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Yes. Two of my older posts were not entirely correct (I think it was just one post that had it wrong, with the other one not being clear) I had not read them for a few years. I have corrected the main issues in them.
Rather than making more revisions to those two posts to make it clear, I think it is better to start from a different angle that may provide a better understanding. That series of posts will start with the next post. I will make further adjustments to those two old posts as we proceed. So, it is better to wait until I post the next post.
- “Kama guna” (“iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṃhitā rajanīyā” OR “.. likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing. …” ) are defilements that arise in the mind. That happens because one believes external rupa, sadda, gandha, rasa, and phottabba (touches) intrinsically have “enticing properties.”
- If kama guna are objective (inherent) properties of a sense object, we will not be able to remove them.
- The Buddha explained that precisely the opposite is true. kama guna are what we subjectively assign to “mind-pleasing things.” See my two comments above. That is why it is possible to remove them from our minds.
Anyone living in the kama loka would have “kama sanna.” Attchement to “kama sanna” with “kama guna” does not occur for an Arahant. (However, an Arahant in Arahant-phala samapatti or nirodha samapatti would not have “kama sanna” either.)
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The term “pañca kāmaguṇāna” needs to be understood.
- “pañca kāma” refers to the five sensory inputs and attachment to them: rūpā, saddā, gandhā, rasā, phoṭṭhabbā.
- That attachment is based on the six characteristics (“iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṃhitā rajanīyā”).
- The “uneducated average person (puthujjana)” attributes those six characteristics to the EXTERNAL THINGS: rūpā, saddā, gandhā, rasā, phoṭṭhabbā. In other words, they attribute “pañca kāmaguṇāna” to those external rupa, sadda, gandha, etc.
- For example, they think “pleasure is in owning a house or car,” “pleasure is in the music that one is listening to,” the food one is eating,” etc.
The Buddha taught that EXTERNAL THINGS (houses, cars, music, food…) do not have “pañca kāmaguṇāna.” They arise in the mind because of one’s ignorance of Buddha Dhamma.
- It may take a few posts to explain that in detail.
In a comment above, I stated: “Actually, I am still not on board with Arahant even having “kama sanna.” If there is not even “kama sanna” then An Arahant would not experience any taste! I am still trying to verify it. “
- Even an Arahant would have the “kama sanna,” i.e., experience the sweetness of sugar, bitterness of lemon, etc.
- That “sanna about the sensory input” depends on the “bhavanga” that one is born with. Those born as humans will have the sanna of the sweetness of sugar, bitterness of lemon, etc.
- Attachment to a sensory input comes after (within that citta; for example, cakkhu vinnana) when a puthujjana attaches to that sanna with “pañca kāmaguṇāna.” An Arahant has removed “pañca kāmaguṇāna” and, thus, would not attach.
- Anyway, this needs to be explained step-by-step.
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“(A) My question is, are there any sense objects rūpā, saddā, gandhā, rasā, phoṭṭhabbā “by itself” (without the mind or citta) that can definitely be said to have the “inherent / intrinsic” qualities or characteristics of “iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṃhitā rajanīyā” or that’s “agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, enticing, and leading to desire?”
- The answer is no. External things (rūpā, saddā, gandhā, rasā, phoṭṭhabbā) do not have kāmaguṇa.
- Kāmaguṇa arise (in varying degrees) of those who have not attained Arahanthood.
“(B) Would it be appropriate to say that Kāma Guṇa is more associated with tanha, while Kāma or kāmā, kāmehi is more associated with upadana?”
- Tanha arises due to kāmaguṇa, and kāma/kāmā arise due to kāmaguṇa (kāmehi means “in/about kāma.”)
- We attach to things in this world because we perceive that happiness cannot be achieved without them. The Buddha taught that it is precisely the opposite. We tend to do immoral deeds trying to accumulate those things (i.e., wealth), which leads to suffering (via kamma vipaka.)
- A deeper point is that the “intrinsic nature of the mind” (pabhassara citta) corresponds to “Nibbanic Bliss.” We cover that “pure mind” with defilements (raga, dosa, moha) and move away from the suffering-free pure mind.
