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Hello Daniel,
I am not aware of a sutta that directly says a Sakadagami would not be born below the Deva realms. It is possible that there is.
– However, we can easily deduce that because a Sakadagami has lost “vatthu kama” the desire to “own olarika sensory objects.” Thus he/she could only be born with a sukuma rupa, i.e., in Deva realms. Even though kama raga anusaya is much reduced it is not eliminated like for an Anagami.“When a human achieves Sakadagami magga phala, he will be born in Deva realm one his physical body is dead, right? Even if his bhava would still have more kammic energy left (because it is an anantarika kamma) Is that correct?”
– Yes. That is correct.“The second question is about the Buddha’s Sasana and 5000 years. Here, everybody also believes in 5000 years. But when I research a source, I cannot find much clear sources. Some sources say even 500, and so on. You wrote in one article, I think, that it can also be 5000-80000?”
– No. I have never written that the Buddha Sasana can last 5000-80000 years. Please don’t quote me unless you can give the post and bullet # where I make such statements.
– The Gotami Sutta (AN 8.51) has the following verse: “Sace, ānanda, nālabhissa mātugāmo tathāgatappavedite dhammavinaye agārasmā anagāriyaṃ pabbajjaṃ, ciraṭṭhitikaṃ, ānanda, brahmacariyaṃ abhavissa, vassasahassameva saddhammo tiṭṭheyya. Yato ca kho, ānanda, mātugāmo tathāgatappavedite dhammavinaye agārasmā anagāriyaṃ pabbajito, na dāni, ānanda, brahmacariyaṃ ciraṭṭhitikaṃ bhavissati. Pañceva dāni, ānanda, vassasatāni saddhammo ṭhassati.”
Translated: “But, Ānanda, if women had not obtained permission to bear the robes, the Buddha Sasana would have lasted 1,000 years. But now that I have given them permission, the Sasana will last only 500 years.”However, there is at least one sutta that says as long as true Dhamma will not totally disappear and there will be people who will be able to attain Nibbana. I hope someone may remember the name of that sutta and post it.
It is quite clear that the number of Arahants decreased dramatically 500 years after the Parinibbana of the Buddha. The fourth Buddhist Council held in Sri Lanka (when the Tipitaka was written down) was attained by all Arahants. That was about 450 years after the Parinibbana of the Buddha.
– But after that number of Arahants decreased rapidly. But there will always be Arahants as long as the true Dhamma exists.
– I am not sure where the limit of 5000 years comes from. Again, if someone knows, I would like to know that too.P.S. I may have casually mentioned the 5000-year limit (not 50000), but that is only because that number is commonly quoted. In fact, Waharaka Thero had also mentioned that number, as I recall.
Thank you, Lang. You have understood!
Bodily vedana are due to kamma vipaka.
– But “kamma vipaka” do not necessarily mean “vipaka due to kamma done in the past” even though that is a big part.
– Vipaka for actions can materialize right away. For example, if one jumps off a cliff (kamma or action), he is going to be subjected to a lot of physical pain, if not death (kamma vipaka).
– When people feel bodily sensations (mostly due to postures that they are not used to), those are results of “getting into such uncomfortable postures”! It is as simple as that.
– But those instructors keep saying “bear the pain and it will go away”. It will go away due to one of two reasons. The body may get used to it gradually or in the worst case, the pain may go away when nerves are damaged. Either way, it has nothing to do with vedananupassana!As we can see, vedanupassana (and kayanupassana, cittanupassana) can be done in any posture, at any time! But Dhammanupassana is best done in “formal mediation”. However, the other three types of “anupasana” involve Dhammanupassana.
– I hope to provide a detailed discussion in the upcoming posts.Yes. As Lang wrote, in vedananupassana, one needs to be mindful about “samphassa-ja-vedana” via defiled thoughts, as I explained in my first response to the comments by raj.
– There, I gave references to read.
– Those who have not yet understood should read those recommended posts. Please feel free to ask questions, AFTER reading them. People start asking more questions/make comments without reading recommended material. It is a complete waste of time!
– Don’t think Buddha Dhamma can be understood by just reading a post or two.I do understand that we have been put in this position due to wrong teachings over many hundreds of years. So, it is going to be a bit difficult to discard those wrong views/practices. But it MUST be done to make progress.
