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Firewns questions:
1. For this question and for some of the following questions, we need to remember that PS does not always proceed linearly.
– You are quite right. Upadana involves vaci sankhara and kaya sankhara as well. This is explained in, “Difference Between Tanhā and Upādāna”2. It is best to think of vinnana as the mindset. With that mindset, one creates energies for future existence (bhava).
– That bhava could be temporary in this life. For example, if one drinks too much, one can make an “animal bhava” and be born in it in this life itself.
– If that person keeps engaging in that activity regularly, that bhava energy (kammic energy) can become strong and could lead to rebirth as an animal.3. Namarupa are distinct from jati.
– Namarupa arise in the mind. An alcoholic can visualize alcohol bottles, party scenes, getting drunk with friends, etc. All those are namarupa.
– Jati is being born in a certain state, as in #2 above.4. In the uppati PS, namarupa is the merging of the gandhabba with the zygote to create the “seed” for the new human with a physical body.
– After the baby grows and starts getting attached to “things in this world” the indriya will become ayatana.
– Hadaya vatthu is created at the “bhava paccaya jati” step in the uppati PS.
– Change of indriya to ayatana happens when one gets attached to something. An Arahant has indriya that NEVER become ayatana.5. In the realm of Brahmas with no consciousness (asanna realm), they have hadaya vatthu, but kammic energy prevents any arammana coming to the mind.
– Without arammana coming in, no citta can arise.
– Kammic energy maintains a fine rupa until the end of that kammic energy. It is as if one is absent from the world during all that time.Yes. I thought it would be refreshing to present it in a different way.
“Is this one way to distinguish life and inert matter? i.e. rupa created solely from kammic energy is life, and the rest is the inert matter?”
EVERYTHING has its origins in kammic energy (via Paticca Samuppada).
– However, it is not necessary to focus on that right now.
– The critical point is that ONLY kammic energy can create those six units of hadaya vatthu and five pasada rupa.“These 6 entities, plus whatever else created by kammic energy only, is life.
The rest is inert matter.”Yes. That is correct.
– In addition to those six entities, iithi bhava, purisa bhava rupa and jivitindriya rupa (#14, #15, #17 in the following Table) are created ONLY by kammic energy.
“Rupa (Material Form) – Table”Thank you, Zapper.
– Yes. I needed to update the lifetimes in the post, “Pathama Metta Sutta”1. I have corrected the lifetimes there per that sutta.
2. Now, it appears that the lifetimes quoted in that sutta for the Abhassara and Subhkinha realms (2 and 4 kappa) are different from those in the post, “31 Realms of Existence” (8 and 64 kappa)
3. In several other references, he lifetimes match those in the post, “31 Realms of Existence”
– One reference is, Section 6.2. Āyuppamāṇa in the vibhaṅga:
“Dhammahadaya vibhaṅga”4. I think the resolution is the following.
The Pathama Metta Sutta (AN 4.125) discusses the rebirths in Brahma realms that result from cultivation of the first, second, third, and fourth jhana.
– But each jhana corresponds to several Brahma realms, depending on the “strength” of the jhana.
– In particular, the second and third jhanas correspond to three realms each (based on the strength of the jhana being low, medium, and high).
– Other references give lifetimes for EACH of those realms. But the Pathama Metta Sutta (AN 4.125) gives just one lifetime.5 You can see the division of each jhana to several realms in, “The Thirty-one Planes of Existence”
By the way, the lifetimes that you quoted are the old ones that appeared in my posts BEFORE revisions.
On August 21, 2020, at 6:00 pm, Grenier posted:
Bonjour Lal,
I checked the updated by Seng Kiat Ng , and for my references :
*”What Reincarnates?” it is on page 831
*”Only Gati…” on page 833
I will read again Bhikkhu Bodhi and A sketch of the Buddha’s life, by Thanissaro.
