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Thank you, TGS.
To quote: “Pali vyākaraṇa never became a courtly discipline in reform-era Sri Lanka, though it did develop associations with political power within the Saṅgha’s own monastic hierarchy.16 During the reform era, for instance, all the monks to hold the high office of ‘grandmaster’ were grammarians.17 The forest-monk and Sanskrit grammarian, Diṁbulāgala Kassapa, held the position of leader of the Saṅgha during the 1165 reforms, though he was not referred to as grandmaster.18 Sāriputta, his pupil, was the first to be acknowledged officially with this title and early in his career authored a Sanskrit grammatical commentary, the Cāndrapañcikālaṅkāra (‘Ornament to the extensive commentary on Candra’s grammar’).19 Our Pali grammarian Moggallāna subsequently attained the position of grandmaster, presumably after Sāriputta’s death.20 Saṅgharakkhita then ascended to the role in the reign of Vijayabāhu III (1232–6), administered monastic reforms and composed a commentary on Moggallāna’s grammar during his tenure too.21 His pupil, Medhaṅkara, author of a grammatical handbook, the Payogasiddhi (‘Practical construction’), and a member of the Diṁbulāgala forest fraternity, succeeded him in turn and led further monastic reforms during the reign of Parākramabāhu II in 1266.22“
- Sanskrit heavily influenced Theravada from the rise of Mahayana just 500 years after the Buddha. Buddhaghosa’s Visuddhimagga around 450 CE was also a critical influence.
- It is unbelievable that those bhikkhus completely ignored Buddha’s advice, not even to translate the Tipitaka into Sanskrit. May be they were unaware of the passages in the Vinaya Pitaka making that prohibition. See #13 of “Misinterpretation of Anicca and Anatta by Early European Scholars.”
- Even the Sinhala language has been heavily altered with Sanskrit words. It is a miracle that the Tipitaka survived in its pure form. Even though relatively few in number, there were enough dedicated bhikkhus who kept rewriting the Tipitaka on ola leaves every hundred years. It must have been a continuous writing process since it is not easy to prepare and write on those leaves, and they degrade within a hundred years or so. See #5 of “Preservation of the Dhamma.”
OK. Thank you.
I have revised them as follows.
4. Thus, “seeing” is a cakkhu viññāṇa (a thought.) We see that apple when a cakkhu viññāṇa arises in our minds. This is a fundamental fact, but it is good to clarify it. When we see that apple, a thought arises in our mind saying, “it is an apple.”
- The apple that you saw is NOT the same as the apple itself. It is just an image of the apple captured by your eyes. “Seeing” happens in your mind.
- Every time you see an object, that “image” goes into the “rupa aggregate” or “rupakkhandha.” However, that rupakkhandha is NOT preserved directly, i.e., as an image. When you recall a memory, you “regenerate that mental image” in your mind. This is discussed in detail in “Rupa, Dhammā (Appaṭigha Rupa) and Nāmagotta (Memories) (with chart #14).”
- There is no record of rupakkhandha (aggregate of forms) in the rupa loka! Memories of “rupa experienced in the past” are recalled from viññāṇa dhātu, as explained in the above post. Rupa and rupakkhandha are different entities.
6. Each event that we experience has a rupa, vedana, saññā, saṅkhāra, and viññāṇa associated with it. For example, when we see an apple, the associated rupa is the MENTAL IMAGE of the apple (which becomes part of rupakkhandha.)
- That event also has a vedana, i.e., we know that we saw that apple. The associated saññā is the recognition of the object as an apple. Then we may generate saṅkhāra about it; for example, we may be to decide to eat it (as a vaci saṅkhāra.) Then the viññāṇa encompasses all those AND any associated plan (to eat it.) All five of those automatically added to the corresponding AGGREGATES (COLLECTIONS), i.e., rupakkhandha, vedanakkhandha, saññākkhandha, saṅkhārakkhandha, and viññāṇakkhandha.
- And the four mental components get added to his/her nāmagotta.
- Thus it is critical to see that each person’s five aggregates (pañcakkhandha) are THEIR OWN. One’s pañcakkhandha is one’s whole world! One has experienced all of it.
- To emphasize, only the four mental components are preserved in the nāma loka. The rupa loka has only “material things,” Thus, rupakkhandha is not preserved in the rupa loka. The rupa component (the associated mental image) is “re-generated” only when one recalls that past event from viññāṇa dhātu. See “Rupa, Dhammā (Appaṭigha Rupa) and Nāmagotta (Memories) (with chart #14).”
In the future, please refer to the post (and bullet #) in question, as you did above. That will avoid confusion.
TGS, Tobias: I think it was the two of you who quoted the following:
“…rupakkhandha is NOT preserved.“
- Neither of you stated where I wrote that. I may have, but it must have been unintentional. I explained that in my above comment.