#1 I think it is time to write a couple of posts on “bhavana.” I will try to do that in the coming weeks.
#2 Yes. Jhana and abhinna powers seem to be connected.
– But that does not mean everyone needs to CULTIVATE jhana. How did Minister Santati or Ven. Culapanthaka attain abhinna powers? Did they cultivate jhanas?
– Of course, one could cultivate ANARIYA jhana to higher levels (above the fourth jhana) and attain abhinna powers. Devadatta did. But he lost all that and was reborn in a niraya!#3. We do know that Angulimala killed almost a thousand people. Did he not attain Arahanthood?
– Unless one has done an anantara papa kamma (killing a parent,an Arahant, etc), even Arahanthood is not ruled out.
– “Account of Angulimāla – Many Insights to Buddha Dhamma”#4 Yes.
#5 The term “cetovimutti” implies vimutti, which normally refers to Nibbana.
– I don’t think the word cetovimutti can be used to describe any person who has attained even the highest jhana and abhinna powers. Obviously, Devadatta had not attained cetovimutti. He had cultivated anariya jhana and also had abhinna powers at one time. He ended up in a niraya.
– Those who attain Ariya jhana and cultivate them all the way to the highest gets to Arahanthood; they are Cetovimutta Arahants. But there are pannavimutta Arahants who had not cultivated jhana and attain Nibbana. Then there are Arahants like Ven. Sariputta, Ven. Culapanthaka, Minister Santati who are both cetovimutta and pannavimutta Arahants.No matter how much I try to explain, it does not seem to convey the message.
P.S.
I think it is time to write a couple of posts on “bhavana.” I will try to do that in the coming weeks. Questions keep coming up because most people think “bhavana” requires one to sit like a statue.– The problem is to use the word “meditation” as the translation of “bhavana”, especially if the word “meditation” implies sitting down and staying like a statue.
raj wrote: “The vipassana technique is explained in depth in the Chachaka sutta MN 148 (six sets of six) where the Buddha tells us to train and be disenchanted to the sensations. By sitting without moving one can experience the sensation of pain dissolve and disappear, once can witness and experience the truth of anicca (all sensations are temporary).”
This is a complete misunderstanding of Chachaka sutta AND vedananupassana in Satipatthana bhavana.
Chachaka sutta MN 148 is about samphassa, samphassa-ja-vedana, and how those lead to attachment to sensory inputs and accumulation of bad kamma.
– Vedananupassana is all about being aware of such “samphassa-ja-vedana” and stopping them from arising.As I have discussed in many posts, samphassa (san + phassa) arises when lobha, dosa, moha arise in a mind.
– For example, upon seeing eye-catching object greed and greed-induced joyful sensation arises and we get attached to it. When seeing an enemy angry thoughts can arise. Both could lead to unwise actions.In Satipatthana bhavana, one needs to be mindful and not attach to such “samphassa-ja-vedana” and act unwisely. That is being mindful.
– It is NOT about bodily feelings!I just did a search for “samphassa” and came up with the following results:
“Search Results for: samphassa”Please read some of those and try to understand the basis of real Bhavana.
I have also discussed the Chachakka Sutta in detail in a series of posts:
“Is There a “Self”?”It would be worthwhile to spend some time reading some posts in the above two links.
Yes. This was an early discourse by Waharaka Thero.
He has said that there is some evidence that the Buddha was born in Sri Lanka. But he said (at 8:30 minutes of the above recording) that it is not the time to bring it up.
– Bringing up this issue leads to unnecessary controversies that will distract from learning/teaching Buddha Dhamma.
– Further archeological studies will establish the truth one way or the other. There is no need for us to have a debate or even express opinions.Therefore, I would like this discussion to end here. Let us focus on learning Buddha Dhamma.
Yes. In Buddha Dhamma, there is no need to do “conventional kasina meditation” in the sense of yogis who keep looking at a fire, chant “fire, fire, ..” and be absorbed in that arammana.
– Some automatically end up with abhinna powers with the Arahanthood. Of course, that does not happen often. The case of Minister Santati is an exceptional case.Let us summarize the account on Santati’ per the link you provided. Others may want to read the account in the link provided above.
