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Do I need to answer any other questions in your above comment? If so, please point them out. I think they are all related to this issue
Sir, it’s alright, you don’t have to answer them as I have started to get what you are saying. Can you just answer another related question please!
1) Can developing all the seven factors of awakening lead one to nibbana?
2) If it can lead one to nibbana then how do I develop all of them? Is there any practice for that?
If one cannot attain nibbana solely by developing all the 7 factors of awakening then anyways I am sticking with your previously given answers.
In any case I wish to know how do I reach/cultivate the path to nibbana in this life only. So I am seeking answers in this context only.Can you see how easy it is to generate a better comment?
Please compose your comments (especially the lengthy ones) in Google Docs. It is free. There are other free word-processing software, too. I hope others will follow this advice, too.Yes sir I have downloaded it and I’ll definitely use that for my next lengthy comments. Thank you!
Each person is different. So, explore some of the ideas suggested above. Take your time. Feel free to ask questions as you proceed. You can ask your questions in this thread to keep track of your progress. Of course, others are also welcome to comment or ask related questions on this thread.
Yes sir I am exploring topics you suggested above. There are many many of them! I was searching for something like ‘do it daily and you will reach nibbana’. But I guess that’s not how it works.
Sir thank you for giving your time. I’ll try to answer each of your questions one by one.
I can see how one could think “focusing on the breath” could be equated to “mindfulness.” (It is not. I will explain in a future comment.)
Since focusing on the breath keeps a mind away from defiled thoughts (those with raga, dosa, moha), it also provides a “relief to the mind” (which one may experience as “piti/sukha.”), and that may give an incentive to do more (i.e., viriya.) (But that effect is temporary. I will explain in a future comment.)Sir, in my opinion, by focusing on breathing it may lead one away from thoughts and towards temporary relief but being mindful of breathing forces one to deal with all those thoughts and know their impermanent nature and weakens the tendency of ‘holding on’ or tendency of ‘clinging’ on to them. This is just my opinion.(Btw I haven’t experienced pitisukha yet in my life)
But in any case I don’t think even mindfulness of breathing gives permanent eradication of defiled thoughts. It’s more of temporary solution.
So I completely accept what you said in above 2 points.
Can you explain how “focusing on the breath” leads to a “keen investigation of the dhamma”?
Sir by ‘keen investigation of dhamma’ I believe it means ‘seeing the impermanence of all the thoughts/distractions’. Am I right here sir?
Also, what do you mean by “dhamma”?
I meant the ‘nature of impermanence’ ‘anityabodh’ by the word ‘dhamma’. I guess I am wrong here, ain’t I sir?
Is that what you mean by dhamma? “contemplation of impermanence of thoughts”?
Yes exactly sir. I guess I am wrong here as well??
If so, how would that lead to Nibbana?
No sir I don’t think it will(help to) lead to nibbana(not directly atleast)and that is why I am asking here how to practice in order to reach nibbana. But I believe this is preparatory step? Am I right sir?
In a related question, what do you understand by “Nibbana“?
Highest wellbeing… when mind is freed from three poisons of raga, dvesha and moha? For example one becomes arhat when one’s volition/intention becomes free. In my understanding I believe after one glimpses nibbana for the first time, one becomes unable to do those akusala kammas which will lead him to apaya realms as one has understood what action or thought will take one where. I mean anriya person like me who has read some suttas may understand that there is no ‘I’ present in me but my cetana does not know that. It’s like I believe fire burns but I have never touched fire ever so I merely believe fire burns but my cetana is not aware of that. So my cetana is not free but an arhat person’s cetana has become free. Am I right sir?
In other words, what is the goal of your practice?
To have glimpse of nibbana in this life only.
Please correct me sir!🙏
P.S. There are still many grammar issues. You can ask a free AI program like ChatGPT or Grok to check your grammar. It is not hard, making it easier for the readers to understand your comments.
Sorry about that sir. From next post I’ll definitely do that.
