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In the ultimate sense, a “lifestream” (my term) goes through all that suffering (with brief existences with “mind-made pleasures” such as sensual pleasures while in human/Deva realms and jhanic/samapatti pleasures while in Brahma realms). It does not make sense to say “WHO” went through it, because it was a different entity at each stage. See “What Reincarnates? – Concept of a Lifestream”
- That is why I wrote the following in my above comment: Any existence is GENERATED via the Paticca Samuppada process. No “fixed entity” goes through the rebirth process (samsara.)
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Cubibobi asked: “Phassa actually happens at the pasada rupa –> hadaya vatthu, correct?”
- Yes.
- Good explanation. “Phassa ” takes place at the initial sensory contact. “Samphassa” happens in response to that sensory contact (if the mind attaches to that sensory input.)
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Taryal: “From an arahan’ts pov, “who” experiences samsara and “who” attains Nibbana? I do have a general understanding of this but something feels unclear to me.”
- In a mundane sense, we can say that the human who attained the Arahanthood attained “Nibbana.”
- We can also say that “who” experiences samsara at a given moment is whatever the lifeform is at that moment. It could be an animal, a human, a Deva, etc.
Any existence is GENERATED via the Paticca Samuppada process. No “fixed entity” goes through the rebirth process (samsara.)
Cubibobi: “Somewhere on the site is the story of a little girl who remembered her past bhava of a deva. Would that be an example of cutupapāda ñāna?”
- No. She did not have cutupapāda ñāna. That is an unusual case of a “rebirth account” by a child. Typically, children remember their last birth with a human body (with the same gandhabba, i.e., within the same human existence.) But in this case, she remembered possibly the last existence as a Deva, i.e., this was her first birth with a physical human body after she died as a Deva.
- Lang (Cubibobi) refers to the video discussed in the following comment: “Reply To: Lord Buddha statue.”
No. That was not done with cutupapāda ñāna. That person did not have cutupapāda ñāna. He could not recall HIS past lives.
- He learned some “mystic technique” to touch a dead person’s skull and tell where that person has been reborn. The Buddha agreed that his readings were correct.
The issue about a “self” can be cleared up if the following is understood:
There are two phases to go through:
(i) At the Sotapanna stage, based on understanding the worldview of the Buddha, one realizes that there is no “permanent self” like a soul in Abrahamic religions or an “atma” in Hinduism. That is the same as removing wrong views. That is also connected to getting rid of sakkaya ditthi.
(ii) Even after getting rid of the wrong view, there is still a “wrong sanna (perception)” of a “me” or “I” left. That is also called “asmi māna” or simply “māna.” That goes away only at the Arahant stage. Everyone, even those who don’t believe in a soul (like materialistic scientists), has “asmi māna.” Furthermore, even an Anagami has asmi māna.
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Cubibobi’s comment: “Through meditation, we can all access the knowledge of our past lives, which in Pali we call paṭiccasamuppāda ñāṇa.”
Isn’t this knowledge called pubbe nivāsānussati ñāna in Pali?”
- Yes. It is.
- There are two types of related ñāṇa: (i) pubbe nivāsānussati ñāna and (ii) cutupapāda (cuti and uppatti) ñāna.
- With the first, one can see one’s past lives in the human realm. With the second, one can see all past lives, including those in the apayas.
- Anariya yogis cannot cultivate (ii). That makes their wrong view of sassata ditthi (a “permanent self” moving from life to life) stronger. However, it becomes easier for Ariyas who cultivate (ii) to see the dangers of the rebirth process.
Yes. Your summary is good.
You wrote: “I cautiously speculate that phassa arising from indriya might not be discussed at all in Paticca Samuppada.”
- That is correct. Phassa and samphassa are entirely different.
- Phassa is a cetasika that arises in ALL cittas. In contrast, samphassa means “defiled sensory contact,” which appears in Paticca Samuppada.
- Possible confusion arises due to the uddesa (brief) version of Paticca Samuppada: “salayatana paccaya phassa.” That really means “salayatana paccaya samphassa.”
- See “Difference between Phassa and Samphassa.”