Merci, GrenierOn August 21, 2020, at 3:18 pm, Lal posted:
Hello Grenier. The following numbers refer to your post above.
1. I am not sure which version of the eBook that you referred to. It could be an old version.
– The eBook, “Pure Dhamma: A quest to recover Buddha’s true teachings” is updated each week by Seng Kiat Ng. You can get the newest version at,
“Pure Dhamma Essays in Book Format”Can you check and see whether that statement is there in the post at the website:
“What Reincarnates? – Concept of a Lifestream”
– Please check the post and let me know if you find that statement there.In the future, please check the post on the website and refer to the bullet # there.
2. It does not really matter which dictionary you refer to. If that meaning is not compatible with the Tipitaka, it needs to be rejected.
– However, that decision is up to each individual. I have given my reasons for rejecting that translation of the word “gati.”3. The “teachers” that you refer to (Purana Kassapa, Makkhali Gosala, Ajita Kesakambala, Pakudha Kaccayana, and Sanjaya Belatthaputta) were contemporaries of the Buddha.
– They had teachings that were OPPOSED TO the teachings of the Buddha.
– The Buddha had shown their teachings to be wrong and by the time of Buddha’s Parinibbana (death), most of those wrong teachings had been discarded by society.This is why I asked you at the beginning what kind of exposure you have had to Buddha Dhamma.
– So, your confusion in some of these cases seems to be reasonable. But you do need to read/listen to some background material.
– Again, I recommend finishing the lecture set by Bhikkhu Bodhi.
– Following is another reference that may be useful:
“A Sketch of the Buddha’s Life“On August 21, 2020, at 2:42 pm, Grenier posted:
Bonjour Lal,
I want to give you answers about what you ask in your post #31911.
1) ”Did I make the statement: ”Only gati are carried…”I took that in your book, ”Pure Dhamma : A quest to recover Buddha’s true teachings”, page 814, the title of item 8
and it is the same for the Concept of a ”Life-stream”, page 812, the title of item 2.
2) About Pali Dictionaries, I refer to ”The Pali Text Society’s Palio-English dictionary and his first compiler, Robert Caesar Childers, updated in February 2007, and it gives a list of Pali books consulted for that Vocabulary (Canonical and post-Canonical). And for the Concise Pali-English Dictionary, it is by the Venerable Ambalangoda Polwatte Buddhadatta Mahanayake Thera.
3) The prominent contemplative schools that I refer to, are mentioned in DN 2 …like the doctrines of Purana Kassapa, Makkhali Gosala, Ajita Kesakambala, Pakudha Kaccayana and Sanjaya Belatthaputta.
And in Sutta MN 102, Warring Schools where we find ”Speculations about the Future and about the Past, the Nibbana here and now, etc.
I do my best to not get hung up in words, that is why I ask you to give me the Suttas to which you refer in your affirmations. Merci, GrenierOn August 21, 2020, at 9:29 am, Lal posted:
Grenier:
1. Did I make the statement “Only Gati are carried to the next existence” or not?
– If I did, I need to make the correction. PLEASE respond to my questions.2. You do not seem to understand a key point that I am trying to make. Many people DO NOT understand some key concepts of Buddha Dhamma.
– The Pali-English dictionary that you refer to. Was it not written by someone?
– See, “Pāli Dictionaries – Are They Reliable?”
– Why do you think something MUST BE true if it is in a dictionary?3. You wrote: “And I want to bring another controversial issue. In ”The great craving-destruction discourse – Maha Tanhasankhaya Sutta (MN 38) Buddha’s explanations of rebirth present a position different from other schools..”
– What “other schools” are you referring to?
– What other schools CAN BE there?
– If it is Buddha Dhamma, would not the teachings HAVE TO BE attributed to the Buddha?
– This is related to #2 above. People keep making up their own versions of Buddha Dhamma. Such WRONG INTERPRETATIONS appear in sutta translations, dictionaries, textbooks on Buddhism, etc.4. You asked: “So, I ask you, in which sutta the Buddha spoke about what is in the ”Lifestream”?”