It is hard enough to express our thoughts in words, so we need to make an effort to convey our ideas as clearly as possible. The message/ideas can get lost with grammar errors.
Hello sir I will explain my question again in simple and concise manner now.
1) I have heard that ‘mindfulness of breathing’ meditation helps in developing first four ‘bodhyangas’ (factors of awakening):
>Mindfulness (sati)
>Keen investigation of the dhamma
(dhammavicaya)
>Energy (viriya)
>Rapture or happiness (piti)And Vipassana-insight meditation helps in developing remaining last three ‘bodhyangas’ (factors of awakening):
>Calm (passaddhi)
>Concentration (samadhi)
>Equanimity (upekkha)(Let me ignore this Vipassana insight meditation part and instead talk about breathing meditation part, for now, at least)
2) Mindfulness of breathing (as I know it) involves witnessing breathing in and breathing out by staying aware of breathing at the area of nostrils…all distractions will (in the form of thoughts and doubts) come but still one is supposed to bring one’s mind again and again back to awareness of breathing. Process should be continued till one can constantly be aware of breathing without any distractions. It is a constant fight against all the thoughts and distractions.
3) In another case When one makes one’s mind thoughtless by trying not to focus it anywhere and suppressing distractions and then one (can) starts to experience some form of happiness above the happiness from 5 sense organs, which is also kind of ‘pitisukha'(this is not the same as 4th factor of awakening but something like that)(this is how anariya jhana starts I suppose because in anariya jhana one suppresses thoughts without realising the truth of their impermanence)(same as anariya gods who achiev birth in heaven by directly doing punna kamma without getting rid of tendencies to do papa kamma), then in order to start and attain and experience anariya jhana one is supposed to focus on that pitisukha like happiness or rather an anariya being naturally at this point by default latches onto that pitisukha like happiness as soon as it arises because it is also some overwhelming happiness. Now this can be done/reached by initially taking the help of mindfulness of breathing meditation also.
4) Through mindfulness of breathing meditation initially one can make one’s mind concentrated and can(without having to deal with distractions of mind) start to directly experience some kind of pitisukha by moving focus away from breathing and directing it to becoming thoughtless (by suppressing thoughts with force initially) to focus mind(achieve ekaggata) and make it more & more empty of distractions/thoughts resulting in experience of some kind of pitisukha.
So generally when one starts mindfulness of breathing meditation ..with practice, first many many thoughts/distractions come and they are suppressed or forcibly ignored and then they fade away(due to suppression) then breathing fades away and then as a result pitisukha arises in such focused mind and then anariya person latches onto it.(But this is not the proper way of mindfulness of breathing meditation). This is how anariya jhana is started I suppose.5) Now true mindfulness of breathing meditation involves continuously staying aware of in-out breathing and even pitisukha is not to be latched on and when pitisukha arises still one is supposed to stay aware of one’s breathing only. Actually it’s very very very hard to reach pitisukha if one practices proper mindfulness of breathing meditation. (I am talking this in the case when general anariya persons practices “proper/true” mindfulness of breathing meditation and I am not talking about ariya people sirs). So one is supposed to not let breathing fade away(by default it starts to fade away by becoming smaller and smaller as mind becomes less and less distracted). When breathing starts to fade away one is supposed to apply slight force to breathing (which has become so small now) just enough to increase the awareness of breathing and not let it fade away. Now as one works to constantly stay aware of breathing, first factor of awakening which is –
>mindfulness or ‘sati’ starts to develop and as one continues one is forced to deal with all the impure thoughts/doubts that arise in mind as we continue. So one’s observation of one’s thoughts actually increases and they are seen as ‘anitya'(impermanent) as they fade away after arising continuously and this is what I believe helps in developing the second ‘bodhyanga'(factor of awakening) which is –
>keen investigation of the dhamma (dhammavicaya) in the form of contemplation of impermanence of thoughts and then as one practices regularly one simultaneously develops 3rd factor of energy or ‘viriya’ as one is practicing continuously, fighting continuosly and after working like that only then one reaches the pitisukha(which is the 4th factor of awakening).
