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Jittananto asked: “I have a question regarding a statement I read. It mentioned that bodhisattvas who lie cannot become Lord Buddhas.”
- A Bodhisatta is not a Buddha. He is on the way to become a Buddha.
- Our Bodhisatta was born (as Jotipāla) during the previous Buddha Sasana of Buddha Kassapa (there were three Buddhas in this Maha Kappa before Buddha Gotama; see “Mahāpadāna Sutta (DN 14)“). His friend Ghaṭīkāra tried to take Jotipāla to meet Buddha Kassapa, but Jotipāla refused and insulted Buddha Kassapa. That was one reason why our Bodhisatta had to endure six years of hardships before attaining the Buddhahood.
- That account is in the “Ghaṭikāra Sutta (MN 81).”
@Tobias G: A Bodhisatta does not know about Vipassana until the night of attaining Buddhahood.
- It is impossible for us to figure out how a Bodhisatta works his way to Buddhahood. It is a natural and lengthy process.
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One can genuinely start helping others at the Sotapanna stage once one becomes an Ariya or a Noble Person.
- Of course, all should start discussing at any stage.
The basic premise of Tobis’ essay is correct.
- Modern science (or quantum mechanics) has not shown how mental entities (vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana) arise from inert matter.
- That is not going to happen, ever.
- It is the reverse that is true. New matter arises based on javana citta created with vedana, sanna, sankhara, and vinnana. That is why the Buddha stated, “Manōpubbangamā dhammā...“
I like your new name, Tobi.
When Tobi states, “This interaction through R, V, S, S, V, causes consciousness to rise in a PS cycle,” I think he refers to rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, and vinnana. That is correct.
Tobi wrote: “5 million magnetic crystals per gram of brain mass are assumed to be “Mana Indria” in the brain.”
- Where did you get that information?
I have not read through the whole essay.
Taryal wrote: “I think the people in the East can also comprehend Buddha’s teachings when explained properly. “
- Of course. I meant that people in the East have been exposed to Buddha’s teachings (even with incorrect interpretations) for a long time. It is easier for them to grasp concepts like kamma/kamma vipaka, rebirth, etc. Most are familiar with those concepts.
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@Jittananto: Yes. Sotapannas are not Anagamis. A Sotapanna can engage in many akusala kamma, but not apayagami ones.
In my previous comment, I wrote: “Thus, engaging in sexual activities unacceptable to society is a “papa kamma” or the worst kind that can lead to rebirths in the apayas.”
- Per Jittananto’s comment, “King Bimbisāra was a sotāpanna, and he enjoyed the service of prostitutes.” I do not know the truth of that. If it is true, may be prostitution was acceptable to the society where the Buddha lived.
- In this case, it is a grey area. I cannot be certain about it. In general, it depends on one’s mental state when one engages in a sexual act outside the marriage. If society does not look down upon it, one may not generate strong javana citta for it to become an apayagami kamma.
- However, in most cases, societal norms do not come into play.
- Kamma and kamma vipaka are not fully discernible to our minds but only to the mind of a Buddha.
@Taryal: Buddha’s (nature’s) laws differ from mundane ones. As I have tried to explain, it is an entirely different worldview.
- You asked: “Why can’t 2 consenting adults have sex even if not married?”
- Of course, the Buddha did not prohibit anyone from doing anything. It is up to each person to decide how to live their lives. But it is bound to have kammic consequences whether one likes it or not. As I mentioned above, if it is normal in a given society, it may not become a strong kamma because one may not generate strong enough javana citta while engaging in that activity. In cases like this, we cannot be 100% certain.
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Pathfinder wrote: “I thought immoral would mean that it would “hurt others”. “
- No. That is the “mundane meaning.”
- “Moral” in Buddha Dhamma has various levels: What you wrote is the first level, which MUST be avoided. The higher levels involve hurting oneself. If one’s actions create conditions that bring future suffering for oneself, those must also be avoided.
- Thus, engaging in sexual activities unacceptable to society is a “papa kamma” or the worst kind; that can lead to rebirths in the apayas. At the next level, sex with one’s lawful partner is “moral” in the mundane sense, but until that desire is removed one cannot get to the Anagami stage.
- See “Pāpa Kamma Versus Akusala Kamma” and “Details of Kamma – Intention, Who Is Affected, Kamma Patha.”
Pathfinder asked: “Is the sukha vedana not real?”
- It is real in the sense that our physical bodies are created to provide that feeling
- This is a deeper aspect that will take some time to understand: “Sotapanna Stage via Understanding Perception (Saññā)”
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Yes. Such effects have been observed by others.
- The physical body can manifest some effects when the mind undergoes significant changes.
- However, those effects “wear away” on their own. One should not pay much attention to them.
- See “Can Buddhist Meditation be Dangerous?“
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From the Dhamma perspective, it is immoral to pay for sex.
- It is OK to engage in sex with one’s lawful partner. All other activities fall under “sexual misconduct.”
- But bhikkhus are prohibited from engaging in any sexual activity. Anyone who cannot abide by that “Vinaya rule” should not become a bhikkhu.
- We are trapped in the “kama loka” primarily because of our craving for sex. Again, the “pleasure of sex” is “mind-made, even though hard to believe. Also, “the beauty of a woman,” or the “handsomeness of a man,” is not absolute/real; it is a “distorted sanna.” I hope to explain that via Paticca Samuppada in the future. The main ideas are in the “Sotapanna Stage via Understanding Perception (Saññā)” section.