The word “lifestream” is my usage in the English language. The Buddha did not use English.
– The Buddha talked about a “living being” going through the rebirth process, a satta.
– Don’t get hung up in words. Try to understand what happens in the rebirth process.On August 21, 2020, at 9:07 am, Grenier posted:
Bonjour Lal,
I have an other question about ”gati”. ”tassa kã gati ko abhisamparayo? what is his rebirth and what his destiny? MM.i.388).The definition of ”gati” in the new concise pali english dictionary :”where one goes agter death; a futur course; a state of existence.” I found nowhere a reference to ”character” or ”habit”!. ”Gati” like in your citation in ”Patisandhi Citta – How the next life is determined according to gati” …”but there let us look at how one’s gati lead to corresponding rebirths in different realms”.
And I want to bring an other controversial issue. In ”The great craving-destruction discourse – Maha Tanhasankhaya Sutta (MN 38) Buddha’s explanations of rebirth present a position different from other schools on both sides of the issues in that he avoided the question of wheter or not there’s a ”what” that gets reborn, or if there is a ”what”, what is (SN 12:12 ; SN 12:35). He also discouraged such speculations as, ”If I take rebirth, what was I in the past, and what will I be in the future?” (MN 2). So, I ask you, in which sutta the Buddha spoke about whay is in the ”Lifestream”? Merci, GrenierOn August 21, 2020, at 7:09 am, Lal posted:
If I wrote, ” Only Gati are carried to the next existence” that is NOT correct.
I went through the post and did not see it stated like that.
In #4, I stated, “The only things that are carried over to the new life are those kamma seeds, which contain the “character” or “gati” of that lifestream. ”
– That is correct.
– But I see some places where things need to be stated a bit differently. I will do that once I hear back you about this particular statement.Which bullet # contains “Only Gati are carried to the next existence”?
For everyone: Please make sure to state the bullet # when you refer to a statement in a post.
But you seem to be “catching up quickly”, Grenier. That is great!
On August 21, 2020, at 5:00 am, Grenier posted:
Bojour Lal,
”I am my own kamma, I am a heir to my kamma, I am born in this life from my kamma ” From the Abhinhapaccavekkhitabbathana Sutta , Anguttara Nikāya 5.57 . My question in post #31904, was about what you said in ”What reincarnates? – Concept of a Lifestream” citation : ”Only Gati are carried to the next existence” …And if the kamma is not a part of the Lifestream, by which road does he migrate from lifes to lifes? That why I ask you on which sutta we can find that ”only” gati are carried to the next life. I do not find an answer in your post #31905. Merci , GrenierOn August 20, 2020, at 1:50 pm, Lal posted:
I did a search on Sutta Central for the word “gati” and came with the following references:
The first 12 are not from the Sutta Piṭaka.
– You can see sutta references starting with the 13th entry.However, most translators do not translate “gati” correctly.
Here is a good example, “Gati Sutta (AN 9.68)”
Here is that whole sutta:
“Pañcimā, bhikkhave, gatiyo. Katamā pañca? Nirayo, tiracchānayoni, pettivisayo, manussā, devā—imā kho, bhikkhave, pañca gatiyo.Imāsaṃ kho, bhikkhave, pañcannaṃ gatīnaṃ pahānāya … pe … ime cattāro satipaṭṭhānā bhāvetabbā”ti.
The translation there is:
“Mendicants, there are five destinations. What five? Hell, the animal realm, the ghost realm, humanity, and the gods. These are the five destinations.To give up these five destinations you should develop the four kinds of mindfulness meditation. …”
Therefore, the translator incorrectly translates “gati” as “destination (for rebirth.)”
– The Pali word for rebirth in the sense for the destination is “abhisamparāya“.Of course, rebirth (“abhisamparāya“) is according to one’s gati.
