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1. Regarding #6 of “Saḷāyatana Are Not Sense Faculties“:
I have revised it as follows:
“6. As in the case of the five aggregates, the twelve āyatana are categorized as past, present, and paccuppanna (“present”), as pointed out above.
- That makes sense since the six internal and five external āyatana takes into account the rupakkhandha.
- The sixth external āyatana (dhammā) incorporates the kamma viññāṇa; thus, it can be represented by the viññāṇa aggregate.) Nāmagotta contains all records of the vipāka viññāṇa, and thus, can be represented by the first three mental aggregates.
- Even though nāmagotta are not dhammā, they come to mind as dhammā when we recall them. I have explained that in the forum (but I should write a post to explain it fully.) See comment #40356 (on September 14, 2022, at 2:42 pm) in the thread “Post on ‘Nāmagotta, Bhava, Kamma Bīja, and Mano Loka (Mind Plane)’”
So, now there should not be any discrepancies regarding that.
2. Dosakkhayo wrote next:
“Laydhammafollower said in #44645:
“RūpakKhanda is not stored, it is generated as needed from other four aggregates.
When memory is recalled, Rūpakkhanda is regenerated from four aggregates stored in kamma bhava.
And this process of recalling involves energy. So, that is why dhamma comes to mind as dhammā.”
But lal said in #44649:
“1. Rūpakkhanda is preserved in nāmalōka as namagotta. It is just a record without any energy.
2. So, there are two types of entities in the nāmalōka: (i) dhammā with kammic energy and (ii) namagotta without energy.
– dhammā can “come back” to our minds on their own. That is how kamma vipaka takes place. When the conditions are right, they bring vipaka.”- Hopefully, that is resolved with #1 above.
3. Dosakkhayo wrote next:
“And, Phassa (Contact) – Contact With Pasāda Rupa said:
“Cakkhāyatana Is Cakkhu Pasāda Rupa
3. Cakkhāyatana is not the eyes. The “seeing” takes place in the mind, and the “seat of the mind” is the hadaya vatthu. The image captured by the eyes gets transmitted to the cakkhu pasāda rupa, which transfers the image to the hadaya vatthu.”I think this post says clearly that kammaja kaya is ayatana.”
- No. It does not. Where does it say that?
4. Q1: Rupakkhandha contains paccuppana kammaja kaya? – I think it does not.
- Why not? Any rupa is just registered in the mind even at the moment of seeing, hearing, etc!
- External rupa are made of satara maha bhuta. Yes. You are completely wrong about paccuppana rupa. What is registered in mind is not satara maha bhuta.
5. Q2: Rupakkhandha contains manāyatana?
- No. Any ayatana is not maha bhuta. The hadaya vatthu is made of maha bhuta. But when it is used as manāyatana it is just a state of mind.
I think contemplating the above can provide answers to other questions.
- To emphasize: There are two types of vinnana: vipaka vinnana and kamma vinnana. Kamma vinnana have energy (dhammā.)
- vipaka part of the vinnana aggregate incorporates the first three mental aggregates and thus can be represented by the first three aggregates. That is namagotta.
I just looked at the translation closely. Yes. It can be confusing because he uses “galaxy” to denote a thousand-fold “world system.”
See the side-by-side translation: “Cūḷanikā Sutta (AN 3.80).”
- A “world system” is a single cakkavāla with one star and associated planets. Our Solar system is one.
- At marker 4.3: “cūḷanikā lokadhātu” is a SMALL cluster of a thousand such cakkavāla (incorrectly called a “galaxy.”)
- At marker 5.2: “majjhimikā lokadhātu” is a MEDUIM cluster of a thousand such “cūḷanikā lokadhātu“ (incorrectly called a ” ‘galactic cluster.’”)
- At marker 6.2: “mahāsahassī lokadhātu” is a LARGE cluster of a thousand such “majjhimikā lokadhātu“ (incorrectly called a ” ‘galactic supercluster.’”)