Yes. What you quoted from the Uttiya Sutta confirms the above.
- Average humans believe that the kāmaguṇa (“iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṃhitā rajanīyā”) are in external things (rūpā, saddā, gandhā, rasā, phoṭṭhabbā)
- If that is the case, we will never be able to remove them from those external things and attain Nibbana!
- One is able to remove them only because they arise in one’s own mind.
- In the next post, I will start addressing these issues. It is a new approach using the pabhassara citta as the basis: “Pabhassara Citta, Radiant Mind, and Bhavaṅga.” However, I will minimize Abhidhamma so that most people will be able to understand.
Thank you, Gad.
Of course, it does not mean drinking alcohol is good.
- However, any past misdeed can be overcome by cultivating wisdom (panna.) For example, Angulimala killed almost a thousand people and attained Arahanthood in that life: “Account of Angulimāla – Many Insights to Buddha Dhamma.”
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Most of the explanations you have in brackets are not correct.
I have explained some in the following posts:
“6. Anāpānasati Bhāvanā (Introduction)“
Karaniya Metta Sutta – Metta Bhavana
7. What is Änapäna?
Is Ānāpānasati Breath Meditation?
8. The Basic Formal Ānāpānasati MeditationUntil one attains the Sotapanna stage, most types of meditations you asked about cannot be done. For example:
Aṭṭhikasaññā (desirous of; seeking for; profitable, good, proper, in need of)
Puḷavakasaññā (worms eating body, erection of hair on body)Vinīlakasaññā (The son of a golden goose and a crow; dark blue; color of dead body)
Vicchiddakasaññā (wave, backwash + drum + likely related to some vayu process of death)
Uddhumātakasaññā (to breathe out, puff, blow. To inflate, to make known by blowing (a trumpet); final breath and bloating of bodyAsubhasaññā (unfortunate; unauspicious; merit destroying)
Maraṇasaññā (agents of kama, agents of raga, agents of delusion & lust towards/in panchakhanda)
Āhāre (food? for each realm based on gati?)
Sabbaloke (all lokas/realms)
Aniccasaññā (anicca nature of all realms)
Anicce dukkhasaññā (how anicca leads to dukkha)
Dukkhe anattasaññā (how dukkha ??? maybe infers or concludes anatta)
Pahānasaññā (eliminated; abandoned; destroyed. what is??? bhava???)
Virāgasaññā (dissipation of lust/raga)
Nirodhasaññā (cessation of asavas/anusayas for/in sansara)P.S. Most of these cannot be explained in a few words. For example, the following two posts are on “anicca saññā (anicca nature of all realms):
Cultivation of Virāga saññā (dissipation of lust/raga) and Nirodha saññā (cessation of asavas/anusayas for/in sansara) are not needed until the Angami stage.
I will be writing about some of these in upcoming posts.
If there is not even “kama sanna” then An Arahant would not experience any taste! I am still trying to verify it. (P.S. See comment #45581 below.)
- This is a tricky issue because we don’t have any Arahants to verify this for us.
- However, as you stated, “Kāma Guṇa” definitely refers to attachment. I found some suttas that say an Arahant has removed all “Kāma Guṇa” from the mind.
P.S. I have corrected the main errors in both posts mentioned in Lang’s comment. I need to go through them carefully and make further revisions. Please let me know if anyone sees things that require a review. I want to take the time and make sure to get the facts right as much as possible (e.g., references from the Tipitaka.)
Thank you, TGS and Lang.
Yes. Some of the points you pointed out are incorrect and need fixing. That is why I thought of writing a new post first. Then (or concurrently), I will revise the relevant posts. Please post anything else contradictory you find on this thread.
Incorrect and needs fixing:
“5. However, this sōmanassa vēdanā that arises due to kāma guṇa are NOT the “samphassa-jā-vēdanā.” Somanassa vēdanā due to kāma guṇa arises in an Arahant, as well as in an average human.”
