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“Then can we interpret that the “energy” required for a kammically neutral action, is just from a kamma vipaka? So perceiving sights, or generating a thought to tell the brain to move a finger?”
- Of course. Energy is required to do any work. So, even while getting the physical body to do “kammically neutral work,” the mind must provide instructions to the brain. That is included in the following part of my statement you quoted above: “(ii) maintain interactions with the brain while inside a physical human body.”
- What I tried to explain is the following. While doing such “kammically neutral work,” the mind DOES NOT generate NEW kammic energy that can bring vipaka in the future (for example, to create another human/animal gandhabba or a Deva or a Brahma.)
To summarize: (i) New kammic energy is created (with javana citta) only when generating abhisankhara with raga, dosa, and/or moha. Any kammically-neutral action would not generate new kammic energy. (ii) All mind-brain interactions require minute amounts of energy; that comes from kammic energy that sustains human existence.
- It must be noted that in (i) above, not only immoral deeds but also any moral deeds (done without understanding the anicca nature) can generate kammic energy. This is a bit deeper issue some people may not be aware of. See “Six Root Causes – Loka Samudaya (Arising of Suffering) and Loka Nirodhaya (Nibbāna).”
- The basic idea explained in that post is the following: Immoral deeds lead to rebirth in the apayas, the four lowest realms filled with suffering. Moral deeds like giving to the poor (done with mundane versions of alobha, adosa, and amoha) lead to rebirth in the good realms like the human and Deva realms. Such moral deeds automatically become “kusala kamma” that lead to stopping rebirth (i.e., toward Nibbana) when one starts comprehending the anicca, dukkha, and anatta nature of any existence in the world.
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1. When we think about energy, we tend to think in terms of the types of energy we deal with every day. These types of energy can range from the energy needed to heat a house or drive a car to going for a walk or moving the eyes to look at someone.
- Those energies come from burning fuel in the first two cases to “burning/digesting food that we eat” in the last two cases.
- In all those cases, the energies involved are HUGE compared to kammic energies.
2. Kammic energies are created by our thoughts. Most people don’t even realize that thoughts can create energy!
- Furthermore, “the work” done by kammic energies is unimaginably tiny, too. For example, when kammic energy “creates” a human gandhabba (consists of a hadaya vatthu and five pasada rupa), that is such small energy that we cannot quantify. Yet, that energy is enough to sustain that human gandhabba for thousands of years.
- When that human gandhabba enters a womb and merges with the zygote made by the intercourse between a male and female, the growth of the physical human body starts. However, that growth (up to a fully grown human) is via the food eaten by the mother (while in the womb) and the person after coming out of the womb.
3. The energy transfer mechanism between the gandhabba and the brain is also very efficient and managed by the kammic energy embedded in the gandhabba when it was formed.
- Thus, the kammic energy a human gandhabba acquires at the moment of its inception is enough to (i) sustain that gandhabba for many thousands of years and (ii) maintain interactions with the brain while inside a physical human body.
- This is why the Buddha stated that the subject of kamma/kamma vipaka is discernible only to a Buddha: “Kamma vipāko, bhikkhave, acinteyyo, na cintetabbo.” See “Acinteyya Sutta (AN 4.77).”
4. It is not possible to visualize the workings of kamma in terms of the “work/energy” we are used to.
- This is also why we cannot even imagine what a Brahma is like. A Brahma is also made of a hadaya vatthu and a few pasada rupa. Some can live for trillions of years with the kammic energy embedded in that fine “mental body.”
- For example, an electron cannot be seen with our eyes. A hadaya vatthu or a pasada rupa is a billion times smaller than an electron.
Even though we cannot visualize these entities or quantify them, it is good to have an idea of the difference in scales of ENERGY between the “material world” and “mental world.”
All bodily actions and speech are initiated in the mind.
- However, not all actions leave a “kammic residue” that can lead to vipaka in the future.
- All actions have vipaka (results). However, actions that do not involve raga, dosa, and/or moha only bring results at that time. For example, getting a glass of water to quench thirst is an action that will have no future consequences. The mind gets that task done, and that is the end of it. No future kammic consequences. The same applies to most things we do in a day (driving to work, cooking meals, etc.)
- Actions with raga, dosa, and/or moha may bring some vipaka (results) at that time and some in the future.
- When one gets angry and hits someone, that anger makes one’s face “distort” (one can easily identify an “angry face”), and that is a result (vipaka) that manifests at that time. But the rest of the kammic energy is “deposited” in the vinnana dhatu to bring vipaka for that immoral action in the future.