I need to fix it. So, please let me know in which post (bullet #) it shows up. Thank you!
Hello Tobi,
The Sinhala word for ākāsa (space) is ආකාස NOT අංක.
Apo, tejo, vayo, and pathavi are the INITIAL bhūta stages. They are called පඨවි, ආපෝ, තේජෝ, වායෝ (pronounced the same as Pali).
As we know, āpo, tejo, vayo, and pathavi are always “mixed.” For example, no pure “āpo” exists. Same for the others.
- When highly condensed, āpo, tejo, vayo, and pathavi become water, fire, wind, and earth (solids). Each has all other elements, but water, fire, wind, and earth (solids) predominantly have āpo, tejo, vayo, and pathavi, respectively.
- The Sinhala words for water, fire, wind, and earth (solids) are වතුර, ගින්න, සුළඟ, පස් (or පොලව). ākāsa (space) is ආකාස.
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Yes, Tobi. It would be the same idea. Thank you.
Tobias wrote: “I do not understand how you can say : “…rupakkhandha is NOT preserved.“
- I don’t know how many times I have to keep saying this. I NEVER meant to say, “…rupakkhandha is NOT preserved.“
- As I explained in my last comment above:
” It would be better to modify the last part of it as “Thus, rupakkhandha is NOT preserved DIRECTLY“ (meaning it is not preserved as a direct image.)
- But the preservation of the mental aggregates guarantees that it is preserved.
- Still, we need to send some energy to recall it, as explained in the new post, “Rupa, Dhammā (Appaṭigha Rupa) and Nāmagotta (Memories) (with chart #14).”
If the statement, “…rupakkhandha is NOT preserved.“ appears somewhere, it needs to be revised. Please let me know in which post (bullet #) it shows up. I will revise it as above. If it is there, it is only an unintended error.
Yes. I was thinking about removing this part of the table.
P.S. Seng Kiat agreed that removing that part of the table is better. I just removed it. Thanks to both Seng Kiat and Tobias for your efforts in improving the website.
That is correct.
- The “image” itself (of an experience) is not preserved; that would require energy. All necessary “mental factors associated with that past image” is maintained in vinnana dhatu.
- Even scientists are not aware of this concept. They believe all memories are in neural connections in the brain. But that cannot explain memories from past lives or out-of-body experiences like NDE (near-death experiences.) There is a vast amount of indirect evidence for both.
The point is the following:
1. Namagotta (memories) are preserved in vinnana dhatu as the mental aggregates. They don’t have energies but records. We need to make an effort to recall them. When we do, and if successful, those memories return to the mind as dhammā. Then the corresponding rupakkhandha is re-created in our minds. Thus, rupakkhandha is NOT preserved DIRECTLY as an “image.”
- Rupakkhandha is preserved in vinnana dhatu as metal aggregates.
- The recent post “Rupa, Dhammā (Appaṭigha Rupa) and Nāmagotta (Memories) (with chart #14)” explains that in detail.
TGS wrote:
This is where I need some help with clarifying. Recent reply mentions:
Hopefully, you can confirm that the rupakkhandha is “all mental” and is defined by only the four mental aggregates (but only the first three are enough.) “Thus, in this case, namagotta is purely rupakkhandha”
My reply: Per my general remarks above, I have revised the above statement there as follows:
- Hopefully, you can confirm that the rupakkhandha is “all mental” and is defined by only the four mental aggregates (but only the first three are enough.) Thus, in this case, namagotta is enough to define rupakkhandha.
TGS wrote:
#2.
Having reviewed materials from other PD posts and this thread. It has led me to believe that rupakkhandha is not preserved (stored?) in the namaloka as rupakkhandha but as the 4 mental aggregates.
My answer: Your above statement is correct.
- #9 you referred to is also correct. To quote: “9. It is critical to realize that a “rupa” cannot be stored in the viññāṇa dhatu. Only a “mental imprint” of a rupa gets stored. That “mental imprint” is in the four “mental aggregates.”
I am not sure from where you quoted the following. It would be better to modify the last part of it as “Thus, rupakkhandha is NOT preserved DIRECTLY“:
- “To emphasize, only the four mental components are preserved in the nāma loka. The rupa loka has only “material things,” Thus, rupakkhandha is NOT preserved.
Jorg is correct.
There is a jivitindriya rūpa AND jivitindriya cetasika.
- All living beings have the jivitindriya rūpa.
- However, jivitindriya cetasika rises only with a citta.
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Yes. That is correct.
- An Arahant would see, hear, etc., but not have ayatana since they don’t have anusaya or gati. Thus, there will be no abhisankhara generated based on seeing, hearing, etc.
Very good, Jorg. You caught one of the very few instances where Wharaka Thero stated something not quite right. That is one of the early discourses, and I had also noticed that.
