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1. Christian wrote, “I think it’s not really correct as the example of that person who was Sotapanna but didn’t believe it even if Buddha said so,.”
– Does the above sutta say that Susima was a Sotapanna? If so, please quote that verse.
– What I read was that Susima was not a Sotapanna. He had the wrong view that all Arahants would have supernormal powers, could read other people’s minds, etc.
2. Now, Christian’s request to clarify what is meant by the verse, “Pubbe kho, susima, dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇaṁ, pacchā nibbāne ñāṇan”ti.”
It says that one needs to first understand how to establish oneself in the Dhamma (Pubbe dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇaṁ) before being able to become a Sotapanna, i.e., “pacchā nibbāne ñāṇan” or the “path to Nibbana” comes later.
– “Pubbe” means “beforehand” AND “pacchā” means “later” or “next”.
– “Pubbe dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇaṁ” means one needs to first get rid of the ten types of miccha ditthi and also understand that one needs to learn Dhamma from a Noble Person (i.e., the four conditions must be satisfied: “Four Conditions for Attaining Sōtapanna Magga/Phala“).The following post is by Christian:
From the “Susimaparibbājaka Sutta (SN 12.70)”
“Pubbe kho, susima, dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇaṁ, pacchā nibbāne ñāṇan”ti.
This is a very nice sutta, but can we get detail on this verse?
What I’m planning to do is or what I think is missing is a kind of system of reference when the practitioner can use certain information from sutta (types of people + types of practices, if they can attain or they do not have what it got to attain jhana) so there are further instructions, while it’s good to have all the information we have but there need to be the more precise way how people move up from Sotapanna further and what they need to do in their case. I know it may not be perfect because only Buddha can do that precisely but we need to have a general framework. For example, saying “Sotapanna will know the way to Nibbana” I think it’s not really correct as the example of that person who was Sotapanna but didn’t believe it even if Buddha said so, the problem is that “Sotapanna may see the way to Nibbana” but not necessary will execute steps properly even after seeing how things are and this may boil to various factors of types of people and types of knowledge people may have even with attainments, I think it’s very important to look at this otherwise most people will be stuck and dissatisfied even having proper understanding (which I saw this happening already)
The hardest part for a Sotapanna is to overcome kama raga.
– As we know, kama raga and patigha are related and both are lessened at the Sakadagami stage and removed at the Anagami stage.If you read many suttas in the Digha Nikaya like the Samannaphala Sutta (DN 2) that I mentioned above, they always describe the experience of a person who has become a bhikkhu, i.e., left the family life.
– It is quite difficult to overcome kama raga as a householder.
– But, of course, Dhamma will guide one to the Arahant stage even if that happens over a few lives. And, no rebirths in the apayas until that happens.P.S. Furthermore, as time goes on, the time in upacara/anuloma “samadhi states” will get longer. One will be get into jhana with time. As I also mentioned above, that time depends on the ability/habit to get into jhana cultivated over past recent lives.
P.P.S. As we also know, suppression/elimination of kama raga is also a requirement for anariya/Ariya jhana. That again is hard to do while being a “householder.”
If the verse is in the Tipitaka it should be, “sabbe pothujjanā ummattakā” meaning, “all average humans are engaged in useless activities like those who are insane”.
I have heard bhikkhus reciting that verse but I cannot find a sutta with that verse.
Sabbe = all; pothujjanā = average humans who have not attained at least the Sotapanna Anugami level
ummattakā = insane/mad (meaning “engaged in unfruitful activities”)The verse, “..kāmesu kāmasukhallikānuyogo hīno gammo pothujjaniko anariyo anatthasaṁhito..” is in the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta (SN 56.11).
I understand what both of you are saying.
Let me ask both of you a couple of questions before trying to give my thoughts.
1. Tobias wrote, ” after stream entry more formal meditation is required in order to get to deeper samadhi..”
– Do you mean getting to jhanas?
– You must get to deeper samadhi (anuloma, upacara) to get to the Sotapanna stage. See the last part of “Citta Vīthi – Processing of Sense Inputs”
– But unless you get to a jhana AND stay there for a while, you may not realize that you got to upacara/anuloma stages. To get to a magga phala it may not take too long. Note that Upatissa (Ven. Sariputta) attained the Sotapanna stage just while hearing a verse.2. Christian wrote: “..most suttas do not explain meditations in details..”
They do. Mahā Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta, Anāpānasati Sutta, provide the basis. However, those need to be explained in detail.