*Because of doing this kind of proper mindfulness of breathing meditation (I believe) one reaches a state when one is constantly aware of his breathing without any thoughts or distractions and simultaneously one’s mind is filled with pitisukha also!* But to reach this state one has to get rid of/be done away with all the deeper and deeper distractions and doubts that come to one’s mind on the way by seeing their impermanence. And this is actually very easier said than done!So my first question is this… Is there any mistake in my above all the 5 points? If yes then please clarify and kindly correct me 🙏
My second question is, considering above 5 points, is it right to say that ‘mindfulness of breathing’ meditation if done truly(as I tried to explain above), it can, help in developing first 4 factors of awakening instead of reaching anariya jhana??
It is a good idea to quote part of a comment (like in your last comment above) and express your thoughts about it.
In other cases, refer to someone’s quote by indicating his/her name (as I have revised your other two comments above.)Sorry about that sir I got it now. I ll keep it in mind from now on.
Ok sir it’s alright reply whenever it’s possible for you I’ll wait.
Others are also welcome to comment. Thank you!
You are probably in India.
Yes exactly sir.
The quality of sotapanna is truly understanding the fruitlessness of violating morals because it will lead to greater suffering.
Wow this is what I want to reach sir. I feel whenever I try not to break precept I do that forcefully and not naturally. I wonder how and when moral behaviour becomes natural and not forced!
Thank you for the explanation. My understanding is actually not higher or lower but I believe it is sort of messed up because of reading too much unnecessarily. It’s hard for me to know what is right way of practice (for me, of course) and what is not.
I daily try to reflect on impermanence and daily chant “triratna Vandana” (homage to triple jewel chant)
It’s actually very hard for me to follow all the things you told me in the above message, such as asubha and paticca samuppada. It’s overwhelming. I’ll try to start them gradually. Thank you!
@Jittananto:
Thank you, respected sir, for offering me discussion with disciples of waharaka thero. I don’t know him but based on what little I’ve read about him on this website by sir Lal, I believe he was Ariya being possibly arahant!
And also thank you for the advice sir. I am trying to do most of what you said. I need more about in *how to apply?* Sir. That is what I am trying to find.I heard that breathing meditation helps in developing first four “bodhyangas”(factors of awakening)
1) Mindfulness (sati)
2) Keen investigation of the dhamma (dhammavicaya)
3) Energy (viriya)
4) Rapture or happiness (piti)and Vipassana insight meditation helps in developing remaining three “bodhyangas”
5) Calm (passaddhi)
6) Concentration (samadhi)
7) Equanimity (upekkha)My question is about that, what I’ve heard above…is it right? I hope to get answer from sir Lal and offcourse other’s answers also I’ll take heed of. (Forgive my English if I am sounding rude kindly sirs)
Also by breathing meditation I mean staying witness at the area of nostrils and being aware of nature of incoming and outgoing breath. Also I ‘feel’ jhana(anariya offcourse) is entered or starts when one reaches pitisukha and ignores breathing and then latches on that resultant pitisukha and (forcibly) going for ‘thoughtlessness’ in order to increase that pitisukha more and more ignoring and forgetting breathing. But in breathing meditation (as I know it) one is supposed to stay aware of breathing continuously, even if one attains pitisukha still one is supposed to stay aware of breathing only.
Pitisukha starts when, as one witnesses breathing with more and more awareness one detaches more and more from his thoughts and as one becomes more and more aware of breathing with lessening of distractions of thinking and thoughts, the breathing becomes smaller and smaller and fades away altogether after some time and gets replaced by pitisukha slowly slowly.
So in anariya jhana(by default) once concentration is attained with the help of focusing on breathing, and then one focuses on resultant pitisukha/rapture generated moving away from breathing (this is I believe a reason why it’s called anariya jhana as one clings).
