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Those dictionary terms are not far off.
- subha: auspicious is better. That means it can mostly bring benefits.
- sukha : the opposite of dukha or suffering.
Tilakkhana (anicca, dukkha, anatta) are characteristics of nature. One could say asubha could/should be included there too. Of course, the word Tilakkhana is not in the Tipitaka; at least, I have not seen it in the Tipitaka.
- However, many suttas discuss only anicca, dukkha, anatta, and mutual relationships among them.
Asubha is always mentioned (together with anicca, dukkha, and anatta) under vipallasa (mental confusion.)
Thank you, DanielSt.
I watched a bit of it at 1:33:20 time. Venerable explains it well.
- “Me” is there because some experiences are “enjoyable.” So, the effort is to get more of such “enjoyable experiences.”
- Such efforts involve immoral activities (at least on some occasions), leading to trouble in the future (in terms of kamma vipaka.)
Lang wrote: “The Bāhiya Sutta says something like: “seeing is just a trace of seeing, hearing is just a trace of hearing, …” (“diṭṭhe diṭṭhamattaṃ bhavissati, sute sutamattaṃ bhavissati, …”
- That statement is a bit deeper.
What I wrote, ”The apple that you saw is NOT the same as the apple itself. It is just an image of the apple captured by your eyes” is just a (initial) part of that deeper statement to Bahiya.
- Mine is a simpler statement. But you can get the idea if you think about how we see an object in more detail. The light must bring an image of the object (say, a person) to our eyes. That does not happen “in one shot,” like taking a picture with a camera. Within a split second, the eyes capture several images (from different parts of the person). The brain processes all that information and sends those to the hadaya vatthu in several “data packets.” It is the mind that “puts together” all those different frames and makes a “unified picture of a person X.”
- The “image of X” that arises in the mind is a “mind construction.”
- In addition to “making a coherent picture of a person,” the mind also adds to that “picture” our pre-existing biases of X.
- The point is that what we experience is BASED ON the physical body of X. But what we experience is purely a mental construct. It has built-in sanna (recognition, not only as a person but also as a friend or foe) and vedana (somanassa/domanassa/neutral).
We can make a rough connection to the verse in the Bahiya as follows:
- Our biases (seeing X as a friend, foe, etc.) are based on the defilements in our minds. That itself originates from the idea of “I am seeing X.”
- But, in reality, it is only a “seeing event” that happens with a series of “snapshots.” (There is no “seer” in the ultimate sense, which is what Bahiya understood and instantly attained Arahanthood!) Each snapshot goes to the past before the next one arrives. It is the mind that “puts together all such events that are already in the past” and presents a “picture of X” as a rupakkhandha (aggregate of several snapshots AND also taking into account our past experiences with X). Amazingly, the mind can do all that in a split second.
- The discussion in #1 and #2 of the following post could be helpful: “Ārammaṇa Plays a Critical Role in a Sensory Event.”
Regarding the “data system analogy” of Lang:
It is a simple analogy that cannot be taken too literally.
- The data must be “stored” in a physical device, I guess. In that sense, it involves a device in the physical world. That is why analogies are not perfect, especially when we try to imagine a “mental process.” But Lang’s description of retrieval is a good idea.
- The “storage of namagotta” as the three mental aggregates (in vinnana dhatu) does not have a perfect analogy in the rupa loka.
- Also, note that only rupas (above the suddhatthaka stage) are in the “rupa loka.” Namagotta and dhammā (with energies below the suddhatthaka stage) are in vinnana dhatu or “nama loka.” See #4 through #6 in “Rupa and Rupakkhandha, Nāma and Nāmagotta” We cannot analyze the characteristics of vinnana dhatu or “nama loka” with terminology/examples in “rupa loka.”
- This is a complex subject. It is not necessary to understand it to attain Nibbana. I discussed it because many ask, “Where are memories stored?” OR “How can kamma bring their vipaka? Where are those kammic energies stored?” etc. Buddha Dhamma is the ultimate science. Modern science is far behind.
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Thank you, TGS.
