[Lal]

The key issue is how a hadaya vatthu arises for a given existence. It is explained in Paticca Samuppada (PS):

1. A hadaya vatthu for a future existence arises due to a specific kammic energy created in this life or previous lives. Let us take my hadaya vatthu.

2. When I die, my gandhabba (with hadaya vatthu) will come out of my physical body. Then it will wait in that gandhabba state until pulled into a matching womb, and I will be reborn to have a different human body. That process will continue until the lifetime of my hadaya vatthu is exhausted.

3. At that point, the last citta vithi from this hadaya vatthu will run, which will be focused on an arammana corresponding to the STRONGEST kamma from my past.
– Suppose I had killed another human being. That arammana would give rise to an existence in an apaya (one of the four lowest realms). But my mind WILL NOT grasp that bhava (existence) IF I have attained a magga phala. If I did not have a magga phala, then the mind would AUTOMATICALLY grasp that existence. That is the “upadana paccaya bhava” step in Uppatti PS.

4. I would have killed that human either in this life or a previous life (of course, this is just an example) via (abhi)sankhara that arose due to avijja: “avijja paccaya sankhara” in PS.

5. Of course, I would have done that ONLY IF there was a strong arammana that induced strong greed or anger (with avijja) at that time.
– That is why I have explained that the PS cycle does not start at “avijja paccaya sankhara.” One starts acting with avijja ONLY IF one gets attached to an arammana.
– I have tried to explain that in the recent series of posts: “Paṭicca Samuppāda During a Lifetime.”
– That description is for Idappaccayātā Paṭicca Samuppāda. But the sequence of events is the same for grasping an “uppatti bhava” or a brand new existence in another realm. Idappaccayātā Paṭicca Samuppāda explains “temporary bhava” grasped during a lifetime.

6. The bottom line is that brand new hadaya vatthu can ONLY be created by kammic energy.
– An Arahant’s mind would not grasp any existence (bhava) within the 31 realms. Thus, in Arahant’s last citta vithi, the Uppatti PS STOPS at the “upadana paccaya bhava” step. Thus, the next two steps (“bhava paccaya jati” and ‘jati paccaya jara, marana, soka, ..”) would not arise either. That is the end of suffering in the rebirth process.

[Lal]

Hello Dipo,

You wrote: “In February 2022 an article was published in Nature containing the first line:

“Understanding how consciousness arises from neural activity
remains one of the biggest challenges for neuroscience.”

My Comments:

1. That would be THE challenge IF one is working on the HYPOTHESIS, that consciousness MUST arise in the brain.
– There is ABSOULTELY NO EVIDENCE for this HYPOTHESIS.

2. However, Buddha Dhamma is BASED ON the HYPOTHESIS that consciousness can arise ONLY in a hadaya vatthu created by kammic energy. As we know, hadaya vatthu is the key element in a gandhabba.
– As I have explained, in Buddha Dhamma, the brain plays a role, but consciousness DOES NOT arise in the brain.
– That is CONFIRMED by rebirth accounts by children all over the world. In recent years, EVEN MORE STRONG evidence has emerged from accounts of Nead-Death Experiences (NDE):
“Near-Death Experiences (NDE): Brain Is Not the Mind”
– These accounts show that, (i) there can be consciousness without a brain (NDE accounts), and (ii) consciousness can propagate through different lives (rebirth accounts) while the brain is limited to just one life.

3. Thus, one HYPOTHESIS from #1 and #2 above must be incorrect.
– There is no way for both to be true.

I would like to hear your thoughts.

[Lal]

Thanks, Dipo.

When I wrote, “I am just trying to get an idea of how to make an outline..” I did not mean writing an essay. I meant making suggestions on what to read on this website.
– It is not even possible to make a brief “outline”. Buddha Dhamma can be understood in different ways. In any approach, it will take time, and how much time will depend on the person. You may not need that much time, but only you can know that.
– The bottom line is that until one understands the Four Noble Truths, Paticca Samuppada, and Tilakkhana, one would not have a good understanding of Buddha dhamma. Those three are interrelated.