In simpler words true breathing meditation involves continuous awareness of breathing and even pitisukha is to be treated as distraction. Because goal of breathing meditation is “taking in of purities/good qualities(good thoughts) and taking out/removing away/getting rid of impurities/good qualities(good thoughts)Now this is what I believe, plz correct me if I am wrong respected sirs. Am I right here?
Also if successful breathing meditation does not mean to forget breathing even if one reaches pitisukha, then is it right to say that this kind of breathing meditation helps in developing first four factors of awakening?
If yes then I should continue to (try to) do this kind of breathing-awareness meditation and if I am not right then I’ll have to change my ways I guess. Because I want to practice so that I’ll go closer to nibbana and possibly attaining stream-entry in this life only. Thank you sirs. Sorry I sometimes sound rude because my English isn’t that good.
P.S. – I have read too many variety things and now because of that I am too much confused and find it hard to know what is correct way of practicing dhamma to attain nibbana and what is not. I am seeking guidance here.
“Anyways there is possibility that either this is problem due to language or maybe he is wrong here..”
- I do not think it is a wrong translation. Other people have told me the same. If someone has evidence to the contrary, please post a comment because this is critically important.
- Mr. Goenka had no idea about the true meaning of sankhara.
- The “technique” depends on a wrong concept! You should be able to figure out the rest.
Okay sir! I got my answer now.
Thank you very much for your clarification and correction regarding the topic! Yes I’ll try to figure out the rest!Yes sir I read the introduction part of sankhara from the link you provided above. Thank you for correction.
Sir, I think what goenka referred to as ‘sankhara’, it was, as I read on the link you provided , anusayas(the latent tendencies) actually. Translation in another language is surely tough and error causing task. I remember hearing latent tendencies in subconscious mind during course in English and hearing ‘sanskaras of raga, dvesha and moha’ in our native language. Anyways there is possibility that either this is problem due to language or maybe he is wrong here.
Sir regardless of that, what do you think about the technique of Vipassana as I (tried to) explain above. Is it possible to reach stream-entry with this practice? Or What do you think sir? Is there any possibility of that?
What do you (or Mr. Goenka) mean by “sankharas”?
- I think we can discuss things better once I understand what you all mean by “sanskaras.”
Sorry sir for not being enough clear.
As far as I understood Goenka’s course, sankhara means deeper remaining seeds of greed and ill will. And what we observe usually is not all of them but many many of them are present deeper in our subconscious yet to surface(come in our experience) because of lack of causes and conditions for them to arise. But eventually they all will arise on surface and if our mind stays defiled then we will multiply then without letting them get dissipated by themselves by their very nature of impermanence.
This is how I understand it. please correct me if I am wrong anywhere sir..Sir one thing I forgot to mention. S.N. Goenka says, as a result of practicing Vipassana, the part of mind which reacts to all the sensations and situations(by increasing craving for pleasant sensations & situations and despising/hating/disliking unpleasant sensations and situations) grows weaker and the part of mind which just witnesses situations and sensations without reacting grows stronger. It’s like our reaction to situations and sensations become less and less based on greed and ill will and ignorance thereby becoming more and more free from them.
So this I forgot to mention in earlier post sorry sir.Thank you for describing the “Vipassana-insight technique” that you learned from the Goenka vipassana courses. You described the “vipassana aspect” as follows:
“In that technique, one has to observe/know sensations over our entire body with (as much as possible) equanimity by roaming our attention over all the parts of our body in any sequence but without missing any part. Sometimes we feel sensations on some parts and there is no sensation on other parts regardless of that our job is just to know/observe the sensations by moving mind all over the body stopping at each part for about a minute. He says there are 3 types of sensations, pleasant, unpleasant and neutral. Our job is this – to not cling to pleasant sensations and just observe and know them with equanimity(that they are impermanent and aniccha) and then move on to another body part, to not despise/dislike/hate the unpleasant sensations and just observe and know them again with equanimity and then move on to another body part, same goes for neutral sensations. This way when we observe/know unpleasant sensation with equanimity, it will carry out itself and get dissipated because we refused to react with craving or ill will towards that sensation/sankhara. Same goes for pleasant and neutral sensations, which strengthens the understanding of ‘aniccha'(nothing can be maintained as per will) as well as ‘anitya'(impermanence).”