1. An Arahant does not follow either kusala-mula PS or akusala-mula PS. That was a misstatement.
2. According to “pada nirutti” āneñjābhisaṅkhāra are kammically neutral; thus, in that sense, āneñjābhisaṅkhāra are kammically neutral. However, the term ” āneñjābhisaṅkhāra” for the “arupavacara samapatti” got stuck even during the time of the Buddha.
- I explained that in #3 of “Sankhāra, Kamma, Kamma Bīja, Kamma Vipāka.” Let me reproduce that below.
3. Abhisaṅkhāra are three kinds, as mentioned above:
- Some actions lead to bad consequences during life and also to bad rebirths in the four lowest realms (apāyā). These are “apunnābhi saṅkhāra” or immoral deeds: apuñña abhi sañ khāra.
- Actions that lead to good consequences in life and also to good rebirths are called “punnābhi saṅkhāra” or meritorious deeds; these lead to birth in good realms (human, deva, and the rūpa lōkas), thus avoiding rebirth in bad realms where one could get trapped for many eons. Thus it is important to accumulate punnābhi saṅkhāra: puñña abhi sañ khāra.
- When one cultivates “lōkiya jhānā” or mundane higher meditative states (arūpa jhāna leading to rebirth in the highest four arūpa lōka realms), via breath meditation, for example, one can be reborn in the four higher Brahma worlds. These also prolong sansāra, and are called “āneñjābhi saṅkhāra“: āneñja abhi sañ khāra.
- It is interesting to note that “āneñja” means “no more rebirths” and thus “permanent”: the ancient yogis (including Alara Kalama and Uddakarama Putta) thought these realms have infinite lifetimes and equated the births there to the “ultimate release.” Of course, the Buddha discovered that those also have finite lifetimes, even though extremely long, lasting eons (billions of years). That is how the term came to be associated (incorrectly) with “āneñjābhi saṅkhāra.” But that is how it is used even in the Tipiṭaka. “Paṭiccasamuppāda Vibhaṅga” explains the step “avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra” as, “Tattha katame avijjā paccayā saṅkhārā? Puññābhisaṅkhāro, apuññābhisaṅkhāro, āneñjābhisaṅkhāro.”
- Here those yogis can temporarily suppress all desires for kāma lōka and rupa lōka existences. However, since they had not comprehended the anicca nature, they still have “hidden avijjā” or “avijjā anusaya.”
In later discourses, Waharaka Thero explained the above regarding āneñjābhisaṅkhāra.
P.S. Also see “Rebirths Take Place According to Abhisaṅkhāra.”
No problem, Tobi.
If you have any questions, please don’t hesitate to ask. But take the time to formulate the questions.
You did not answer my above question, Tobi.
But you wrote a lot and then wrote, “I think I found the solution myself. “
If you understand, that is fine. If not, please start by answering my question: “Are we talking about TWO lifestreams”?
I think my problem is this: “1. So when two life streams experience rebirth at the same time, with 100% of the same impurities, kamma energy, every rupa and experience from the past, etc., everything is completely the same.”
We are not (at least I was not) talking about TWO lifestreams.
- It is the same lifestream switching from one existence (bhava) to another. For example, we will not be reborn human forever. A human bhava may last thousands to even a million years.
- I addressed what happens when that human is reborn as a Brahma at the end of a human bhava. Within that human existence, a SINGLE gandhabba (manomaya kaya) can be reborn many times with different physical (human) bodies. But at the end of that human bhava, that gandhabba dies, and a Brahma is born simultaneously in a Brahma realm. Since a Brahma does not have a physical body, it will live its entire existence with that manomaya kaya.
Let us get this sorted out first. If this is not what you had in mind, please explain what you were thinking about.
1. Yes. Hadaya vatthu is unique to each person, but it also changes when the bhava changes, for example, from human to Brahma or human to animal.
- All previous bhava are shielded from the new bhava. The old hadaya vatthu dies at the cuti-patisandhi moment, and a new hadaya vatthu is created by kammic energy.
- All anusaya are transferred to the new hadaya vatthu. However, some anusaya are prevented from “being triggered” in higher realms. For example, when an anariya is born in a Brahma realm, kama raga anusaya will still be there; but it cannot be triggered. Thus even though a rupavacara Brahma may see “mind-pleasing objects,” his kama raga will not be triggered. Yet, when he is reborn in the human realm afterward, then it can again be triggered.
2. Of course, the new hadaya vatthu will arise in the appropriate realm, i.e., in a different location.
- For example, if a human dies and becomes a rupavacara Brahma, the human hadaya vatthu dies with the physical body. At that exact moment, a new hadaya vatthu will arise in that rupavacara Brahma realm, which is far above the Earth.
3. 4. 5. 6. The hadaya vatthus are not the same as above.
If I did not understand the question (for example, in 5), please re-word the question.
