there is a birth (jati) in this world, there WILL BE suffering. The PS process starts with avijja and ends in “soka, parideva, dukkha, domanassa, etc. WITHOUT exception. Even if one is born in the highest Brahma realm, that life will end at some point (i.e., invariably encounter death). Furthermore, one can then be born in any lower realm including the apayas.
– Not understanding THAT is avijja.
– That is why the PS process starts with “avijja paccaya sankhara.” One generates (abhi)sankhara and engage in “pleasure-seeking” (regardless of whether they involve sensual pleasures or jhanic pleasures) because one has NOT understood that process.We can discuss the details if you or anyone else has questions. But that is the basic framework.
