[Lal]

Jorg has revised the document:

“True Ānāpānasati & Satipaṭṭhāna (Vipassana) – Version 1.2“

• Please make comments so that the document can be made better. Such efforts help everyone.
• Thank you for sharing your thoughts and progress, Jorg. 

Also, I thought it would be illuminating to include part of Jorg’s email with this new attachment:

“It’s actually just the introduction that’s (partly) about my own progress. My intention wasn’t even to share my own progress but to make it clear to the reader that, despite the benefits I received from that technique, I left it behind for good. You don’t easily leave behind something good, so it may encourage one to read further.

The rest of the pdf  (98% or so) is just about the dhamma and how inconsistent that technique is, explained through the dhamma, e.g., what the real meaning of Tilakkhana is, what anapana is and why it can’t be breath, what Satipatthana is and why it cannot be observing sensations, prerequisites for a Sotapanna, why PS is essential to understand, etc.
Perhaps the table of contents could give you a better view of it.

The one chapter towards the end, which was part of the discussion, I have reworded it in such a way that it’s clearer for the reader. It’s mostly aimed at the more advanced practitioner of that method due to questions that may still arise among them up until that point. “

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LayDhammaFollower, Jorg

[Lal]

Yes. I just corrected it. Thank you!

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LayDhammaFollower

[Lal]

We FIRST need to see whether the assumption is valid, i.e., to what extent does a recipient take on the donor’s characteristics?

I asked the Bing Chatbot for references, and it gave three (all before 2012):

“Can An Organ Transplant Change A Recipient’s Personality? Cell Memory Theory Affirms ‘Yes’“

“Transplants, Cellular Memory, and Reincarnation” (I do not want to join Researchgate to get a pdf. If someone has a copy, please email it to me: [email protected])

“Memory transference in organ transplant recipients“

At least according to the Bing Chatbot, there are no recent references. So, this is only a conjecture at this time. I don’t want to spend time on it.

• If there is further evidence, please post. 

[Lal]

#1. “There is nothing to which that gati belongs to. It is due to defiled gati, mind behaves as if it is entity right?”

I didn’t say anything specifically because sometimes it is not easy to convey ideas in words.

• We could say that “gati belongs to a person.”  But those gati keep changing. 
• Another way to say it: “a person exists in this world” until attaining Arahanthood. After Arahanthood, it is just waiting for the body (which is a vipaka) to exhaust its energy and die. Until then, there will still be some suffering due to the physical body. Once the physical body dies, that is the end of suffering.

#3 and #4 are fine. 

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LayDhammaFollower

[Lal]

I have not looked in the Tipitaka, but it is a fairly standard interpretation.

• It could be in “Buddha Abhidhamma – Ultimate Science,” by Mehm Tin Mon.
• May be someone else can provide better references. I don’t have the time to look right now.

[Lal]

Yes. Your analysis is correct. 

It can be analyzed in different ways too. Also, any analysis can go to deeper and deeper levels. That is why the Buddha said Paticca Samuppada is deeper than the deepest ocean. The deeper one goes, the more refined the picture that emerges.

For example, “lobha gati” can be divided into many different aspects. Some may have “lobha gati” for food (tastes), smells, sights, sex, etc. 

• Such “lobha gati” may not “come to the surface” if the arammana is not strong enough and may stay hidden as “anusaya.” Thus, even if a small bribe may not be tempting, a larger one could. 
• One removes strong defiled gati arising from “ditthi anusaya” at the Sotapanna stage. That is enough to “not be tempted” to engage in apayagami deeds.

As I said previously, real Vipassana is to contemplate such things. That is when the “unfruitful/dangerous nature” of this world of 31 realms (anicca, dukkha, anatta) sinks into the mind, and various layers of gati/anusaya start melting away. It cannot be done by sheer willpower! Of course, it helps a lot to stay away from sensory pleasures as much as possible. It would be impossible to avoid being a drug addict if one keeps associating with drug addicts, for example.

• Eventually, no gati/anusaya will be left at the Arahant stage. Thus, at the moment of death, an Arahant will not grasp “upadana“) any sensory input that is coming to the mind as a kamma vipaka.
• Many arammana can be mind-pleasing. But they all have undesired and un-envisioned consequences. But similar to a fish that cannot see the dangers hidden in bait, average humans cannot see the suffering hidden in sensory pleasures.
• Only by understanding the Four Noble Truths/Paticca Samuppada/Tilakkhana will one start seeing the “suffering hidden in sensual pleasures.”