Let me ask you the following questions:
1. Why is it called “insight meditation”? What insights does it provide? Getting an insight means understanding previously unknown aspects.
2. is it possible to experience truly “pleasant/joyful” or “unpleasant/stressful” sensations in a group session like that?
- I would think that you mostly experience a neutral state of mind, especially after starting the session with “breath meditation.”
- Some people may experience unpleasant vedana due to cramps by sitting in the same place for a long time.
- In those cases, what type of “insights” can you get?
Thank you for your response sir. Please forgive me and correct me if I interpreted dhamma incorrectly anywhere.
Your Q was…
1. Why is it called “insight meditation”? What insights does it provide? Getting an insight means understanding previously unknown aspects.
– sir, my answer based on what I learned there in that course would be…insight into the true nature. Goenka always talked everything about this technique relative to this body only. Seeing everything as it is. He says it’s our reaction of mind which causes sankharas to continue in cycle because naturally all the sankharas are impermanent and subject to pass away but it’s our mind which is filled with kleshas(defilements) whose reaction to them causes this cycle to continue(cycle of suffering due to that particular sankhara) For example… If somebody yelled at us angryly then it’s like unpleasant sankhara arising on our body because of our interpretation of that yelling of another person to us, and then our defiled mind reacts towards it with hatred, resulting in us yelling back towards that person or something like that thereby multiplying it and continuing the cycle of that sankhara and not letting it dissolve by itself by the law of impermanence(instead holding onto it and multiplying it), as a resultant creating another sankhara of hatred. But if one is Vipassana practitioner he will see other person’s yelling towards oneself as one’s own sankhara taking surface and he will not react with ‘dvesha'(ill will/hatred) towards it and instead he will be equanimous in that situation, thereby breaking the cycle of multiplication of that particular sankhara and resultant suffering. Same goes for pleasant situations, engaging in pleasant activity causes one’s roots of clinging/dependency to for example sensual pleasures to increase causing one to suffer once that sensation of pleasantness fades away. In this case also Vipassana practitioner will tend to be equanimous so that his roots of desire poison will not increase and instead will diminish as he will have equanimity upto certain extent which is not seen in defiled mind of puthujana who sees pleasant sensations as happiness and clings to it.Insight into true nature(of impermanence)of our body using our mind as a tool to experience/understand the truth of ‘impermanence’/’uday-byay'(formation-dissolution) of our body on subtlest level. “IT TEACHES PERSON TO LIVE EQUANIMOUSLY IN EVERY KIND OF SITUATION WHETHER IT IS PLEASANT SITUATION OR UNPLEASANT IR NEUTRAL”. When one(Vipassana practitioner) understands/experiences impermanence directly in his own body with his own mind then one will naturally drop attachment to this body as he will now see his own body as not worthy of saying mine…as it changes constantly billions of time in a fraction of seconds…so aniccha + dukkha nature of this body is also directly known as this practice progresses further and after dropping the attachment to this body because of knowing it’s true nature of aniccha and dukkha only then one’s mind detaches itself from body and looks for ‘that’ reailty which is not this(what is observed) which is beyond this aniccha and suffering or devoid of this(it’s hard for me to put in words sorry for that) and as a result realising also ‘anatta'(no self found anywhere) and glimpsing into nibbana becoming stream-enterer.
Dukkha nature is seen as unpleasant sankharas usually manifest on the surface in the form of for example ..pain due to any disease, pain due to sitting continuously and pleasant sensations fading away/ending away.