To quote: “Pali vyākaraṇa never became a courtly discipline in reform-era Sri Lanka, though it did develop associations with political power within the Saṅgha’s own monastic hierarchy.16 During the reform era, for instance, all the monks to hold the high office of ‘grandmaster’ were grammarians.17 The forest-monk and Sanskrit grammarian, Diṁbulāgala Kassapa, held the position of leader of the Saṅgha during the 1165 reforms, though he was not referred to as grandmaster.18 Sāriputta, his pupil, was the first to be acknowledged officially with this title and early in his career authored a Sanskrit grammatical commentary, the Cāndrapañcikālaṅkāra (‘Ornament to the extensive commentary on Candra’s grammar’).19 Our Pali grammarian Moggallāna subsequently attained the position of grandmaster, presumably after Sāriputta’s death.20 Saṅgharakkhita then ascended to the role in the reign of Vijayabāhu III (1232–6), administered monastic reforms and composed a commentary on Moggallāna’s grammar during his tenure too.21 His pupil, Medhaṅkara, author of a grammatical handbook, the Payogasiddhi (‘Practical construction’), and a member of the Diṁbulāgala forest fraternity, succeeded him in turn and led further monastic reforms during the reign of Parākramabāhu II in 1266.22“
- Sanskrit heavily influenced Theravada from the rise of Mahayana just 500 years after the Buddha. Buddhaghosa’s Visuddhimagga around 450 CE was also a critical influence.
- It is unbelievable that those bhikkhus completely ignored Buddha’s advice, not even to translate the Tipitaka into Sanskrit. May be they were unaware of the passages in the Vinaya Pitaka making that prohibition. See #13 of “Misinterpretation of Anicca and Anatta by Early European Scholars.”
- Even the Sinhala language has been heavily altered with Sanskrit words. It is a miracle that the Tipitaka survived in its pure form. Even though relatively few in number, there were enough dedicated bhikkhus who kept rewriting the Tipitaka on ola leaves every hundred years. It must have been a continuous writing process since it is not easy to prepare and write on those leaves, and they degrade within a hundred years or so. See #5 of “Preservation of the Dhamma.”
OK. Thank you.
I have revised them as follows.
4. Thus, “seeing” is a cakkhu viññāṇa (a thought.) We see that apple when a cakkhu viññāṇa arises in our minds. This is a fundamental fact, but it is good to clarify it. When we see that apple, a thought arises in our mind saying, “it is an apple.”
- The apple that you saw is NOT the same as the apple itself. It is just an image of the apple captured by your eyes. “Seeing” happens in your mind.
- Every time you see an object, that “image” goes into the “rupa aggregate” or “rupakkhandha.” However, that rupakkhandha is NOT preserved directly, i.e., as an image. When you recall a memory, you “regenerate that mental image” in your mind. This is discussed in detail in “Rupa, Dhammā (Appaṭigha Rupa) and Nāmagotta (Memories) (with chart #14).”
- There is no record of rupakkhandha (aggregate of forms) in the rupa loka! Memories of “rupa experienced in the past” are recalled from viññāṇa dhātu, as explained in the above post. Rupa and rupakkhandha are different entities.
6. Each event that we experience has a rupa, vedana, saññā, saṅkhāra, and viññāṇa associated with it. For example, when we see an apple, the associated rupa is the MENTAL IMAGE of the apple (which becomes part of rupakkhandha.)
- That event also has a vedana, i.e., we know that we saw that apple. The associated saññā is the recognition of the object as an apple. Then we may generate saṅkhāra about it; for example, we may be to decide to eat it (as a vaci saṅkhāra.) Then the viññāṇa encompasses all those AND any associated plan (to eat it.) All five of those automatically added to the corresponding AGGREGATES (COLLECTIONS), i.e., rupakkhandha, vedanakkhandha, saññākkhandha, saṅkhārakkhandha, and viññāṇakkhandha.
- And the four mental components get added to his/her nāmagotta.
- Thus it is critical to see that each person’s five aggregates (pañcakkhandha) are THEIR OWN. One’s pañcakkhandha is one’s whole world! One has experienced all of it.