P.S. LDF’s second comment on my statement: “This is what I was trying to say in bahiya suttā thread. It is due to adding san to sensory experience, “feeling/perception of me/mine” arises. San is there due to vipallāsa.”

Bahiya Sutta points out a different aspect. It explains how one becomes aware of a given sensory input. This specifically relates to Sakkaya Ditthi.

• It is not that “a person” sees a tree. When one looks at a tree, one does not capture the “whole picture of a tree” in one step (which would be the case if there is a “person seeing a tree” and may even be hearing a sound also at the same time. 
• Seeing, hearing, etc., are just mechanical processes. A citta vithi can grasp only one part of that tree. Within a second, the eye takes many such pictures (just like a video camera taking multiple static pictures in a second). Then the mind puts it all together to get a “full picture” of the tree. But since it happens so fast, it gives the illusion that one sees a tree in “one shot.”

Let me copy and paste the following section from my comment on April 5, 2023, at 11:32 am above:

• The working of the mind is a mechanical process. It just responds to external stimuli (sensory inputs) mechanically. The response is according to the gati one has at that time. This is why the Buddha said that there is no “me” (un unchanging soul/atman type entity seeing, hearing at the same time, and responding to those sensory inputs.
• The running of citta vithi, once attached to a stimulus, would have gone in that direction if we did not have brains with a fully-developed neocortex. (Note: Animals, even those with small brains, do not have such a break. They just continue with the initial response. See “Triune Brain: How the Mind Rewires the Brain via Meditation/Habits.” I may need to revise this post; even though I made some revisions recently, I don’t think I read through it carefully. )
• The brain takes about a hundredth of a second to process the input, which pauses the uncontrolled progression of citta vithi and, thus, uncontrolled actions. It gives us the time to be mindful and stop pursuing sensory input.
• Again, posts like “Seeing Is a Series of ‘Snapshots,” “Brain – Interface between Mind and Body,” and those in the “Essential Abhidhamma – The Basics” section explain various aspects related to this issue.  

It may take time, but it is worthwhile to read, contemplate, and understand that “seeing is just a collection of brief seeings.” (which emphasizes that there is no “soul/atman” that is “seeing” that tree in one shot. But of course, as long as one has not removed ditthi anusaya, that is one’s view.)

– That is the meaning of the verse, “ditthe dittha mattan bhavissati.” That verse in often incorrectly translated as “seeing is just seeing,” which does not make much sense.

– Here, “mattan” means “a brief moment/event.” Seeing a tree takes many such events. That is confirmed by modern science too. The eyes makes “saccadic eye movements” to capture different parts of an object. Google/Bing “saccadic eye movements” and read the articles and videos. 

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LayDhammaFollower

[Lal]

Yes. That process is described in the post, “Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda for Vipāka Viññāṇa”; especially see #15.

• Then read this thread.

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TripleGemStudent

[Lal]

Yes. This is a meaningful discussion. 

• The working of the mind is a mechanical process. It just responds to external stimuli (sensory inputs) mechanically. The response is according to the gati one has at that time. This is why the Buddha said that there is no “me” (un unchanging soul/atman type entity seeing, hearing at the same time, and responding to those sensory inputs.
• The running of citta vithi, once attached to a stimulus, would have gone in that direction if we did not have brains with a fully-developed neocortex. (Note: Animals, even those with small brains, do not have such a break. They just continue with the initial response. See “Triune Brain: How the Mind Rewires the Brain via Meditation/Habits.” I may need to revise this post; even though I made some revisions recently, I don’t think I read through it carefully. )
• The brain takes about a hundredth of a second to process the input, which pauses the uncontrolled progression of citta vithi and, thus, uncontrolled actions. It gives us the time to be mindful and stop pursuing sensory input.
• Again, posts like “Seeing Is a Series of ‘Snapshots,” “Brain – Interface between Mind and Body,” and those in the “Essential Abhidhamma – The Basics” section explain various aspects related to this issue.  

[Lal]

OK. Good.

I want to clarify two points based on the above discussion and that on the other thread, “Post on ‘Saṅkhāra – An Introduction’”.