– See, for example, “Mahā Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta” and “9. Key to Ānapānasati – How to Change Habits and Character (Gati)”
– Also, see, “Jhānic Experience in Detail – Sāmaññaphala Sutta (DN 2)”
– So, it is preposterous to say (like that book) that Tipitaka does not teach how to meditate!Furthermore, people have the idea that one needs to cultivate formal meditation to attain magga phala.
– Jhana are NOT NECESSARY to attain at least the Sotapanna and Sakadagami stages, as I explained in response to Lang’s comment.
– Kayanupassana in particular and Satpiatthana in general (same as Anapanasati) are needed to get rid of kama raga/patigha and get to the Anagami stage. That is also called “Indriya bhavana” where one needs to CONSTANTLY be aware of getting attached to sensual thoughts.
– Once getting to the Sotapanna stage, one could do formal sessions.Focusing on jhana is the wrong approach. Most people get to anariya jhana and get stuck. Some of them even think they attained Nibbana!
P.S. It is not easy to get to even anariya jhanas.
– One must stay away from kama sankappa. That is hard to do for “householders” living family lives.
– That is why yogis in the old days went deep into jungles and stayed away from women.
– However, some people who had cultivated anariya jhana in previous recent lives may be able to anariya jhana without much effort. They are likely to have “less sensual desires” to begin with.Why should we take these claims by people who have no idea what Buddhism is?
These claims are preposterous. All necessary information on meditations (Anapanasati and Satipatthana have been in the Pali Tipitaka since the time of the Buddha.
– People may not have practiced those proper meditations within the past hundreds of years, thanks to Buddhaghosa’s Visuddhimagga and other influences by Mahayana.P.S. I just did a quick search. The book is by Grzegorz Polak. I have no idea who it is. But just one review at Amazon on the book says:
“Most of this book is devoted to showing that most of the traditional vision of early Buddhist meditation is fundamentally wrong.” (page 16).Please no more quotes or discussions based on this book. I will delete such comments.
Lang’s questions/comments:
(1) It is true that some suttas describe Samma Samadhi as the four rupavacara jhanas.
– However, that probably means being able to get into all four jhanas at the COMPLETION of Samma Samadhi at the Arahant stage.
– We can easily see that getting into jhanas is NOT NECESSARY to attain at least the Sotapanna and Sakadagami stages. If ANY PERSON attains even the first Ariya OR anariya jhana, that person will be born in a Brahma realm, and WILL NOT be born in human or Deva realms. But we know that a Sotapanna could be reborn in human or Deva realms and a Sakadagami can be reborn in a Deva realm. That proves that even the first jhana is not necessary to attain the Sotapanna or Sakadagami stages.(2). The problem is with the following statement by Lang:
“The Bodhisatta experienced an ariya jhana as a boy and learned anariya jhanas from the 2 teachers.”The jhana that the Bodhisatta experienced WAS an anariya jhana. To get to an Ariya jhana, one must have attained a magga phala. The Bodhisatta attained ALL stages of magga phala during the night of his Enlightenment. A Bodhisatta CANNOT get to any stage of magga phala BEFORE the night of Enlightenment.
– The Bodhisatta attained the first anariya jhana as a boy under a rose apple tree per that account.
– Later on, he attained ALL anariya jhanas with the help of those two yogis, Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputta.Christian found the name of the first sutta above. The following is the whole sutta and an acceptable translation for the discussion.
Christian, can you make your point using quotations from the English translation?
– I am trying to understand the point that you are trying to make.By the way, please provide links to the suttas in questions/comments.
– Some textbooks use “old ways of listing suttas” and it is very difficult to trace them. Usually, it is hard to comment on a sutta without looking at the whole sutta.I don’t know what those two suttas are. But the principle is the following.
1. A Sekha is an Ariya at or above the Sotapanna Anugami stage. One who has SEEN that Nibbana is the cessation of existence (and that suffering will persist until getting to full Nibbana or Parinibbana.)
– A Sekha is a “trainee/practitioner” who is working to get to the Arahant stage.2. One transcends or “goes above the Sekha stage” by following the Noble Path.
– He/she has “Samma Ditthi” and now needs to complete the rest of the 7 factors.As mentioned in Christian’s above (second) post, overcoming “kāma” is not easy for a Sekha.
– Another way to say the same is as follows: A Sotapanna has removed “diṭṭhi vipallāsa.” “Saññā vipallasa” removed at the Anagami stage and “citta vipallāsa” removed at the Arahant stage.