- To emphasize, only the four mental components are preserved in the nāma loka. The rupa loka has only “material things,” Thus, rupakkhandha is not preserved in the rupa loka. The rupa component (the associated mental image) is “re-generated” only when one recalls that past event from viññāṇa dhātu. See “Rupa, Dhammā (Appaṭigha Rupa) and Nāmagotta (Memories) (with chart #14).”
In the future, please refer to the post (and bullet #) in question, as you did above. That will avoid confusion.
TGS, Tobias: I think it was the two of you who quoted the following:
“…rupakkhandha is NOT preserved.“
- Neither of you stated where I wrote that. I may have, but it must have been unintentional. I explained that in my above comment.
I need to fix it. So, please let me know in which post (bullet #) it shows up. Thank you!
Hello Tobi,
The Sinhala word for ākāsa (space) is ආකාස NOT අංක.
Apo, tejo, vayo, and pathavi are the INITIAL bhūta stages. They are called පඨවි, ආපෝ, තේජෝ, වායෝ (pronounced the same as Pali).
As we know, āpo, tejo, vayo, and pathavi are always “mixed.” For example, no pure “āpo” exists. Same for the others.
- When highly condensed, āpo, tejo, vayo, and pathavi become water, fire, wind, and earth (solids). Each has all other elements, but water, fire, wind, and earth (solids) predominantly have āpo, tejo, vayo, and pathavi, respectively.
- The Sinhala words for water, fire, wind, and earth (solids) are වතුර, ගින්න, සුළඟ, පස් (or පොලව). ākāsa (space) is ආකාස.
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Yes, Tobi. It would be the same idea. Thank you.
Tobias wrote: “I do not understand how you can say : “…rupakkhandha is NOT preserved.“
- I don’t know how many times I have to keep saying this. I NEVER meant to say, “…rupakkhandha is NOT preserved.“
- As I explained in my last comment above:
” It would be better to modify the last part of it as “Thus, rupakkhandha is NOT preserved DIRECTLY“ (meaning it is not preserved as a direct image.)
- But the preservation of the mental aggregates guarantees that it is preserved.
- Still, we need to send some energy to recall it, as explained in the new post, “Rupa, Dhammā (Appaṭigha Rupa) and Nāmagotta (Memories) (with chart #14).”
If the statement, “…rupakkhandha is NOT preserved.“ appears somewhere, it needs to be revised. Please let me know in which post (bullet #) it shows up. I will revise it as above. If it is there, it is only an unintended error.
Yes. I was thinking about removing this part of the table.
P.S. Seng Kiat agreed that removing that part of the table is better. I just removed it. Thanks to both Seng Kiat and Tobias for your efforts in improving the website.
That is correct.
- The “image” itself (of an experience) is not preserved; that would require energy. All necessary “mental factors associated with that past image” is maintained in vinnana dhatu.
- Even scientists are not aware of this concept. They believe all memories are in neural connections in the brain. But that cannot explain memories from past lives or out-of-body experiences like NDE (near-death experiences.) There is a vast amount of indirect evidence for both.
The point is the following:
1. Namagotta (memories) are preserved in vinnana dhatu as the mental aggregates. They don’t have energies but records. We need to make an effort to recall them. When we do, and if successful, those memories return to the mind as dhammā. Then the corresponding rupakkhandha is re-created in our minds. Thus, rupakkhandha is NOT preserved DIRECTLY as an “image.”
- Rupakkhandha is preserved in vinnana dhatu as metal aggregates.
- The recent post “Rupa, Dhammā (Appaṭigha Rupa) and Nāmagotta (Memories) (with chart #14)” explains that in detail.
TGS wrote:
This is where I need some help with clarifying. Recent reply mentions:
Hopefully, you can confirm that the rupakkhandha is “all mental” and is defined by only the four mental aggregates (but only the first three are enough.) “Thus, in this case, namagotta is purely rupakkhandha”
My reply: Per my general remarks above, I have revised the above statement there as follows:
- Hopefully, you can confirm that the rupakkhandha is “all mental” and is defined by only the four mental aggregates (but only the first three are enough.) Thus, in this case, namagotta is enough to define rupakkhandha.