You wrote: “The statement “the sun is not a planet” is astronomically true. And “the sun is anicca” is a Dhammically true statement. Both are true and they’re talking about the sun, but astronomy is not Buddha Dhamma. The same logic applies here. (Of course, Abhidhamma IS Buddha Dhamma.) That’s the reason even if one is good at Abhidhamma, they may not have gotten any magga phala.”
- That is quite true. Some people know how to recite Abhidhamma, but have not fully comprehended the ideas. My goal is to try to explain Abhidhamma concepts in simple language.
On June 16, 2024 at 10:47 am (comment #50277) Pathfinder asked: “If that is the case, can you explain how Buddha knew that Santati will attain arahantship and parinibbana that very day?”
- That does not mean EVERYTHING is deterministic.
- I explained that in the post “Pāramitā – How a Puthujjana Becomes a Buddha.”
- Even a Buddha first gets “aniyata vivarana” or “not fully confirmed.” As a Bodhisatta continues to fulfill more paramita, a later Buddha would see that the Bodhisatta is “definitely going to attain the Buddhahood.” That is when a Bodhisatta gets “niyata vivarana” or “definite confirmation.” See #2 of the post.
- Some “predictions” may not be realized if prevailing conditions change. See #4 through #6 in the same post.
I am sorry I did not get to address some of the issues brought up.
- I think this discussion is very fruitful. It revealed some issues I need to address in upcoming posts. Thanks to Pathfinder for starting the discussion and all for the active discussion.
The following post is important: “Anatta – the Opposite of Which Atta?“
- I will write about other issues later when I have more time—I’m still traveling.
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OK. I will try to do that after my travels.
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Some of the points made above are per “mundane logic” and do not consider the “wider worldview” of the Buddha. Our conclusions must apply to all living beings.
- First, let us address the issue: “Does any living being have free will”?
- The answer is no. See “Distorted Saññā Arises in Every Adult but Not in a Newborn” (especially #6). Thus, not even all humans have free will. P.S. However, Most humans above age seven (with a fully working brain) have free will.
- In addition, animals and other beings in the apayas do not have free will.
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Good comments!
1. I think it was Nagarjuna or Buddhaghosa who tried to explain the basic theme of Buddha’s teachings with “there is no doer, it’s all just causes and effects.”
- That is not the way to correctly interpret the teachings.
2. If you apply Paticca Samuppada without grasping how the mind works differently in different realms, you can come to that WRONG conclusion.
- That saying applies to animals and beings in the other three apayas. They don’t have free will.
3. The reason for humans to have free will is mainly two-fold:
- As explained in Abhidhamma, the most potent javana arises when a good deed is done with an understanding of the anicca nature, i.e., when one does it with “sōmanassa sahagata ñāna sampayutta citta” (or “thoughts with joyful mind based on wisdom”) Suich cittas (thoughts) do not arise in those beings in apayas but arise in humans. See “Feelings: Sukha, Dukha, Somanassa, and Domanassa.” (especially #10)
- Humans also have fully developed brains. The brain “slows down” our response to external sensory inputs because it takes time for the brain to process sensory information. See “Triune Brain: How the Mind Rewires the Brain via Meditation/Habits.”
As I mentioned above, this topic is critically important. The above two points need to be discussed in detail, but those two posts should be helpful. Keep asking questions based on those two posts.
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Yes. This is a subtle and vital issue. Taryal has a general sense of it.
- Even though there is no “me” in the ultimate reality, everyone below the Arahant stage has a “sense of me” because they do not comprehend the true nature of reality.
- That ignorance is avijja.
- That avijja manifests when one attaches (automatically) to certain types of sensory inputs based on the types of gati they have at that time. One’s gati can change based on one’s associations (mostly family and friends). The “Gati Sutta (AN 9.68)” describes the five major gati that lead to rebirths. There can be innumerable gati within those five types.
- The first three gati are removed (and one becomes free of rebirths in the apayas) at the Sotapanna stage when one starts comprehending Buddha’s worldview, i.e., when critical wrong views (sakkaya ditthi) are removed. The other two are removed at the Anagami and Arahant stages. That requires removing “distorted sanna“
- I am traveling for several days and may not be able to respond fully. But I will try to find time to respond further when I have more time. In the meantime, please ask more questions so I can answer them all.
The word “upadhi” has a deeper meaning. See the two top search results below:
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