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“Question:
Is tanha the cause or condition? Or both depending on the situation?”Tanha can be cause or condition. Same for avijja. Both are root causes (related to lobha and moha).
Both of them will remain as anusaya until the Arahant stage is reached.
But they are not there all the time. They may be activated by a strong sense input.
Of course, BOTH will be lost at the same time. There can be no tanha if avijja is removed and vice versa.
Lvalio said: ” I felt intense Joy when reading for the first time the Sutta “Dvayatānupassanā Sutta-3.12. Observation of Dualities (Sutta Nipāta – Dvayatānupassanā Sutta – 3.12. Observation of Dualities)”
That is indeed a good sutta that explains the way to Nibbana. I just read it. Thanks for that reference.
You can try to locate relevant posts by using the “Search box” on top right. It comes with a list of regular posts and relevant comments in the forum. Search for “Angulimala” and may be you can find it that way.
It is essential that one must learn about the Tilakkhana from an Ariya to get to the Sotapanna stage.
– However, “learning about the true explanation of Tilakkhana” is not enough, as Tien pointed out with the example of Ven. Potila that I discussed in a past post.However, if one truly believes that one has an understanding of the “unfruitful nature” or the “anicca nature” one could be a Sotapanna or a Sotapanna Anugami. One could probably confirm for oneself by comparing whether one’s behavior has changed.
The best example I can give is about one trying to quit smoking. So, he learns about the bad consequences of smoking.
– If he really gets the idea that it is dangerous to keep smoking, he would at least cut down on smoking.
– But it may take some time to totally quit, by really getting the “sanna” that it is indeed dangerous to smoke.
– However, if the message DID really register in his mind, sooner or later, he would totally quit. Then there is no doubt.upekkha100 said: “English:
“Wandering for alms — weak, leaning on a staff, with trembling limbs — I fell down right there on the ground. Seeing the drawbacks of the body, my mind was then set free. ”In Pali it is:
“Vīrā vīrehi dhammehi,
bhikkhunī bhāvitindriyā;
Dhāreti antimaṃ dehaṃ,
jetvā māraṃ savāhinin”ti ”That is not the Pali verse for the above translation.
The gāthā is:
“Piṇḍapātaṃ caritvāna,
daṇḍamolubbha dubbalā;
Vedhamānehi gattehi,
tattheva nipatiṃ chamā;
Disvā ādīnavaṃ kāye,
atha cittaṃ vimucci me”ti.
(17. Dhammātherīgāthā)Obviously that bhikkhuni had attained the Sotapanna stage previously. She saw the drawbacks of the physical body and was able to overcome the remaining 7 samyojana.
Only the Sotapanna stage requires listening to Dhamma. Without that “vision” of the anicca, dukkha, anatta nature, one cannot attain the Sotapanna stage. Once one has that correct “picture of the 31 realms”, then one needs to lose the “wrong sanna” too. That happens via the the next stages and is completed at the Arahant stage.
– The bhikkhuni could have had the Sotapanna, Sakadagami, or the Anagami stage.Yes. She could have attained the Sotapanna stage in a previous life. One needs to “see” the real nature of this world only once. Once “seen” it is never lost.
I manage this discussion forum with the goal of providing benefit to the most number of people possible. If I try to be “politically correct” and let a given discussion go way off the topic or if someone is trying to bring in a totally different point of view (which is not backed by the Tipitaka), that will take the focus away from the forum and the website.
Compassion is not superficial.
In the Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta (MN 38), Buddha called Sati bhikkhu a “mogha purisa” or “an empty or foolish person”. That was obviously not done to verbally abuse him, but to get the point across.
This is what I recently learned at the other discussion forum too, where some people were making useless comments. “Baby sitting” those people would only make them more bold and daring (By the way, I would not put Siebe in that category; Siebe is sincere about his ideas. It is just that the discussion was not going anywhere. This has happened several times with Siebe’s topics in the past).
I will make calls on the basis of keeping in mind the benefits for the wider audience.
Siebe: There is no point in making statements without backing up with Tipitaka evidence.
If you want to make a case, please provide evidence. Otherwise, this discussion is not going anywhere.
This website is filled with evidence that “a person” is nothing but a “set of gati”. Suffering arises because we all have “immoral gati”. Even though we also have “moral gati”, they do not lead to high-levels of suffering.