In all cases, a signal must be sent from the mind to the brain to move that body part the way the mind wants.
- P.S. ANY energy spent by the brain (and involved in moving body parts) comes from the food we eat. Those energies are NOT kammic energies.
- Please ask questions if the above is not clear. These are the basic/fundamental facts of Buddha Dhamma.
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Yes. Buddha Dhamma is deep enough. I believe that one should pay more attention to the fact that “sensual pleasures” are a mirage and mind-made. That “distorted sanna” is built into our physical and mental bodies via Paticca Samuppada. I will try to explain that in simpler terms with the new series in the “Meditation” section: “Meditation – Deeper Aspects.”
- It is better not to be distracted by “philosophical sidetracks.”
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Dawson: “If someone had only a couple of minutes to live and their dying wish was to learn about what the Buddha taught, I believe that an ariya would, without hesitation, explain the three characteristics of nature.”
- Yes. Furthermore, the same principle is embedded in the Four Noble Truths, the three characteristics of nature (Tilakkhana), or Paticca Samuppada.
- They all describe why/how our immoral actions lead to future suffering. The key here is not all actions but immoral actions.
- Puthujjana (average humans, including anyone with even the highest intelligence who has not heard/understood the Four Noble Truths) engage in immoral actions because they are unaware of the Tilakkhana or “true nature of the world” (anicca, dukkha, anatta.) Paticca Samuppada explains how immoral actions (abhisankhara) due to ignorance (avijja) lead to future suffering. It starts with “avijja paccaya (abhi)sankhara” and ends with “jati paccaya jara, marana, soka,…” or the “whole mass of suffering.”
- In the above, anicca nature says all our immoral actions or abhisankhara (believing sensory pleasures can provide lasting happiness) are unfruitful/dangerous. They lead to dukkha or suffering. That is why all such efforts are “devoid of value” and lead to helplessness (when reborn in an apaya), i.e., they are of the anatta nature. That is one way to understand Tilakkhana or the three characteristics of nature.
Kammic energy is immeasurably small.
- Kammic energy does not directly do any “macroscopic work,” like moving a hand or even batting an eyelid.
- Pathfinder’s example, “mind energy > electrical energy > kinetic energy to move the hand,” is not correct. The energy to move a hand does not come directly from kammic energy generated in the mind. In fact, no kammic energy is generated to move a hand if that action is a “neutral action,” like picking up a glass of water to drink.
- Now, if a hand is moved to hit someone with anger, that generates kammic energy. But that kammic energy is deposited in the vinnana dhatu to bring future vipaka for that immoral action. The energy to move our body parts comes from the food we eat.
Please keep asking questions if the above is not clear. It is important to understand it.
I think we are going off track here.
- Our suffering arises from our actions based on greed, anger, and ignorance.
- Since greed and anger/hate arise due to ignorance about the true nature of this world, ignorance is the root cause.
- What is the connection of “separation” with ignorance? Someone, please explain!
The Pāli Canon, Tipiṭaka (meaning “three Piṭaka”), is not restricted to the Sutta Piṭaka. It has two more: Vinaya Piṭaka and Abhidhamma Piṭaka.
- The three Piṭakās or sections are inter-consistent.
- See “Tipiṭaka – A Systematic Approach.”
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1. Buddha Dhamma is not a religion in the sense that there is no “savior” who can save anyone from future suffering or promise eternal happiness.
- It is a “previously unheard worldview.”
- If one can grasp that worldview, one can see that sensory pleasures and mental/physical suffering arise from one’s actions. Some actions lead to a “good future with mostly sensory pleasures,” and others lead to a “bad future filled with suffering.”
- But because of the craving for sensory pleasures, most end up in realms/existences with more suffering than pleasures.
2. The astonishing aspect is that any sensory pleasure experienced is due to the “distorted sanna” built into each existence.
- It makes a huge impact if one can understand this issue.
- For example, one can enjoy a good magic show. A good magic show is when one cannot figure out what the “trick is.”
- But the Buddha exposed nature’s magic show. But it takes an effort to understand that.
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“I wish resolving this issue was easier.”
1. We have reached a point where I can no longer give advice or explanations along this line based purely on “mundane logic,” as practiced by mundane philosophers.
- When one tries to understand Buddha Dhamma through “mundane logic,” that does not work. A mind has to undergo a paradigm change.
- This is summarized in the phrase “atakkāvacaraṁ” (beyond mundane logic/inquiry) in the “Ajāta Sutta (Iti 43)” that describes Nibbana.
2. To put it in another way: If one needs to learn to swim, he can learn about swimming strokes, how to float, etc., only to a limited extent without getting into the water.