1. He was a Minister to King Pasenadi and won a battle for the King. After celebrating the victory for seven days, Santati was drunk when the Buddha saw him earlier in the day. Later in the day, one of the dancing girls who entertained him died of exhaustion, and Minister Santati was thoroughly distressed. He went to see the Buddha and the Buddha explained to him in a single verse why he became so distressed. The translation there is not that good, but you can get the idea.
“The root cause for ANY kind of suffering is attachment to worldly things (upādāna.)”
– I have discussed this in detail recently: “Concepts of Upādāna and Upādānakkhandha”
2. Just by hearing that verse, minister Santati attained Arahanthood. Not only that, he had attained abhinna powers as well. That is the key point to think about. This account is very similar to that of Vne. Culapanthaka, who had been unable to even memorize a single verse for many months, but attained Arahanthood complete with abhinna powers in a day!
– Also see the amazing account of Ven. Cūḷapanthaka in #2 of “Are There Procedures for Attaining Magga Phala, Jhāna and Abhiññā?”3. With his abhinna powers, Minister Santati saw that his life is coming to an end. With Buddha’s consent, he rose to the sky and set himself on fire at the moment of death. In the version that I had heard, the Buddha actually asked him to do that so that others could see that he had attained Arahanthood complete with abhinna powers.
4. The point here is that Minister Santati had not cultivated any jhana. He was a warrior who had just led an army to battle. But apparently, he had fulfilled most of the paramita in his prior lives, and “needed only a little push” to get to the Arahanthood.
– He had cultivated jhana in prior lives as well and that is why he (and Ven. Culapanthaka) automatically attained abhinna powers together with the Arahanthood.1 user thanked author for this post.
Hello DanielSt,
Offhand, I don’t think I came across a specific Tipitaka reference on the lifetime of a pure octad (suddhāṭṭhaka).
However, any rupa has a finite lifetime. The solid Earth lasts for a fourth of a Maha Kappa, so the lifetimes of MOST OF suddhāṭṭhaka should be in that time range.
See, “The Origin of Matter – Suddhāṭṭhaka”
– Also, see, “Buddhism and Evolution – Aggañña Sutta (DN 27)”I hope you read specifically post, “Does any Object (Rupa) Last only 17 Thought Moments?”
You probably those above cited posts, but I just wanted to make sure.
Finally, certain suddhāṭṭhaka may have longer lifetimes. For example, the lifetimes of arupavacara Brahmas are MANY Maha Kappas. Thus, those suddhāṭṭhaka associated with their hadaya vatthu would have very long lifetimes.
– However, there is no rupa that will last forever. All sankhata have finite lifetimes.Yes. The account of that man in the Tipitaka is astonishing.
However, there are several such accounts in the Tipitaka. One Arahant instantly transformed some things into gold.
– Another could form a flame on his fingertip to see in the dark. There are several interesting deeds that bhikkhu did according to that sutta. He could make accommodations for many visiting bhikkhus, who showed up unexpectedly just to test his abhinna powers.
– The story of Ven. Cūḷapanthaka is famous. He once made 1000 copies of himself and got them to clean up the temple grounds.
I have discussed some of these. See, for example, “Buddhahood Associated Controversies”Once one attains abhinna powers, manipulating “material objects” becomes quite easy, it seems. Maybe we should not spend too much time on such topics and focus on learning Dhamma concepts. But I wanted to illustrate that such seemingly miraculous deeds are perfectly consistent with science.
You wrote: “During meditation and also during the day when I am aware of the breath, there is a feeling of calm and contentment, how am I able to experience that if so much is happening in the mind. Or is the mind of a meditator not as active as a non meditator..”
Our minds are agitated due to so many arammana running through the mind even in a short time. This is why “multi-tasking” is stressful.
– Most people are attracted to breath-meditation because it calms down the mind. The reason is very simple: Mind now has only one arammana, the breath!However, that itself does not do ANYTHING to cultivate the Path. One needs to calm the mind AND THEN contemplate on Dhamma concepts (and learn) or contemplate on the anicca nature (unfruitfulness of craving worldly things) once the anicca concept is understood.
So, it is OK to calm down the mind by initially focusing on the breath for a short time. But it is foolish to keep doing that for hours! Complete waste of precious time!