- It is not a good idea to try to match the Buddha’s world systems with the names used by current science. For example, a “galaxy” in current science may have billions of stars like our Sun (i.e., billions of cakkavāla, not just a thousand.) A “mahāsahassī lokadhātu” is within a galaxy. Thus, our “mahāsahassī lokadhātu” is within the Milky Way galaxy.
- The universe has billions of galaxies like our Milky Way galaxy. See “Milky Way“
- Each “mahāsahassī lokadhātu” can have only one Buddha at a time. But there can be Buddhas in other “mahāsahassī lokadhātu” even at this time. The universe is unimaginably vast!
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That is a bit complicated.
The standard PS cycle can be analyzed as the result of 16 sub-cycles! That is actually what happens WITHIN a javana citta. Only a Buddha can “see” that process; we can only see that it must be true. It is a complex analysis.
There was a discussion on it sometime back: “kusala mula PS leads not to rebirth.”
- In a comment on May 27, 2022, at 8:27 pm (#37674) I discussed that briefly.
- So, the verse you quoted above describes one of the earlier steps in the 16-cycle process. I quoted it above without realizing it.
- It is not necessary to go through that analysis.
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Excellent, Jorg. You understood!
You wrote: “There’s no actual “rupa” now in the viññāṇa dhatu. It’s a record of vedana, sañña, saṅkhāra, viññāṇa without energy.”
- Indeed!
Regarding the following part of your comment: “Regarding energy-less records (namagotta) and dhammā (kamma bīja) and the analogy provided by Lal of the flashlight and candle respectively, the following came to mind:;
Let’s say you have a phone with various apps. Some apps give you a notification. You don’t know when these notifications come in. You can’t control them in any way. Although they don’t come in randomly, they seem to do so, nevertheless.Your analogy of an App sending a message/reminder is analogous to a kamma bija (dhammā) bringing “vipaka thoughts” is good.
- Even though we have no DIRECT control over when those can “come back,” we do have some control. Sometimes we make “suitable conditions” for kamma bija to bring vipaka.
- For example, if you go to a bad neighborhood at night, that makes suitable conditions for “getting into trouble.” If you verbally/physically abuse someone, that makes suitable conditions for getting into trouble.
- Those kamma bija are in “storage” or in “anantara.” If you make suitable conditions (samanantara), they can bring their vipaka. See “Anantara and Samanantara Paccayā.”
- However, it does not have to be that way for all vipaka. Some vipaka come whether there are suitable conditions or not. Yet, we can avoid many by “being mindful.” That also involves eating well, exercising regularly, etc.
- P.S. Good kamma bija can be induced to bring their vipaka in many ways. Many recite the “Supreme Qualities of Buddha, Dhamma, Saṅgha,” light candles, etc., before a meditation session. It can get one to the “right mindset.” If you treat others with kindness, that is also setting the background to bring good vipaka, etc.
Yes. I agree that Gödel himself did not pay any attention to the implications of his theory in other areas.
But many, especially philosophers, have discussed the implications of Gödel’s two theorems in other areas, especially for the mind.
- For example, the last reference in the post, “Gödel, Escher, Bach – An Eternal Golden Braid”, by Douglas R. Hofstadter (1979), has been the topic of discussion among philosophers for many years now.
Hello Jaro,
I am happy to see you are interested in the subject. I think no one had commented on it, even though it was one of my earliest posts around 2014/2015 (revised in 2021 to include the two videos.)
- I saw that those two videos got deleted when we recently transferred the website to a new host. I just added the videos.
So, you may want to watch the two videos. Also, have you read the references at the end of the post? Many have discussed the implications of the theorem in fields other than mathematics.
- Could you let me know whether you are a physicist, mathematician, philosopher, etc.? It can help me in formulating my response. As you noted, I am a physicist.
Yes. The appearance of a Buddha is a rare event. As I remember, our solar system (cakkavāla) is one of a 10,000 cakkavāla in a cūḷanikā lokadhātu.
- A Buddha can arise in only one cakkavāla in a cūḷanikā lokadhātu.
