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I just saw the following thread at Dhamma Wheel by a Goenka practitioner of 21 years:
“Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style“
I just glanced through it, but it could be informative for gaining insights into the drawback of the Goenka practice. The following video is a summary that he posted on that thread today:
Your understanding is correct, TGS.
“My understanding is that “seeds aren’t necessary get ridden off or eradicated by remaining equanimous . . .”
These “seeds” are “anusaya” and can be removed ONLY by dispelling avijja by comprehending the Four Noble Truths/Paticca Samuppada/Tilakkhana.
- Goenka’s approach is the same as that of many ancient yogis, who only suppressed defilements.
- Even though Mr. Goenka had faith in the Buddha, he did not know about the anusaya, it seems. That is true of many practitioners of breath meditation, who adamantly insist that it is Buddha’s Anapanasati!
Dosakkhayo wrote:
“Mano sankhara never get to the abhisankhara stage.”
OK. I think the Abhidhammic explanation gives me more confusion than clarity.
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That is not correct. Abhidhamma gives a clear explanation. I will write a post in the future. If someone else understands it, this is the time to post.
I don’t see an issue in the last comment of Dosakkhayo either. I don’t see any problem. You may want to explain what the contradiction is.
I have revised #1 in my previous comment as follows:
1. In that post, abhisankharas do not arise until javana cittas, following the votthapana citta. If the mind is attached to the arammana, then mano sankharas arise in the first two javana citta. Vaci abhisankharas arise in the third and fourth javana cittas, and kaya abhisankharas arise in the fifth javana citta. The javana power weakens in the 6th and weaker in the seventh.
Mano sankhara never get to the abhisankhara stage. But in a citta vithi, mano sankhara lead to subsequent vaci and kaya abhisankhara.
- That is because mano sankhara are DEFINED as “vedana and sanna.” Kamma accumulation starts only after the mind CONSCIOUSLY start generating sobhana/asobhana cetasika after the vaci sankhara (vitakka/vicara) stage.
- Vitakka/vicara means “start deliberating what to do.” Depending on the decision to attach with anger, greed, compassion, etc., different types of cetasika are incorporated by the cetana cetasika. That is the “kamma accumulation” stage leading to abhisankhara.
- I will elaborate on that in the new upcoming post.
P.S. Dosakkhayo wrote: “I checked the chart in Icchā (Cravings) Lead to Upādāna and to Eventual Suffering.
It clearly counts all three abhisankhara as upadana.”
- But the post does not say that mano sankhara are abhisankhara. Is that right?
- The chart in the post is correct. The “upadana stage” stage starts with the first javana citta and is strengthened through the seventh javana citta. Even though the first two javana citta have mano sankhara (vedana, sanna), those inevitably leads to upadana and kamma generation.
- These are subtle points.
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Yes. Teaching/sharing Dhamma with others can be tricky. The best is to present the case and leave it to the other person to decide. In many cases, it is not worthwhile to get into arguments. But some need a little push, so the effort is worthwhile.
I could see that you were reluctant to give up many of the “old views,” but you are definitely making progress.
OK. Thank you for clarifying that, Jorg.
In that case, you may want to change the title “A deeper analysis of “sankharas” and Buddha Dhamma” and the text there (p. 82) to make clear what your intention is (what you discuss mainly is REGARDING “sankharas” in Goenka’s Vipassana.)
- You should EITHER discuss the correct “sankharas” (different types, why they are important, etc.) OR you can discuss the problem issues with Goenka’s Vipassana. That section confuses me because I am not sure which of those you are discussing there.
- Anyway, I agree that there is no point in discussing this further. But I am glad that I got a better understanding of “Geonka’s Vipassana,” thanks to you and Lang.
Of course, if you or anyone else has questions about “sankhara,” we can discuss those. If anyone else wants to defend “Goenka’s Vipassana,” we can discuss that too.
- I must say that Goenka seems to have faith in the Buddha. But unfortunately, that faith is not based on Buddha’s true teachings.
- I see many such people in discussion forums too. They present incorrect information, but they believe they know the true teachings. The problem is that even when shown evidence from the Tipitaka, they don’t seem to be able to understand the true teachings or to get rid of their wrong views. Self-consistency is the best way to verify any concept. Once you have the correct fundamentals, no one can point to any contradictions.
- But some people are so blind with miccha ditthi that they don’t see, for example, why translating “vinnana” as “consciousness” everywhere is WRONG! Even a child should be able to see that contradiction.
But then, why go into great detail to discuss this useless technique?
- There are many such useless topics out there.
- There is no point in analyzing such “meditation techniques” in terms of Buddha Dhamma. There is no rational way to do that. It is like trying to explain an unfounded/erroneous theory using another logical theory.
- My point is that it is useless to try to explain Goenka’s “sankharas”. He does not even understand what “sankharas” are! So, why go to all that trouble?
- To put in another way: Pointing out problems with Goenka’s technique must be done. But that is different from trying to explain his technique. I thought your pdf was about what you have learned to be the true Buddha Dhamma. Or is it that you are uncertain which is the correct one? That is fine too. Then I can handle the discussion from that point of view. I am confused about your intention. May be you can clarify that.
I don’t understand why this popping up of <br/> etc. happens. Don’t worry about them for now. I can remove them easily.
The main question is the following, Jorg.
Do you see that there is a problem with Goenka’s vipassana?