“And after the gati has changed from male to female, for example, the gandhabba blueprint coming out of the body (in that same bhava) would also have changed, I assume?”
I did not say that the bhava dasaka necessarily changed in the above case.
– Change in the sex organs would not require a change in the bhava dasaka. As I explained above, bhava dasaka incorporates the “gati” (itthi gati or purisa gati). One with itthi gati is more likely to have female sex organs.
– In the account of that wealthy person whose sex organs changed, his bhava dasaka did not have to change.I hope that point is clear. If not please ask.
DanielSt asked: “How about the case of two-and three-rooted consciousness? Would it work similarly, or does this need a new bhava transition?”
– No. Those do not change until a new bhava is grasped.
– So, the bottom line is that a human gandhabba would have the same “dasakas” lasting through the end of the bhava.I welcome your questions, DanielSt.
– My goal is to have fully self-consistent (of course, consistent with the Tipitaka too) accounts at the website.So, if anyone sees any inconsistency, please don’t hesitate to point them out. But it would make it much easier for me if the exact place in a post is referred and any external reference is also provided. That would be easier for me to make necessary revisions too.
OK. Yes. I see that in the book.
– I need to spend some time to find a reference in the Tipitaka. Bhikkhu Bodhi’s book is a translation of a Commentary and is not part of the Tipitaka. Yet, the material in the book is mostly correct.As I remember, “itthi gati” and “purisa gati” do not necessarily have to match sex.
– For example, there are men with “feminine gati” and vice versa.
– So, even though Brahmas do not have sex organs, they may have different types of gati.
– I think it was Waharaka Theor who explained this in one of his discourses. Anyway, if I find a reference I will post it.Regarding the other issue, I have never stated that sex change is not possible.
– When a human gandhabba is born by kammic energy, it will have either male or female sex organs (more correctly the blueprint for it). So, when it gets into a womb and is born a human baby it will have either male or female sex organs.
– However, that sex can change even during a lifetime as a kamma vipaka. There is a dramatic account in the Tipitaka of a wealthy person during the time of the Buddha who became a woman and switched back again to a man. He had seen an Arahant taking a bath in a river. That Arahant had a beautiful body and this person generated lustful thoughts and instantly became a woman (of course, he did not know it was an Arahant). After becoming a woman he realized what happened and was able to meet the Arahant and get the sex changed reversed!
– I don’t remember the name of the sutta. Hopefully, someone will know and post the name of the sutta.Hi raj,
Bhavanga is not something that one experiences actively (i.e., they are not “thoughts”.)
– All citta (loosely called “thoughts”) arise in citta vithi. Each citta vithi has 17 citta, and millions of them can run through the mind in a second.
– Bavanga is the “state of the mind” in-between citta vithi. But the does not register ANYTHING while in bhavanga.
– In most bhavanga states, the mind does not “feel” anything. It is thus normally in a “neutral” bhavanga state. But right after a strong sensory event, the mind may retain that “mindset” for a while. For example, if X hears that his father just died, that “sad mindset” could be with X for many days.
– In contrast, there will be citta vithi flowing during meditation. You may be thinking about the “calm mindset” during meditation. But those are still citta vithi, with “good thoughts”. That is why they provide calmness.You may want to read the following post:
“Bhava and Bhavaṅga – Simply Explained”If you still have questions, please feel free to ask.
Hello DanielSt,
You wrote: “I checked Ven. Bodhi’s Book on Abhidhamma, it is mentioned that there is no Bhava dasaka (sex property) in the Brahma realm.”
Could you give the page number in the book?
– Bhava dasaka, in some books, is loosely translated as man/woman nature, but it encompasses many other features related to one’s gati or bhava.
– However, before I spend time on this, I like to read the text in Bhikkhu Bodhi’s book. I have the book.Your other question is ” According to my understanding of Abhidhamma, and your explanation, a gender change can only happen with a cuti-patisandhi transition, or, a new bhava.”
– I don’t think I said that sex changes cannot occur within a life. Could you point to bullet # and the post?While most of the explanations are good in the above discourse, this Bhante’s other discourses may not be.
I listened to another discourse that came up on youtube and it had the usual interpretation of anicca as just impermanence.
– While impermanence is part of the anicca nature, anicca means much more.