One set of essays is “Origin of Life”

Another approach is: “Paṭicca Samuppāda in Plain English”

I recently started on another: “Paṭicca Samuppāda During a Lifetime”

– You may want to scan through some of those topics and see whether they could be helpful.
– I can try to answer any questions that you may have.

P.S. I forgot to answer your question: ” I am curious to know the sutta associated with your mention: “The Buddha prohibited the use of the Sanskrit language to teach Buddha Dhamma.” That would be a useful sutta to know.”

See #9 of “Preservation of the Buddha Dhamma“. Probably a good idea to read the whole post.

[Lal]

I take back what I wrote above. It is not worthwhile to read this document. I read it, so let me explain why it is a waste of time.

1. The phrase, “Early Buddhist Texts” does not make any sense. Are there “Late Buddhist Texts”? If so, how can they be attributed to the Buddha?

2. All we need is those “Early Buddhist Texts” that can be attributed to the Buddha. We have a set of such texts and it is the Tipitaka.
– There may be other texts like the “Chinese Agama” texts, but those are mostly translations of the Pāli Tipitaka.

3. Rather than writing books about the authenticity of the “Early Buddhist Texts” there is an easy way to figure out the true teachings of the Buddha. That is to look for any inconsistencies WITHIN the Tipitaka. I have seen no such inconsistency so far.
– If anyone can point out an inconsistency within the Tipitaka, I would be happy to discuss it.
– If not, why waste time discussing the authenticity of “Early Buddhist Texts”?

4. Furthermore, the author is in no position to evaluate any texts on Buddha Dhamma, because he is totally ignorant of the key concepts of Buddha Dhamma.
– That is a bold statement to make. But I can prove it.

5. I was triggered on this point when I came to read the subsection entitled, “saṅkhāra: choices” on p. 34 of the book.
– In that section, he writes: “Theravada gives saṅkhāra a rather odd scope. There, it is said to mean“ all conditioned phenomena apart from the things covered in the other aggregates”.
– On the contrary, many suttas in the Tipitaka clearly describe what sankhara are.
– He should at least read the post, “Saṅkhāra – What It Really Means”
– If he does not know what saṅkhāra are, how can he have an understanding of Paṭicca Samuppāda?
– If he does not understand Paṭicca Samuppāda, he does not understand Buddha Dhamma. Period.

6. There is more. He does not understand what is meant by viññāṇa either.
– Read his translation of “Dutiyabodhi Sutta (Ud 1.2)“. That links has both the Pāli version and his translation.
– That sutta explains the “Paṭiloma Paṭicca Samuppāda” which is the “reverse of Paṭicca Samuppāda“.
– Whereas Paṭicca Samuppāda indicated how rebirths (and thus future suffering) arise via the generation of saṅkhāra with “avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra“, the “reverse of Paṭicca Samuppāda” states that future suffering will cease with the ceasing of the generation of saṅkhāra with avijjā, i.e., starting with “avijjā nirodhā saṅkhāra nirodho.”
– The relevant verse in the sutta is :”..avijjā nirodhā saṅkhāra nirodho, saṅkhāra nirodhā viññāṇa nirodho, viññāṇa nirodhā nāmarūpa nirodho, nāmarūpa nirodhā saḷāyatana nirodho, saḷāyatana nirodhā phassa nirodho, phassa nirodhā vedanā nirodho, vedanā nirodhā taṇhā nirodho, taṇhā nirodhā upādāna nirodho, upādāna nirodhā bhava nirodho, bhava nirodhā jāti nirodho, jāti nirodhā jarāmaraṇaṁ sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā nirujjhanti. Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa nirodho hotī”ti.
– He translates that as: ” When ignorance ceases, choices cease. When choices cease, consciousness ceases. When consciousness ceases, name and form cease. When name and form cease, the six sense fields cease. When the six sense fields cease, contact ceases. When contact ceases, feeling ceases. When feeling ceases, craving ceases. When craving ceases, grasping ceases. When grasping ceases, continued existence ceases. When continued existence ceases, rebirth ceases. When rebirth ceases, old age and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress cease. That is how this entire mass of suffering ceases.”
– The Buddha removed ALL avijjā from his mind upon his attainment of the Buddhahood (Enlightenment). Did the Buddha stop making saṅkhāra in the next 45 years of his life as the Buddha?
– Furthermore, did the Buddha lose consciousness upon Enlightenment?
– He does not even understand that “viññāṇa nirodho” only refers to “kamma viññāṇa” and NOT “vipaka viññāṇa.”
– See, “Viññāṇa – Two Critical Meanings”