S. N. Goenka says through this Vipassana technique one can remove poisons of greed, hatred and delusion from there root. He says jhanas are not necessary to practice Vipassana as they just supress the defilements temporarily rather than uprooting them/destroying their roots directly. Whereas Vipassana is way to uproot the defilements from their source itself. He says vipassana is the art of living life and not escaping life.
Sir then your 2nd Q was …
2. is it possible to experience truly “pleasant/joyful” or “unpleasant/stressful” sensations in a group session like that?
– sir, Goenka says that it takes time based on one’s level of development of mind and level of paramis from past many lives to progress faster and he advises to practice this Vipassana technique for one hour daily after the completion of his course for atleast 1 year, only then one will get the proper grip on this technique of Vipassana. This 10 or 20 or whatever days course is just small step in a long journey of freeing oneself from suffering. (These are S.N. Goenka’s words)I will talk about my own experience. It depends on one’s ‘ekaggata'(focus of mind with level of equanimity) to experience such sensations. I don’t have experience of pleasant sensations but I do remember experiencing one painful sensation during my one session, it was on my cheek beside nose and it felt as if there was an itch/ulcer was forming then and there at that time and I immediately checked with my hands(we are not supposed to react like this as much as possible and supposed to just observe with equanimity with moving as much less as possible) but there was no ulcer/sore area there, it was just sensation surfaced.
Sir I have attended some one-day courses as well and I have observed that, after completing course, I have faced slightly more ammount of intense situations where I would be forced to get angry on my mom/dad/family members/friends during daily activities. I don’t know why but it seems as if not reacting angrily causes more sankharas to surface over our body and ones resilience increases although by slight ammount but it happens..as far as my experience goes. So my understanding is that as one practices this Vipassana technique regularly, one reacts less with poison of greed and hatred and more with equanimity as a result deeper sankharas are forced to arise on surface causing us to experience then here and now. The sankhara which otherwise was gonna come to surface only when it’s related causes and conditions will arise, is forced to come on the surface here and now..
Also the sensation of pain in legs or back due to sitting for long duration like that during Vipassana practice sessions, is also a type of unpleasant sensation and should also be looked with equanimity thereby increasing the parami of determination (S.N. Goenka says by attending this Vipassana retreat one also fulfills the pots of ten paramis even if it’s just a drop)(for example course is free and our eating, staying and all the livelihood for 10 days is taken care by the money donated by previous course attendees so we are advised to donate for the sake of those who are gonna attend that course in future if we feel that it was of any benefit to us. Donating is by choice and not compulsory, thereby helping fulfill Dana parami also)(this is also words of Goenka)(like this he explains how all of the ten paramis large pots are filled by tiny drops by attending this course)(this explanation I can give if required but it will be lengthy post)
I have not experienced any pleasant sensation till now though. But teacher S.N. Goenka talks about one pleasant type of sensation which most of practitioners will experience as they further progress and it is the sensation he calls ‘dhara-pravah’ from head to toe (literal translation of that word in english being ‘flowing of stream’ from top of our head towards bottom of our whole body). Even if one’s mind becomes much subtle to experience this pleasant sensation of ‘dhara-pravah’, one should not be happy about it, because even this sensation like all sensations is impermanent and aniccha(subject to change), instead one should know it with equanimity and one should strengthen the understanding of ‘aniccha’ nature of these sensations be it pleasant or unpleasant.
Sir I would like to tell you last thing about this. Before starting the course he recites and asks attendees to recite three refugees of buddha dhamma and Sangha and taking upon the 5 precepts and keeping them for the duration of complete course. He says this technique was lost and discovered by Gautama the buddha. He says one will naturally feel gratitude towards this person called Gautama the buddha as one progresses further in practice because it’s beneficial results will be surely experienced by one who is practicing it regularly.
I tried to explain Vipassana sir and tried to answer your questions as best as possible. Can you tell me what do you think about this? According to pure teachings of dhamma? Sorry if I sounded rude anywhere and for my bad English sir. Thank you.