- Buddha Dhamma cannot be “taught” at a deeper level; it must be learned. If that was possible, the Buddha could have “saved” everyone living at that time. Even he could not do that.
- That involves learning the basics and starting practice.
- You asked many questions: ” Why exactly are you so confident that no one other than Buddha, not even Arahants can discover those aspects of Nature? If Arahants recited the finalized Abhidhamma, should it not be explicitly mentioned that this is the work of Buddha? Interestingly, it also doesn’t seem mentioned anywhere in the Tipitaka that “Abhidhamma is a later addition which was invented by bhikkhus” or something like that…”
- My confidence is based on my practice and understanding. One’s confidence about the Buddha, Dhamma, and the Sangha (not merely bhikkhus, but on the Noble Persons) grows with one’s understanding. One first becomes a Sotapanna Anugami by cultivating wisdom or panna (called dhammanusari) or by cultivating faith or saddha (called saddhanusari). The latter is not “blind faith” but is based on panna to an extent. It takes an effort to undergo that paradigm change. Some succeed, and some don’t because they are unwilling to spend enough time and effort.
“Bhikkhu Bodhi argues that there is no mentioning of Buddha teaching Abhidhamma to the monks in the Suttas”
- That is correct. That is why Abhidhamma is not included in the Sutta Pitaka.
- The Buddha described the Abhidhamma theory (in detail) to the Devas over several days. Each day, he returned to the human realm to meet Ven. Sariputta and summarized that day’s desana. Ven. Sariputta and his lineage of bhikkhus expanded on that summary to end up with what we have in the Abhidhamma Pitaka today. Even after Ven. Sariputta’s Parinibbana, the project continued, and it was finalized only at the third Buddhist Council, as I remember. This account is on p. 11 of Bhikkhu Bodhi’s Abhidhamma book.
- The completed Abhdhamma Pitaka was recited at the Third Council, attended by only Arahants. That is enough evidence for me to support the authenticity. Of course, the other point is that NO ONE ELSE could develop such an elaborate and self-consistent theory on the human mind even if tried.
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“But you also state in the above referenced page: “The minute details on the structure of a citta vithi (a series of citta) of 17 thought moments, with each citta lasting sub-billionth of a second, can be seen only by a Buddha.” If you don’t mind me asking, how did you come to this conclusion?”
- Our minds are incapable of experiencing a citta vithi. It runs unimaginably fast: ” sub-billionth of a second.” We experience mental phenomena on the millisecond scale.
- That is why the Buddha ALWAYS referred to “khandhas” or “aggregates, ” encompassing millions of cittas. Scientists have done experiments to figure out the minimum time one needs to look at a picture to recognize it. That time is around ten milliseconds. (See Ref.1 of “Vision Is a Series of “Snapshots” – Movie Analogy.”) Within that time period, millions of cittas would have gone through our minds! The human mind is the ultimate quantum system. The “quantum” (or the smallest unit) is a citta. On the “material side,” the smallest unit (quantum) is a suddhāṭṭhaka: “The Origin of Matter – Suddhāṭṭhaka.”
- Detecting/experiencing a single citta or a suddhāṭṭhaka is possible only for a Buddha. Anyone else, including Arahants, cannot do that.
“I love Science but I have noticed that its biggest limitation is dealing with subjective experiences.”
- Yes. This is where “conducting controlled experiments” (the operating principle of modern science) no longer holds.
- Unlike “material phenomena,” “mental phenomena” are not repeatable nor reproducible.
- For example, the motion of a rocket or any projectile can be described by a set of mathematical equations, and such an experiment can be done anywhere by anyone and yield the same results. In contrast, mental phenomena are subjective experiences unique to each individual. Even the same person may not generate the same thoughts (or react to a given sensory input the same way) under different conditions.
- Yet, the Buddha provided a set of rules (types of citta vithi, how many cittas in a citta vithi, how a mind reacts under a given set of conditions, etc.) However, understanding how those rules can be applied takes a lot of learning. The suttas provide a “qualitative description,” and the Abhidhamma delivers a detailed and analytical solution.
- Some people say Abhidhamma is a “later addition.” That is the approach taken by those incapable of comprehending the deep Abhidhamma. Only a Buddha can provide such a detailed and self-consistent analysis of how the mind works. Of course, it is possible to grasp Buddha Dhamma without Abhidhamma. But Abhidhamma, once understood, provides a solid foundation for Buddha Dhamma. Any “murky issue” (that may come up while studying suttas and is up for debate) can be resolved by an Abhidhamma analysis.
I forgot to mention one key aspect above.