TGS wrote:
#2.
Having reviewed materials from other PD posts and this thread. It has led me to believe that rupakkhandha is not preserved (stored?) in the namaloka as rupakkhandha but as the 4 mental aggregates.
My answer: Your above statement is correct.
- #9 you referred to is also correct. To quote: “9. It is critical to realize that a “rupa” cannot be stored in the viññāṇa dhatu. Only a “mental imprint” of a rupa gets stored. That “mental imprint” is in the four “mental aggregates.”
I am not sure from where you quoted the following. It would be better to modify the last part of it as “Thus, rupakkhandha is NOT preserved DIRECTLY“:
- “To emphasize, only the four mental components are preserved in the nāma loka. The rupa loka has only “material things,” Thus, rupakkhandha is NOT preserved.
Jorg is correct.
There is a jivitindriya rūpa AND jivitindriya cetasika.
- All living beings have the jivitindriya rūpa.
- However, jivitindriya cetasika rises only with a citta.
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Yes. That is correct.
- An Arahant would see, hear, etc., but not have ayatana since they don’t have anusaya or gati. Thus, there will be no abhisankhara generated based on seeing, hearing, etc.
Very good, Jorg. You caught one of the very few instances where Wharaka Thero stated something not quite right. That is one of the early discourses, and I had also noticed that.
1. An Arahant does not follow either kusala-mula PS or akusala-mula PS. That was a misstatement.
2. According to “pada nirutti” āneñjābhisaṅkhāra are kammically neutral; thus, in that sense, āneñjābhisaṅkhāra are kammically neutral. However, the term ” āneñjābhisaṅkhāra” for the “arupavacara samapatti” got stuck even during the time of the Buddha.
- I explained that in #3 of “Sankhāra, Kamma, Kamma Bīja, Kamma Vipāka.” Let me reproduce that below.
3. Abhisaṅkhāra are three kinds, as mentioned above:
- Some actions lead to bad consequences during life and also to bad rebirths in the four lowest realms (apāyā). These are “apunnābhi saṅkhāra” or immoral deeds: apuñña abhi sañ khāra.
- Actions that lead to good consequences in life and also to good rebirths are called “punnābhi saṅkhāra” or meritorious deeds; these lead to birth in good realms (human, deva, and the rūpa lōkas), thus avoiding rebirth in bad realms where one could get trapped for many eons. Thus it is important to accumulate punnābhi saṅkhāra: puñña abhi sañ khāra.
- When one cultivates “lōkiya jhānā” or mundane higher meditative states (arūpa jhāna leading to rebirth in the highest four arūpa lōka realms), via breath meditation, for example, one can be reborn in the four higher Brahma worlds. These also prolong sansāra, and are called “āneñjābhi saṅkhāra“: āneñja abhi sañ khāra.
- It is interesting to note that “āneñja” means “no more rebirths” and thus “permanent”: the ancient yogis (including Alara Kalama and Uddakarama Putta) thought these realms have infinite lifetimes and equated the births there to the “ultimate release.” Of course, the Buddha discovered that those also have finite lifetimes, even though extremely long, lasting eons (billions of years). That is how the term came to be associated (incorrectly) with “āneñjābhi saṅkhāra.” But that is how it is used even in the Tipiṭaka. “Paṭiccasamuppāda Vibhaṅga” explains the step “avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra” as, “Tattha katame avijjā paccayā saṅkhārā? Puññābhisaṅkhāro, apuññābhisaṅkhāro, āneñjābhisaṅkhāro.”
- Here those yogis can temporarily suppress all desires for kāma lōka and rupa lōka existences. However, since they had not comprehended the anicca nature, they still have “hidden avijjā” or “avijjā anusaya.”
In later discourses, Waharaka Thero explained the above regarding āneñjābhisaṅkhāra.
P.S. Also see “Rebirths Take Place According to Abhisaṅkhāra.”