– The following post provides a breakdown of how that happens in stages “Vipallāsa (Diṭṭhi, Saññā, Citta) Affect Saṅkhāra.”A “less deep” post is “Is It Necessary for a Buddhist to Eliminate Sensual Desires?”
So, I don’t see any “missing pieces.”
Both Ariya and anariya jhana REQUIRE one to abstain from akusala kamma and sensual pleasures. The standard verse includes, “vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi..”
In the anariya case, many yogis attained the highest jhana by avoiding sensual pleasures via living in jungles, without seeing women or other sensual temptations.
But an Ariya SEES the dangers in sensual pleasures once comprehending the anicca, dukkha, anatta nature.
– After seeing that they can live among temptations and may still get to jhana.The MAIN difference is that avijja is only SUPPRESSED in anariya jhana. Avijja is gradually REMOVED in Ariyas whether they attain jhana on the way or not.
– Devadatta had not only anariya jhana but also iddhi (supernormal) powers. But he lost all that and was born in an apaya. That is the nature of anariya jhana.Isn’t that all one needs to know regarding Ariya/anariya jhana?
“Assāsa passāsa” has TWO meanings:
1. “Breathing in and out”
– That applies to “assāsa passāsā kāya saṅkhārā“, i.e., that is how the mind moves the body in the simplest way.
– That is in the “Cūḷavedalla Sutta (MN 44)“: “Assāsapassāsā kho, āvuso visākha, kāyasaṅkhāro”2. “Assāsa” is to “take in the Noble Path” and “passāsa” is to dispel/reject the “wrong paths” with “wrong views”.
See, for example, “Assāsappatta Sutta (SN 38.5)” , “Paramassāsappatta Suttta (SN 38.6)”
Those translations are not that good.
– Basically, “Assāsappatto” is someone who has become a Sotapanna Anugami and thus has started “taking in” the Noble Path (First sutta)
– “Paramassāsappatto” is an Arahant who has completed the Path OR “completed taking in” (Second sutta)
P.S. : “patto” is “someone who got to that stage/level” AND “parama” is “ultimate”
– Assāsappatto = Assāsa + patto
– Paramassāsappatto = parama + assāsa + pattoP.P.S. Of course, it is the second meaning that pertains to Ānāpānasati meditation.
Yes. Those are good. Thanks, Lang.
The second one is online and I use it often:
Lang’s (cubibobi) questions:
(1) Yes.
(2) I am not certain that those commentaries were actually written or just composed (just like the rest of the Tipitaka). I have revised that in the post as:
“.. Furthermore, three commentaries were composed in Pāli during the time of the Buddha. Per the Sinhala version of those three commentaries, one was the work of Ven. Sariputta and the other two attributed to Ven. Mahākaccāna (or Mahākaccāyana.)#3, #4: Yes. Those certainly qualify as “distorting Buddha Dhamma.”
– I am not sure whether they qualify as anantariya kamma. But it is a serious offense.
For example, “AN 2.25” is a short sutta that says: “Dveme, bhikkhave, tathāgataṃ nābbhācikkhanti. Katame dve? Yo ca neyyatthaṃ suttantaṃ neyyattho suttantoti dīpeti, yo ca nītatthaṃ suttantaṃ nītattho suttantoti dīpeti. Ime kho, bhikkhave, dve tathāgataṃ nābbhācikkhantī” ti.
Translation (to provide the idea): “Monks, these two people slander the Tathagata. Which two? One who briefly explains a deep discourse when it needs a detailed explanation. The other explains a discourse in detail whose meaning is already clear. These are two who slander the Tathāgata.”
– Two perfect examples of the first type of slander say that the words anicca and anatta are fully explained by “impermanence” and “no-self.” Those two concepts require detailed explanations.I would not call it “human evolution.”
1. “Human existence” is determined by the lifetime of the gandhabba, the “mental body.”
2. The “physical body” is just a shell that allows a human to experience gandha (odors), rasa (tastes), and phottabba (touches). The duration of that physical body is subjected to environmental conditions.
– Even now, in some poor countries, “physical-body lifetime” is around 50 years, while in some others it is around 100 years.
– Over long times it can change from around 10 years (when the environment is bad) to around 80,000 or so years when the conditions are optimum.
– However, the lifetime of human existence DOES NOT depend on such environmental conditions.It depends solely on the kammic energy.