7. If someone does not understand saṅkhāra or viññāṇa, that person obviously is not qualified to write books about Buddha Dhamma!
– But I do refer to his translations in some of my posts because the side-by-side Pāli and English translations are convenient for many readers. Furthermore, some of his translations are fine, because those suttas do not discuss deep concepts. In the case of “deep suttas/verses” I always emphasize that they are not correct.

[Lal]

Thanks, y not.
– I was able to fix the link using your suggestion.

It is probably a good idea to analyze this document in detail. It would be useful to get the historical background right. Please feel free to comment on it.

[Lal]

Hello Dipo,

You wrote: “Another analogy I might use is that one’s Kammic (karmic) Profile is like an energy investment account. A person can make good/beneficial investments, and bad/un-beneficial investments to their portfolio. The overall dominant type of investments defines the account (profile). Compared to an account with mostly bad investments producing negative results, an account with good investments will produce positive results.”

1. That is a good outline.
– However, one CAN attain Nibbana (Arahanthood) while still having a lot of “bad investments” in the account.
– For example, Angulimala killed almost 1000 people and yet attained the Arahanthood within a couple of weeks of meeting the Buddha. The kammic energy that he had accumulated was still there. He simply would not “grasp” (upadana) such actions ever again because his mind was purified with the comprehension of Four Noble Truths/Paticca Samyppada/Tilallkana. See, “Account of Angulimāla – Many Insights to Buddha Dhamma”
– That is a different issue you may not yet understand. How familiar are you with Paticca Samuppada?

2. Karma is the Sanskrit word for kamma. It is better not use to use “karma” or any other Sanskrit words. The Buddha prohibited the use of the Sanskrit language to teach Buddha Dhamma. It has led to the current problem of interpreting “anicca” (Pali word) to be the same as “anitya” (a Sanskrit word meaning impermanence). Again, I am not sure how familiar you are with this issue either.

3. You wrote: “I look forward to this outline you mention.”

What outline are you referring to? I don’t think I talked about providing an outline.

4. By the way, I read a good part of your paper on “Is Buddhism Religion? Why it Matters”. I like it. You have spent a lot of time on it, and it explains why Buddha Dhamma is not a religion in a theistic sense.
– I wish more people would spend time as you do critically examining the teachings of the Buddha. Most “teachers” of Buddha Dhamma in the Western world today just translate deep suttas word by word (using outdated dictionaries) and that has produced awful results. See, “‘Elephant in the Room’ – Direct Translation of the Tipiṭaka.”
– I may be getting you to look at too many different aspects. Just pick those that get your attention the most.

[Lal]

Do things happen without causes?
– If there is no progress in understanding, it will not improve.

P.S. Unless one becomes at least a Sotapanna Anugami, any progress CAN even reverse. If we die before that, we don’t know where we will be born next. Even if it is in the human realm, one could be born into a “wrong family”.

[Lal]

Regarding the questions that you raised earlier, I will try to answer them in brief. I have already pointed out some references. Please don’t hesitate to ask questions if not clear.

1. Since energy can never be created or destroyed and is a fundamental constant in the Universe:
a. Consciousness must be a fundamental element of the Universe.
b. Kammic energy must also be a fundamental element of the Universe, but is more focused.