1. Bottom line: Mano sankhara can be abhisankhara. However, mano sankhara cannot bring future rebirths via “janaka kamma.” 

• I revised my previous interpretation based on the evidence I discussed in both threads. 
• In particular, it assumes that the first two javana citta in a citta vithi have only mano sankhara. This bit of information came from a discourse by Waharaka Thero. I have not seen citta vithi discussed to that depth in the Tipitaka. If we find a direct reference in the Tipitaka, we may need to revise it again.
• Thanks to Dosakkhayo and LDF for bringing the issue to focus.

2. Kammic energy is not created in a single citta vithi but via millions of them. 

• As mentioned above, one post describing this process is “Seeing Is a Series of ‘Snapshots.’”
• For example, an object is “seen” after the brain processes over ten “scans” of that object. Each scan may take a hundredth of a second (these data from modern science.) Millions of citta vithi process each such snapshot.
• Therefore, kammic energy “builds up” gradually over millions of citta vithis within a second. Of course, we perceive it to happen in “one shot.”
• Writing down these details in a post of 2-3 pages is impossible.

Feel free to ask questions on either of the above two issues. 

 

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namo0804, dosakkhayo

[Lal]

Excellent!

[Lal]

Yes. They are correct.

• But I want to stress the importance of getting rid of sakkaya ditthi by realizing that the working of the mind is a mechanical process. I read your comment on the other thread, “Post on ‘Saṅkhāra – An Introduction’” and it seems that you have.

Let me copy and paste a part of my comment on April 3, 2023, at 8:31 am for the benefit of all:

1. Bahiya understood that there was no “person” seeing, hearing, etc.

• Seeing, hearing, etc., are just “processes,” and there is no unchanging “person” (say, Lal) seeing, hearing, etc. (P.S. Now, don’t take this to mean “Lal does not exist.” But the way he responds to a sensory event now is not the same as he would have some years back.  There is no “unchanging essence in Lal.” Once Lal stops responding to ANY sensory event with even a trace of lobha, dosa, and moha (avijja), he becomes an Arahant. Then, upon death, “Lal” will not be reborn anywhere among the 31 realms.  That will be the end of suffering for “Lal.” This is related to #2 below.)
• For example, see “Seeing Is a Series of ‘Snapshots’”
• Understanding that helps get rid of sakkaya ditthi.

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namo0804

[Lal]

1. It is essential to understand how kamma formation starts with mano sankhara and gradually “ramps up” to stronger levels of “kammic potentials.”

1. Mano sankhara are defined as “vedana and sanna.” Here, only ditthi and wrong perceptions (about an arammana) arise according to that arammana and one’s gati. It is only a mindset—no vitakka/vicara at this stage. 
2. Vitakka/vicara arising at the vaci sankhara stage means “internal deliberations” about what to do about that arammana. Now, one starts to use one’s own words to deliberate. But no words are coming out, i.e., no speech.
3. In the next stage, the kammic generation is stronger, and words CAN come out. This is the second level of vaci sankhara. 
4. Kammic energy generation is most intense at the kaya sankhara stage, where bodily movements become possible. 

2. All vipaka cittas have mano sankhara. Vipaka can turn to kamma generation at the votthapana stage in a citta vithi.

• That process is described in the post, “Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda for Vipāka Viññāṇa”; see #15. See my comment on April 3, 2023 at 12:52 pm above. I have looked into the issue discussed there, and let me paste that comment and make the revisions:

3. Up to the V (votthapana) citta, all cittas are vipaka citta. They only have only mano sankhara.

• At the votthapana citta, a decision is made regarding how to respond to the sensory input. If attachment happened (due to one’s gati), then seven javana cittas run to respond accordingly.
• The first two of those javana cittas only have mano sankhara. That means vitakka/vicara have not arisen yet.
• Abhisankhara accumulation (that can bring vipaka in future lives)  starts with vitakka/vicara in the third javana citta. In the fourth javana citta speech becomes possible.
• Then kaya abhisankhara generation is with the fifth javana citta.
• Like a runner starting slowly, speeding up, and then slowing down at the end, javana cittas become weaker after the fifth. Thus, sixth and seventh javana cittas are progressively weaker.
• Thus, vaci and kaya abhisankhara are mostly associated with the javana citta #3 through #5 and weaken in #6 and #7.
• Kammic energy created in the first javana citta can bring vipaka in this life only. But #2 through #6 can bring vipaka in future lives, and #7 can bring vipaka only in the next life.
• That means javana citta #2 is strong enough to bring vipaka in future lives. But it is NOT ENOUGH to bring a rebirth (called “janaka kamma.”) Thus, kammic energy generated in javana citta #2 with mano sankhara can ONLY bring vipaka DURING A LIFE in future lives, i.e., it cannot give rise to a rebirth.