– But the translator here seems to be just guessing the meaning of gati to be the “destination.”In the Maha Parinibbana Sutta (DN 16), there is the following verse: “sāḷho nāma, bhante, bhikkhu nātike kālaṅkato, tassa kā gati, ko abhisamparāyo? Nandā nāma, Bhante, bhikkhunī nātike kālaṅkatā, tassā kā gati, ko abhisamparāyo? ..”
– The same translator of the previous sutta translates this verse as, “Sir, the monk named Sāḷha has passed away in Nādika. Where has he been reborn in his next life? The nun named Nandā, the layman named Sudatta, and the laywoman named Sujātā have passed away in Nādika. Where have they been reborn in the next life?..”
– He does not translate BOTH words “gati” and “abhisamparāya“. May be he thinks they both have the same meaning!The correct translation should be “Sir, the monk named Sāḷha has passed away in Nādika. What gati (led to his rebirth) and where has he been reborn in his next life? etc.”
I have many posts at the site on “gati“. But the following posts could be a good start:
“Key to Ānapānasati – How to Change Habits and Character (Gati)”On August 20, 2020, at 10:26 am, Grenier posted:
Bonjour Lal,
I read carefully the posts you recommand reading and about ”What reincarnates ? – Concept of a Lifestream” on Part VI – Buddha Dhamma and Buddism , I have a question: When you say : ”Only Gati are carried to the next existence” could you inform me about scriptures (suttas) where I can find more details on that subject, please, Merci, GrenierOn August 20, 2020, at 7:47 am, Lal Posted:
There is a subtle point here that needs to be understood.
As long as one does not “get the full picture of the wider world-view of the Buddha” there WILL BE a “person” doing kamma. Such activities are done with a perception of “me”. That perception CANNOT be removed by will power. It HAS TO come through understanding.
For example, a Sotapanna (and even an Anagami to some extent) will have that perception of “me”. That is because their understanding is not yet complete.
– That is why it is a step-by-step process.You asked: “Does my ”spiritual practice” not lead me to the cessation of desire?”
– Yes. It will. But it is a gradual process.
– However, one can experience the “loss of cravings for desires” as one makes progress.
– The first step is, of course, to stay away from breaking the five precepts or engaging in dasa akusala as much as possible.For the time being, it is better to avoid philosophers. We don’t want to get confused about the world-views of philosophers. There are many of them around, some are not too bad (Schopenhauer), but still, that will only “muddy the waters.’
Regarding your other comments, kamma is NOT deterministic. You have control:
“What is Kamma? – Is Everything Determined by Kamma?”I would recommend reading those three posts carefully before asking any more questions.
On August 20, 2020, at 7:26 am Grenier posted:
Bonjour Lal,
Thanks for your explanations I better understand those kinds of desires; but is there an other kind of desire comming from karma ( according to karma, what you have done, you become); it is not so much that we form desires, but that desires form in us…our desires are hardly ”ours”…we only figure them out, if at all, once they are fully formed. I speak about those compulsive behaviors (OCD), a form of overwhelming desire; those uncontrolled obsessions (similar to asavas), in which categories of desires could you place them ? Does my ”spiritual practice” not lead me to the cessation of desire, but merely make me more ”accident-prone”? If my intellect is not equipped to pierce through the veil of ”maya” (illusion) and apprehend the true nature of reality , there is nothing in me that can oppose the demands and dictates of will (the world as will of Arthur Schopenhauer) which drive me unwittingly into a life of inevitable struggle, frustration and pain. So that part comming from past karma (those unconscious desires) are not in my control (like anatta)?The unlighted man could say, it is our ”destiny…desire and destiny are almost the same word. ”Desire” derives from the Latin desiderare, ”to long or wish for” which itself derives from de sidere, ”from the stars”, suggesting that the original sense is ”to await what the stars will bring”. An other type of desire? Merci, Grenier