5. Those “javana cittas” that generate kammic energies are powered by raga (caving for sensory pleasures/greed), dosa (anger/hate when one does not get one’s desired sensory pleasures), and avijja (ignorance about how all that work).
- The ability for raga, dosa, and moha/avijja to arise in a mind are based on anusaya/samyojana. Those anusaya and samyojana can be removed by comprehending the Four Noble Truths/Paticca Samuppada/Tilakkhana.
- A Sotapanna‘s mind is devoid of ditthi and vicikiccha anusaya (two of seven types of anusaya) and three of the ten samyojana. In addition, an Anagami‘s mind is devoid of kama raga/patigha anusaya and kama raga/patigha samyojana.
- An Arahant‘s mind is devoid of all anusaya/samyojana.
- See “Conditions for the Four Stages of Nibbāna.”
This is an excellent question. You are engaged in the correct type of “insight mediation” (Vipassana.)
1. You wrote: “In Science, energy is defined as the capacity to do work.”
- It is the same definition in Buddha Dhamma.
- However, Buddha Dhamma addresses a special type of energy called “kammic energy.” It has the ability to create the most fundamental types of matter (hadaya vatthu and five pasada rupa). Those are the basic elements a living being is made of. Hadaya vatthu is the “seat of the mind” where all cittas (“thoughts”) arise, not in the brain as scientists believe. The five physical sensory units (eyes, ears, nose, tongue, and the physical body) are tools that collect data on sights, sounds, smells, tastes, and touches. Those signals are processed by the brain and passed onto the five pasada rupa associated with the hadaya vatthu (in the manomaya kaya or gandhabba).
- The above “picture” is put together by combining information from the Suttas and Abhidhamma.
- There are many posts on the subject scattered throughout this website. See, for example, “Manomaya Kaya (Gandhabba) and the Physical Body“, “Brain – Interface between Mind and Body“, and “Bhūta and Yathābhūta – What Do They Really Mean.”
2. Kammic energy is unbelievably tiny compared to the types of energy involved in moving a car or even lifting a finger.
- However, the critical constituents of a living being (whether it is a human, animal, Deva, or Brahma) can be created ONLY by kammic energy.
- That kammic energy is created by our thoughts (cittas), specifically in a special type of cittas called “javana cittas.”
- Javana cittas produce and release energies preserved in the “vinnana dhatu” as “dhammā” for very long times. Those are the kammic energies that bring kamma vipaka, including rebirth.
- See, for example, “What are Rūpa? – Dhammā are Rūpa too!“
- The first verse in the Dhammapada points out this fundamental aspect: the mind is the precursor to everything in this world. See “Manōpubbangamā dhammā..“
3. This is a fascinating and deep subject. I hope not only Taryal but also others will look deeply into it.
- This is why I say that the Buddha was the greatest scientist who ever lived! Nowadays, people are fascinated with quantum mechanics, but the Buddha described the most fundamental quantum system (the mind) 2600 years ago. Scientists’ discoveries match and confirm Buddha’s teachings: “Quantum Mechanics and Dhamma.” This section is mostly suitable for those with some physics background.
4. There are many relevant posts on the website. We can discuss more as we proceed.
Yes. That is the “previously unheard teachings” of a Buddha.
- You wrote, “This is one of the craziest concepts I have ever attempted to learn. It doesn’t surprise me that it is arguably the most misunderstood aspect of Gautam Buddha’s teachings. I still think this is not a 100% clear to me but I feel like I am getting closer. “
- That is exactly right. No average human can ever come up with that explanation (only a Buddha can discover nature’s hidden secrets). We can only see the truth of it (once explained by a true disciple of the Buddha who has understood that explanation.) Of course, each person must verify its truth by himself.
- One key issue with grasping that “worldview” is our built-in innate “distorted sanna” of an unchanging essence of a soul/atma.” Each birth/existence has that built-in “distorted sanna” (for liking certain worldly things) via Paticca Samuppada. That is why no scientist can ever figure out that “sweetness of sugar” is not real in the ultimate sense. Once one can see how that naturally gets built into our human bodies, one will have discovered the trick behind the greatest magic show.
I tried to explain that in the section “Sotapanna Stage via Understanding Perception (Saññā).”
- However, that analysis is too deep for many. I will discuss it in simpler terms (using a different approach) in the new series of posts starting with “Vipassanā – Buddhist Meditation.”
- Please feel free to ask questions as you proceed. We are all here to help.
- It could be a good idea to scan through and read some posts in the “Paṭicca Samuppāda” section. The key is to get started. Each person’s background is different, so asking questions is critical.
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