4. I will rewrite the above post by breaking it into at least two posts in the future. But I just wanted to state that there are no contradictions. Feel free to ask questions if not clear. It is easier to convey ideas in a discussion. Then I can see where the “hang up” is.

5. As I mentioned in another thread, “Bahiya Sutta and Creation of Sensuality in mind,” it is essential to understand that the mind’s working is a mechanical process. There is no “unchanging person” accumulating kamma. It is a process that will continue until one can see how that process takes place. That will help get rid of sakkaya ditthi.

• As I discussed in two comments in that thread, the post “Seeing Is a Series of ‘Snapshots’” helps get rid of sakkaya ditthi.
• Of course, such an Abhidhamma analysis is not necessary to get rid of sakkaya ditthi. It is one way to get it done.

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LayDhammaFollower

[Lal]

Abhidhamma can be tricky due to the following reason.

Most of the fundamental FACTS about citta/cetasika/citta vithi are directly discernible ONLY to the mind of a Buddha. Not even Ven. Sariputta could ascertain those without the Buddha explaining to him. Once the Buddha laid out the basic framework for him, Ven. Sriputta and bhikkhus in his lineage were able to describe the bigger picture in detail. 

• For example, how many cittas are in a citta vithi, and what are the seven universal cetasikas, etc.? Only a Buddha can see such things. Remember that a citta vithi with 17 cittas lasts less than a billionth of a second. No one but a Buddha can directly see the sequence of cittas in a citta vithi!
• What I summarized in the above comment needed to be put together by piecing together bits and pieces from different places in the Tipitaka or Waharaka Theor’s Discourses. In rare cases, he may recite a wrong number in a discourse, even by accident. Thus, we must keep checking and ensuring it all fits together without contradictions. 
• However, it is a tedious task since there is no place in the Tipitaka with all that information in one place.
• Of course, we do have a mostly consistent picture. Now we are down to pinning down whether vaci sankhara starts in the second or third javana citta.

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LayDhammaFollower

[Lal]

“until now, I’ve corresponded tanha to mano sankhara and upadana to vaci and kaya sankhara in my mind.”

That statement is mostly correct. But after upadana step, javana cittas start with mano sankhara and get stronger before transitioning to vaci and kaya sankhara. Hopefully, the following will clarify.

In the post, “Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda for Vipāka Viññāṇa” see #15.

Up to the V (votthapana) citta, all cittas are vipaka citta. They only have only mano sankhara.

• At the votthapana citta, a decision is made regarding how to respond to the sensory input. If attachment happened (due to one’s gati), then seven javana cittas run to respond accordingly.
• The first two of those javana cittas only have mano sankhara. That means vitakka/vicara have not arisen yet.
• Abhisankhara accumulation (that can bring vipaka in future lives)  starts with vitakka/vicara in the third javana citta. Then kaya abhisankhara generation is with the fifth javana citta.
• Thus, vaci and kaya abhisankhara are mostly associated with the javana citta #3 through #5 and weaken in #6 and #7.
• I just realized something that I need to look into. Kammic energy created in the first javana citta can bring vipaka in this life only. But #2 through #6 can bring vipaka in future lives, and #7 can bring vipaka only in the next life. That means javana citta #2 is strong enough to bring vipaka in future lives. Can that be due to mano sankhara? I will look into that.

• It is time to rewrite the above post by breaking it into at least two posts. A lot of information needs to be added to make it clear and consistent.

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LayDhammaFollower

[Lal]

“The perspective that I had about bahiya suttā was that Bahiya understood that adding san to  sensory experience is what causes dukkhā.”

It is more than that. 

• One adds “san” to the sensory experience because of the wrong view of “me” and “mine.” That is sakkaya ditthi.
• Of course, the perception (sanna) of “me” and “mine” reduces gradually and goes away entirely only at the Arahant stage.

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namo0804, LayDhammaFollower

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