Correct:
1. “Under #29933 above, Lal wrote:
I have confirmed that many times. Yes, An Arahant would taste that meal to be tasty.”- But there is no attachment to that taste.
- It is just that the “sweetness” or “saltiness” in not a vedana but a “sanna”.
2. “Kāma Guṇa do not arise in an Arahant.”
“Somanssa and domanassa are both created by the mind based on Kāma Guṇa. Thus, they do not arise in an Arahant.”
- Somanassa/domanassa vedana do not arise in an Arahant. Only sukha/dukha vedana can arise in an Arahant.
“The Samsarā has no beginning we have always been there but we can put an end once we at least attain the sotapanna stage.”
- Correct.
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“The sotapanna stage is the beginning of the end.”
- Yes. It is the beginning of the end of the rebirth process.
—
“Nibbāna has a beginning but no end. Once we’re in, it is forever, no come back in the samsarā.”
- It is better to say that Nibbana is permanent. We cannot define it in terms of the words we use in “this world.” Of course, there is no coming back to samsarā.
—
“The lineage of the ariya has no beginning and end. We cannot find the first buddha or pacceka buddha and we cannot find the last of them because they will always exist and have always been there. No beginning and no end for this lineage. “
- The lineage of a given Buddha ends at the end of his Buddha Sasana, which may last for a varying number of years. See “Mahāpadāna Sutta (DN 14)“. Gotama Buaddha’s may last for a few thousand years, but some last for much longer. It ends when the last Sotapanna dies, i.e., when the true Dhamma cannot be passed down to another generation.
- But numerous Buddhas may have been there in the “beginningless past.”
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Kāma Guṇa do not arise in an Arahant.
- Somanssa and domanassa are both created by the mind based on Kāma Guṇa. Thus, they do not arise in an Arahant.
- An Arahant would experience only dukha or sukha vedana experienced by the physical body. Somanssa and domanassa are both mind-made (“so manssa” and “do manassa”).
Question: “I just thought of this, but would Kāma Guṇa and pancakkhandha be associated?”
- No.
- However, Kāma Guṇa gives rise to pancupadanakkhandha.
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TGS wrote, “It’s interesting to me seeing the Pali word “iṭṭhā” which arise in regards to an object that is desirable”. I notice that “iṭṭhā” also shows up as a description for Kāma Guṇa. “
Good catch. Yes. There is a connection. I will explain this in the upcoming post.
It seems that I need to write a post to discuss kama guna. After that, I will revise the post in question accordingly.
- Thanks to Lang for bringing this up. By the way, what Lang pointed out is fine.
- But kama guna can be explained in more detail to provide further insights.
I just read the post in question. It needs to be rewritten.
- I will do that after posting the next regular post. Hopefully, I can get to it within a few days and I will refer to it here.
The following link (sent by Gad; thank you!) is also related to the above discussion:
“The Body May Appear Beautiful but Is Still Subject to Decay and Death“
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Yes. It is not easy to translate Pali words into English. Sappaṭigha is usually translated as “graspable”; a better explanation could be “detected with an instrument or a measuring device.” The following explanation may be helpful:
- Sanidassanasappaṭigha= Sanidassana Sappaṭigha. Only light falls into this category as it can be “seen” and “detected with instruments.”
- Anidassanasappaṭigha = Anidassana sappaṭigha. Sadda (sound), gandha (odor particles), rasa (taste particles), and phottabba (matter responsible for the touch) cannot be seen but can be detected with instruments.
- Anidassanaappaṭigha = Anidassana Appaṭigha. Only dhamma rupa belongs to this category since that cannot be seen or detected with any instrument. Scientists are unaware of this category.
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Thank you, Gad.
- Yes. We should be able to extract useful information from any available resources.
- The links from you that I posted do have helpful information. But one must use them with caution. As I mentioned many times, MOST current Theravada texts (especially in English) must be “handled with care.” Most invariably translate “anicca” as “impermanence,” “anatta” as “no-self,” etc. See “Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta“
- I just got back and will look at the links you recently emailed me.
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