My comment:
Consciousness can arise only from a hadaya vatthu. Since grasping another “hadaya vatthu” stops with Nibbana, that “stream of consciousness” ends with the Parinibbana (death) of an Arahant.
– Once attaining Nibbana, a living Arahant would not create more kammic energy via javana citta.
– The most difficult thing for most people to understand is “why do you want the consciousness to stop arising?” The short answer is that as long as consciousness keeps arising (in different realms, via rebirth), most of those rebirths WILL BE in the four lowest realms (apayas). Understanding that is understanding the Noble Truth of Suffering!

2. Kammic energy is only possible with the convergence of consciousness and brain, which causes mind.

My comment:
NO. That I have explained. Consciousness can be there without a brain.

3. Gandhabba, a very small unit of energy, which is also subject to the Laws of the Conservation of Energy, is the wire, if you will, that allows the connection of “a” consciousness with “a” body (brain).

My comment:

Gandhabba (manomaya kaya) with the hadaya vatthu IS the source of consciousness.

4. Rebirth: It is the constancy of the energies of kamma, gandhabbha, mana, etc. that keeps the wheel of rebirth in operation, barring of course an intervention of nibbana.

My comment:

Yes.

Is gandhabba not the link, the gap, between “a” consciousness and “a” brain. Is the seat of the mind (hadaya yatthu) not in fact triggered by the gandhabba?

My comment:

Again, I have explained that now. The brain plays a role ONLY when the gandhabba is INSIDE the physical body. Data on NDE by heart surgeons provide evidence for that. Of course, numerous rebirth accounts provide evidence too.

[Lal]

As I wrote above, it increases with time as one’s understanding improves.

[Lal]

Regarding Yash’s question: “.. how one can know whether he has attained the sakadagami Stage?”

One will know that when one has lost the desire to POSSESS (own) material things that provide sensual pleasures. For example, houses, cars, paintings, …

But a Sakadagami has not yet REMOVED the tendency to enjoy such things.
– A Sakadagami needs to keep contemplating the “anicca nature” of such sensual pleasures.
– One WILL know when one gets there. One will not have the same tendencies to accumulate worldly possessions.

We discussed the key ideas in the thread on your question on the Anagami stage. You may want to re-read that. Until one starts giving up the craving for sensual pleasures, one is away from both Sakadagami and Anagami stages.

[Lal]

Thanks, Seng Kiat.

I disagree with that book for the following reasons.

1. Any stage of magga phala DOES NOT require jhana. Conversely, having jhana DOES NOT mean one has magga phala.

2. We can go to technical details, but a few simple examples can make the case.
– Those who cultivate anariya jhana DO NOT have magga phala. They will be born in a Brahma realm at death, but at the end of Brahma bhava, they will come back to the human realm and subsequently be born in the apayas, UNLESS they attain magga phala before that. In other words, attaining anariya jhana would not release one from the apayas.
– Of course, if one has even the FIRST Ariya jhana, then one is already an Anagami. I have explained that in a recent discussion and other posts. Basically, kama raga anusaya will be REMOVED (not just Suppressed) when one gets into the first Ariya jhana.
– Devadatta had attained not only jhana but also supernormal powers. He obviously did not have any magga phala, because he ended up in an apaya.

P.S. The following is not directly relevant, but I keep forgetting to discuss it.
There could be Sotapanna/Sotapanna Anugami who have anariya jhana.
– They will be born in a Brahma realm at death and WILL NOT come back to the human realm. They will attain higher magga phala there.

[Lal]

Helo Zapper,

Nirāmisa sukha is a “general sense of well-being” and NOT a particular vedanā (like when eating a tasty meal).

It comes gradually as the mind is cleansed of lobha, dosa, moha.