Regarding the technical note:
There is no need to use <br/>, <p/>v, etc. It is very easy to change a selected text to “bold,” for example. Please read the following post carefully: “Formatting a Post“
These are subtle issues. I probably need to rewrite the post “Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda for Vipāka Viññāṇa” (or break it into two posts) to further clarify. The following are the main points to keep in mind:
1. In that post, abhisankharas do not arise until javana cittas, following the votthapana citta. If the mind is attached to the arammana, then mano sankharas arise in the first two javana citta. Vaci abhisankharas arise in the third and fourth javana cittas, and kaya abhisankharas arise in the fifth javana citta. The javana power weakens in the 6th and weaker in the seventh.
2. However, the sankharas that arise in the previous cittas are not pure (unless one is an Arahant), even though they are not abhisankharas. That is because mano sankhara are defined as “vedana and sanna” and unless one is an Arahant one has “sanna vipallasa.”
Let me know if there are still some contradictions left.
I went through the videos for Day 5 and Day 6. I think I have a good idea of what is involved in Goenka’s “vipassana.”
1. I was under the wrong impression that Goenka’s meditation sessions involved breath meditation. Thanks to the above videos posted by Lang, I now have a better understanding of why many people argued with me, saying that “no, it is about vipassana.”
- Even though it is not breath meditation, it is not vipassana either. It is a “half-baked cake” with a lot of verses from the Tipitaka thrown around.
- Just like breath meditation, it CAN lead to calming of the mind and may even lead to pleasant “bodily sensations.” That is why people get fooled.
2. Day 5 video: I watched from 38 min mark. The theme that emerges is the following.
- One can gain bodily “sukha” AND wisdom (paññā) by controlling bodily sensations. He says it is the responding to vedana that leads to suffering. So, he wants to suppress all vedana. (@49 mins, for example).
- He says every sensation must be turned to paññā (by suppressing/ignoring the vedana?) According to him, that will lead to “avijja nirodha sankhara nirodha“!!
- Just by this practice, all suffering can be ended! He says learning is not enough, and it is the practice that will get rid of sankhara (this theme is further explained with “rupa kalapas” in the Day 6 video.)
- @54.40 mins, there is a flawed interpretation of the “Aniccā vata Sankhārā…” verse.
3. Day 6 video: I watched from 12 to 29 mins. The same theme, i.e., about “bodily sensations.”
- This video got to the point of what sankhara are.
- There is a mundane explanation of the connection between anger, greed, etc., to the “four great elements” of pathavi, apo, tejo, and vayo.
- He also gives an incorrect picture of “sankharas” being “rupa kalapas.” He seems to think that “sankharas” ARE “rupa kalapas.“
- The following seems to be the main point: Such “bad sankharas” lead to bodily sensations. Once you stop generating new sankharas, bodily sensations do not stop, because now “old sankharas” bring sensations. However, if one keeps practicing, eventually these “old sankharas” will also be depleted. Presumably, one attains Arahanthood at that point!
- @26 mins, he directly says this practice leads to wisdom! No need to learn anything else.
4. If I missed anything critical or my understanding of “Goenka vipassana” is incorrect, please don’t hesitate to point them out. I want to be fully informed about this technique. I should have spent some time earlier. That would have saved a lot of arguing with people assuming that it was all about “breath meditation.”
- In a way, this is even worse than breath mediation. It gives the idea that these are the actual teachings of the Buddha.
- The point is that one must first get rid of the “ditthi anusaya” by understanding the worldview of the Buddha, i.e., how births in different realms arise due to “avijja paccaya abhisankhara.” One can seriously start “meditating” on removing defilements only after that. Otherwise, practices like these only SUPPRESS defilements. They DO NOT get rid of the anusaya. It is critical to see that one must get rid of the “ditthi anusaya” first: “Conditions for the Four Stages of Nibbāna.’
- Please let me know if anyone has seen him refer to various types of anusaya and abhisankhara. I need to review them to see if there are any explanations of those terms.
The next verse in the link Dosakkhayo provided is probably easier to understand:
“Kathaṁ duvidho paṭiccasamuppādo? Avijjā saṅkhārā taṇhā upādānaṁ—ayaṁ samudayo.56.4Viññāṇaṁ nāmarūpaṁ saḷāyatanaṁ phasso vedanā bhavo jāti maraṇañca—idaṁ dukkhaṁ. Yaṁ pana avijjānirodhā saṅkhāranirodho imāni tappaṭipakkhena dve saccāni. Tasmā paṭiccasamuppādo yena ākārena niddiṭṭho, tena tena niddisitabbo.”
The above verse is about separating the terms in Paticca Samuppada into two categories:
Samudaya (giving rise, the same as hetu): Avijjā, taṇhā, saṅkhārā, upādāna
Dukkha (suffering that can be stopped): Viññāṇa, nāmarūpa, saḷāyatana, phassa, vedanā, bhava, jāti, jarāmaraṇa
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Nissando means “outcome.”
That verse is about separating the terms in Paticca Samuppada into four categories:
Hetu: Avijjā, taṇhā, saṅkhārā, upādāna
Paccaya: Viññāṇa is paccaya for nāmarūpa, that nāmarūpa is paccaya for saḷāyatana, phass, vedanā
Vipāka: Bhava
Nissanda (Outcome): jāti, jarāmaraṇa
Thank you, Lang.
I have edited your post a bit. I took a quick look, and it seems that the segments I selected on the videos for Day 5 and Day 6 could help clarify some issues. I moved the starting points back from where Lang suggested so that one could get a better background.
- I may not be able to comment on these today. Please feel to make comments.
OK. Thanks. I will take a look later today.
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