- Each cluster of 10,000 cakkavāla is destroyed once in a Maha kappa (eon.) See #2 in “Buddhism and Evolution – Aggañña Sutta (DN 27).”
- There have been periods of 30 eons without a single Buddha!
- The current eon is a special one with 5 Buddhas. But even then, any Buddha Sasana lasts only a minute fraction of a Maha kappa (eon.) See #14 of “Pāramitā and Niyata Vivarana – Myths or Realities?“
If anyone has further information, please comment.
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Yes. Chanda Iddhipada can be taken as “upadana” for Nibbana.
- However, kāmacchanda is connected to craving. Kāmacchanda comes from kāma + iccha + anda, or “being blinded by sense attractions.” Here, “icchā” is liking, and “anda” is blind.
“My mind has been strongly conditioned to link tanha and upadana to Akusala-Mula PS. We now learn that they are neutral words, but it will take time to shake that off.”
- Yes. That is true for many. That is why it is good to connect to “pada nirutti,” I explained above.
Per my comment #44650 above:
I have revised that comment. I am copying and pasting the relevant section from that comment:
- Even in the Kusala-Mula PS, the sense faculties must be used as “āyatana” and not just sense faculties. If only sense faculties are used, there is no CONSCIOUS thinking involved.
The process is explained in “Kusala-Mula Paṭicca Samuppāda.”
- In #5: ““kusala-mūla paccayā saṅkhāro, saṅkhāra paccayā viññāṇaṃ, viññāṇa paccayā nāmarupaṃ, nāmarupa paccayā salāyatanaṃ, salāyatana paccayā phasso, phassa paccayā vedanā, vedanā paccayā pasādo, pasāda paccayā adhimokkho, adhimokkha paccayā bhavo, bhava paccayā jāti, jāti paccayā jarā maraṇaṃ. Evametesaṃ dhammānaṃ samudayo hoti.“
P.S. May 6, 2023: I have revised the post “Kusala-Mula Paṭicca Samuppāda” to add #6 as below.
6. In the above verse, “dhammānaṃ samudayo hoti” refers to four types of “special dhammā“ that arise due to the Kusala-Mūla PS process.
- As we discussed in the post, “What are Rūpa? – Dhammā are Rūpa too!” dhammā means “to bear things in this world.” When one cultivates the Noble Path as an Ariya (Noble Person), one attains four stages magga phala: Sotapanna, Sakadāgāmi, Anāgāmi, and Arahant.
- Dhammā referred to in the above verse are those that “bear” those four magga phala.
The use of the words taṇhā and upādāna in the Kusala-Mula PS is not wrong, even though the words pasāda and adhimokkha are traditionally used.
- Even though some English texts translate taṇhā as “craving” (implying a defiled mind), the word taṇhā implies a neutral sense. It means getting fused or strongly attached. The word taṇhā comes from “thán” meaning “place” + “hā” meaning getting fused/welded or attached (හා වීම in Sinhala).
- In the same way, “upādāna” (“upa” + “ādana” or “pulling close to the mind) has a neutral connotation.
- When I discuss the PS processes involving inert objects, I will show that a tree’s roots get “attached” to the soil to extract water and nutrients. The word taṇhā and upādāna are used there as well.
However, in the “Paṭiccasamuppādavibhaṅga” the words pasāda and adhimokkha are specifically used in Kusala-Mula PS.
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That is a good analysis, LDF.
- However, it can be simplified as just two main factors: (i) kamma bīja/kamma viññāṇa, (ii) suitable conditions for a given kamma bīja to bring its fruit. This latter is “samanantara paccaya“: “Anantara and Samanantara Paccayā.”
OK. The Thero did say that, but it must be a slip-up.
- Does he continue to explain it that way? May be I need to watch the whole video.
- If it is Kusala-Mula PS, the terms should be pasāda and adhimokkha and NOT tanha and upadana.
Jorg: Can you give the time on the video where “tanha and upadana” are mentioned regarding the Kusala-Mula PS?
You asked, “Is he referring to pasāda and adhimokkha as described in the kusala-mula PS?”