However, when we get rid of “immoral gati”, one realizes that those “moral gati” also lead to births that are of unsatisfactory nature, and end up with suffering because one will encounter death eventually. Furthermore, upon death from that “good birth” one can and will be born with a “bad birth” filled with much suffering.
Thus when one attains the Arahant stage, one gets rid of “all gati that have arisen due to abhisankhara”.
But until that Arahant’s physical body dies, he/she will have some kammically neutral gati, as I explained in my previous post.
Unless you can provide concrete evidence from the Tipitaka to backup your claims, please do not bother to make “statements”. That will only clutter this discussion board.
Siebe said: “Someone who uproots all those anusaya only becomes more him/herself.”
That is contrary to all the teachings of the Buddha.
One attains the Arahanthood when one uproots all anusaya. We need to remember that anusaya are the “hidden defilements (lobha, dosa, moha)” waiting to come to the surface when strong enough sense inputs are received.
When one one uproots all anusaya one would have removed all gati (gathi) too.
Then one (a living Arahant) would only have “kammically neutral gati” like specific ways one speaks, walks, eats, dresses, etc. etc.
– When the physical body dies all gati would be gone.Yes. It is a beautiful verse, y not.
The sutta is about the merits that one receive due to punna kamma (good deeds) sooner or later. That comes from the whole sutta, even though the verse does not say it specifically.
So, I think the meaning of the verse will be more clear this way:
Human good fortune,
delight in the world of the gods,
even the ATTAINMENT of Nibbana,
through this merit they receive from good deeds.“Behaviour arises in two ways;
-1. Habitually, conditionally arising, impulsive, not free
-2. From emptiness, or ourselves, spontaneous, free.”How can behavior arise from emptiness? Thing do not “just happen”. There is always a cause(s).
Behavior arising form ourselves is the same as 1 above.
“There comes a time when one also sees and really feels doing habitually good is not pure. One senses that it is not stainless, because anything habitual cannot be stainless, because all habitual behaviour is grounded in avijja.”
You may want to explain why that is true.
Thank you very much, upekkha100!
I just revised both those posts to make necessary corrections.
Please let me know any kind of mistakes. We want this site to be “error free” as much as possible. I do make mistakes (there could be some especially in older posts), and I would appreciate anyone pointing out any errors.
I think the key is “ragakkhayo Nibbanam,dosakkhayo Nibbanam,mohakkhayo Nibbanam”.
Nibbana is attained by eliminating greed, hate, and ignorance (of the Four Noble Truths) completely.
When that happens, one would have cultivated ALL sobhana cetasika to the maximum. So, it is not correct to say that any sobhana cetasika (including metta, karuna, etc) would be eliminated.
Sobhana cetasika also include alobha and adosa. amoha comes via the panna (wisdom) cetasika; see, “Cetasika (Mental Factors)“.
What happens is the when panna is optimum, one not only sees the futility of staying in the rebirth process, but one’s sanna and citta will also be automatically adjusted to that.
Then one’s mind will not grasp (upadana) any bhava at the cuti-patisandhi moment.
If I have stated that alobha, adosa, amoha will also be removed at Nibbana, please let me know.
Yeos: I assume you are talking about “San” and not “Sun”? I have changed “Sun” in the title of the topic to “San”.
Here is the sub section on “san”: San
“The intellectual understanding of the “why” it’s not difficult…
but what is your understanding on the subject ?”I have understood the need to stop rebirth in all realms. I have no desire to be reborn anywhere in the 31 realms.
But I have not yet removed the “sanna” or the perception of “asmi mana” or a “self”. This is a complex subject and that is all I am going to say on that.
Nikita said: “So, if I get it right, that means that manomaya kaya of a bodybuilder does actually get bigger when he’s growing in size.”
We cannot look at the gandhabba kaya (or the manomaya kaya) in the same way that we look at or perceive a physical body.
– Gandhabba kaya is more like an energy field that can expand with the physical body.
– When the gandhabba kaya comes out of a dead physical body and has to wait for another womb, it can grow in “density” by absorbing various odors. Then it can become somewhat like a “fine misty figure” that some humans can even see (or be captured in some photographs). I think that is how the concept of a “ghost” came about.
– That “ghostly figure” resembles that of the previous human body. It may grow “hair” and “finger nails” (in fine form) with time and that is why they look scary. Even a normal human would look scary after a few years of not cutting hair and finger nails.