There is the following sutta where a former king/aristocrat who became a bhikkhu expressed it as “Oh, what bliss! Oh, what bliss!”
– The other bhikkhus thought he was thinking about the enjoyments that he had given up. But he explained that it was exactly the opposite.
“Bhaddiya Sutta (Ud 2.1)”

– We don’t realize the burden that we carry when we are enamored with worldly possessions.
– When you start seeing the “anicca nature” of those possessions, you gain nirāmisa sukha.
– It just happens over time.

[Lal]

Hello Dipo,

Thanks for the info. That should be more than enough. You seem to be well motivated and seem to have a better understanding than most.

I will go through some of the material and make some suggestions.

In the meantime, read #17 and the post referred to thereof “Will Quantum Mechanics Be Able to Explain Consciousness?”
– I think NDE studies will be quite critical in establishing that the mind DOES NOT equal the brain AND also that the brain is necessary for consciousness ONLY WHEN the manomaya kaya (gandhabba) is trapped inside the physical body.
– The manomaya kaya is NOT a “physical body”. It is more like an “energy body” or a “magnetic body”. It can arise ONLY by kammic energy created in our javana citta. That energy is too small to be measured/expressed in terms of physics, but CAN NOT be created in any way. That is why there will never be “artificial life”.
– Think about the following analogy: A tiny oak seed is like the gandhabba. It contains the blueprint for a huge oak tree. Almost all the “matter” in an oak tree comes from the soil. Just like that the manomaya kaya has the blueprint for the big physical body that we have, but all that flesh and blood is from the food we eat.

[Lal]

Hello Dipo,

Basically, the mind and consciousness co-exist.
– Mind is active only when there is consciousness (with “thoughts”). When we are in deep sleep, there is no consciousness, no mind, no thoughts. But the hadaya vatthu is still there.
– For consciousness to arise, some arammana must come to the mind via either the five physical senses or directly to the hadaya vatthu (sometimes called “mana“)

You wrote, “Kammic energy must also be a fundamental element of the Universe, but is more focused.”
– No. Kammic energy is created by our thoughts/speech/and actions (all those are based on thoughts since we think first before talking or doing things). Please read my first comment. It is CRITICAL to understand that.

Can you tell me what your educational background is? As I remember you are writing a thesis on Buddhism? which probably means no background in science?
– Also, you are not a Buddhist by birth? You are not quite familiar with the concept of kamma?

I am just trying to get an idea of how to make an outline. If you don’t like to discuss those details, I understand. But without some sort of background, I am afraid I cannot help much.

[Lal]

Hello Dipobhasadhamma,

The critical points to be addressed are in the following part of your comment: “Since science has determined that the brain is not consciousness nor does the brain cause consciousness, where does consciousness come from? This is the puzzle to end all puzzles. What is the connection between the brain and consciousness?”

1. Modern science is purely materialistic, i.e., it is based on the assumption that everything in this world can be explained as “material phenomena.”
– It assumed that the “complexity” increases in the following order: physics, chemistry, biology. Then once complex molecules and structures arise and SOMEHOW lead to consciousness.

2. Following is the explanation in Buddha Dhamma: Consciousness arises in the “seat of the mind” (hadaya vatthu), which is created by kammic energy.
– That hadaya vatthu is the critical component of the manomaya kaya (gandhabba).
– When one acts with lobha, dosa, moha such actions/speech is based on powerful javana citta with abhisankhara.
– That is why “avijja paccaya abhisankhara” ends up in “bhava paccaya jati”. That means a new existence and births within it can be traced back to those (abhi) sankhara generated with avijja (ignorance).

So, modern science will never be able to explain consciousness within the current framework.

I suggest reading the following posts. Please free to ask questions after you have read them. You may have read some of them. Since I don’t know how much you have read, I am just suggesting a few. When you respond, I may be able to point to more relevant posts.

“Will Quantum Mechanics Be Able to Explain Consciousness?”

“Gandhabba (Manomaya Kaya)”

P.S. I saw your second comment after I posted the above.
The post, “Brain – Interface between Mind and Body” could be helpful?

[Author]

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