- He must be. May be the translator made a mistake. I don’t think Waharaka Thero would.
Yes. LDM’s comments are correct too.
- Even in the Kusala-Mula PS, the sense faculties must be used as “āyatana” and not just sense faculties. If only sense faculties are used, there is no CONSCIOUS thinking involved.
The process is explained in “Kusala-Mula Paṭicca Samuppāda.”
- In #5: ““kusala-mūla paccayā saṅkhāro, saṅkhāra paccayā viññāṇaṃ, viññāṇa paccayā nāmarupaṃ, nāmarupa paccayā salāyatanaṃ, salāyatana paccayā phasso, phassa paccayā vedanā, vedanā paccayā pasādo, pasāda paccayā adhimokkho, adhimokkha paccayā bhavo, bhava paccayā jāti, jāti paccayā jarā maraṇaṃ. Evametesaṃ dhammānaṃ samudayo hoti.“
P.S. May 6, 2023: I have revised the post “Kusala-Mula Paṭicca Samuppāda” to add #6 as below.
6. In the above verse, “dhammānaṃ samudayo hoti” refers to four types of “special dhammā“ that arise due to the Kusala-Mūla PS process.
- As we discussed in the post, “What are Rūpa? – Dhammā are Rūpa too!” dhammā means “to bear things in this world.” When one cultivates the Noble Path as an Ariya (Noble Person), one attains four stages magga phala: Sotapanna, Sakadāgāmi, Anāgāmi, and Arahant.
- Dhammā referred to in the above verse are those that “bear” those four magga phala.
Yes. The question by Jorg gets to the heart of the issue of recalling a memory.
- That is emphasized by LDM: “The mystery is in mechanism of recalling memory.”
I am happy to hear those comments. I tried to give the clues in #6 of the recent post “Salāyatana Are Not Sense Faculties.”
- The sixth external āyatana (dhammā) incorporates the four mental aggregates. Nāmagotta contains all records of the four mental aggregates. Even though nāmagotta are not dhammā, they come to mind as dhammā when we recall them. I have explained that in the forum (but I should write a post to explain it fully.) See comment #40356 (on September 14, 2022, at 2:42 pm) in the thread “Post on ‘Nāmagotta, Bhava, Kamma Bīja, and Mano Loka (Mind Plane)’
The following is the content in that comment #40356:
1. Rūpakkhanda is preserved in nāmalōka as namagotta. It is just a record without any energy.
2. So, there are two types of entities in the nāmalōka: (i) dhammā with kammic energy and (ii) namagotta without energy.
– dhammā can “come back” to our minds on their own. That is how kamma vipaka takes place. When the conditions are right, they bring vipaka.
– namagotta CAN NOT come back on their own. If we want to recall something, we must try to recall that particular memory. That requires a bit more explanation. I will try to explain it simply because it is crucial to understand.3. How do we recall memories?
– When we try to recall a past event, the mind SENDS OUT a request to nāmalōka or viññāṇa dhātu.
– Depending on the strength of that “signal” sent out, it MAY reflect that particular memory back to the mind. If the strength is enough, it is captured by the mind via “mananca paticca dhammeca uppajjati mano vinnanam.” Thus, it comes back as a dhammā because it gained energy from the signal that the mind sent out.
– Let me give an analogy.Suppose we enter a dark room in a dark house with a chair sitting in a corner. We cannot see the chair or anything else in that room. That is the analogy of a namagotta that we are trying to recall.
– Now, if we had a flashlight, we could turn it on and direct it to the chair. Now, that light will bounce back from the chair, and we will be able to see it.
– That light beam from the flashlight is analogous to the “mind signal” sent out to nāmalōka in #3 above.Suppose we enter the same dark room where a small lighted candle is sitting in a corner.
– We can see that lighted candle without the aid of a flashlight.
– Light from the candle itself is enough for us to see it.
– That lighted candle is like dhammā can “come back” to our minds on their own (see #2)*******
Is that clear? Please feel to ask questions. Understanding this will help immensely.
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