P.S. See “Is It Necessary for a Buddhist to Eliminate Sensual Desires?“
In the early days, well before he became a bhikkhu, Waharaka Thero was involved in interactions with “unseen beings” of immoral character. Such activities were more common in those days.
- He gave up such activities after focusing on the deep Dhamma.
I don’t think we need to worry about such effects. When cultivating metta bhavana, spread metta to “all beings” without distinction.
- I have not had any issues, and I also heard about such an issue only from one or two people. Unless one starts focusing on such “unseen beings” they cannot bother us.
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Jittananto wrote: “I understand that as long as we are in the two upper Lokas (Rupa and Arupa), the bad Kamma Vipāka cannot reach us.”
- Yes. The worst types of kamma vipaka materialize in the physical body: injuries, cancer, other sicknesses, headaches, etc…
- Since all Brahmas do not have physical bodies, such vipaka cannot manifest in those 20 realms.
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Thank you, Seng Kiat, for providing the background account. It says:
Na antalikkhe na samuddamajjhe, na pabbatānaṁ vivaraṁ pavissa;
Na vijjatī so jagatippadeso, yatthaṭṭhito mucceyya pāpakammā.Verse 127: Not in the sky, nor in the middle of the ocean, nor in the cave of a mountain, nor anywhere else, is there a place, where one may escape from the consequences of an evil deed.
- What Yash wrote is correct. It does not apply to those who have removed the conditions to bring the results of any past kamma.
1. The kammic energy of any akusala kamma is preserved in viññāna dhātu. That energy can wear out gradually over a long time, but until then, they can bring vipāka IF SUITABLE CONDITIONS appear. It is possible to stop some kamma vipāka (anantariya kamma) by attaining the Sotapanna stage. ALL such conditions can be stopped by attaining Arahanthood. It is critical to understand what “kamma nirodha” means.
- The tendency is to assume that it is about nullifying accumulated kammic energies. However, the accumulated kammic energies cannot be removed (some of those energies are exhausted when they bring vipāka, and others gradually “wear away” with time, which can be billions of years.)
- Any remaining kammic energy CAN return to us as “kamma vipāka” whenever suitable CONDITIONS appear.
2. What we can do is to stop the CONDITIONS that can bring such “kamma vipāka.”
- For example, Angulimala killed almost a thousand people. However, when he attained the Sotapanna stage in front of the Buddha (whom he initially intended to kill, another potent kamma), he instantly nullified any accumulated “kamma vipāka” that could have landed him in an apaya. Then, within a month or so, he attained the Arahant stage and nullified ALL accumulated “kamma vipāka.”
- That shows the basic idea. It also shows the unimaginable benefits of attaining magga phala.
3. A kamma is not any action but a “defiled action” based on one’s sañcetanā (one’s defiled intention), and kammic energies are created AT THAT MOMENT with one’s javana cittas. See “Details of Kamma – Intention, Who Is Affected, Kamma Patha.” I may not have emphasized the difference between mere “cetanā” (any intention) and “sañcetanā” (defiled intention) in that post. If so, please let me know.
- Another point is that “kamma” is done with abhisankhara arising in the mind. Javana cittas arise when we engage in abhisankhara. See “Kamma and Saṅkhāra, Cetanā and Sañcetanā.”
- Such a kammic energy stays in “viññāna dhātu” until suitable CONDITIONS appear to bring back the fruits of that kamma as “kamma vipāka.”
- Those kammic energies are also called “dhammā.” See “What are rūpa? – Dhamma are rūpa too!” and “Rupa, Dhammā (Appaṭigha Rupa) and Nāmagotta (Memories).”
4. The key point is that “kamma nirodha” happens only with magga phala. As a higher magga phala is attained, more and more possible kamma vipāka automatically becomes nullified.
- Even though an Arahant has nullified kamma vipāka that can bring rebirth, vipāka of some accumulated strong kammic energies can appear. That is because there is still one “condition” left to bring vipāka: the physical body of the Arahant, which arose due to a kamma vipāka when that Arahant was born.
- At the death of the physical body of an Arahant, no accumulated kammic energies can bring a vipāka to lead to another rebirth in any realm. That is the end of rebirth and even a trace of suffering.
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Good summary. Thank you, Taryal!
You wrote: “It is sad to see that the true Dhamma remains hidden for the majority of the humans, even many self-proclaimed Buddhists.”
- That is sad but true.
- Most Buddhists (mainly Mahayana and Tibetan) believe that just engaging in rituals (chanting, worshipping the Buddha, etc.) is enough to attain Nibbana.
- I believe most Westerners can grasp Buddha’s teachings if explained methodically and will be able to see the “depth” of Buddha’s teachings. I will try to do that in the new “Meditation – Deeper Aspects” section where I will try to simplify Abhidhamma concepts.
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Yes. It is not easy to stay away from “sensory pleasures.” Some spend hours recalling and enjoying “fond memories” of past sensory experiences.
- Even after it is fully grasped that most “sensory pleasures” are mind-made (due to “distorted sanna“), the tendency is to indulge in sensory pleasures because that is what we all have been doing for an eternity. It is not easy to break that habit.
- That is why people pay to watch good magic shows. They know that those effects are not real, but they are mind-pleasing. The same applies to watching movies.
- That is why the Buddha advised bhikkhus to engage in “mindful meditation” or Satipatthana constantly. Most of those bhikkhus fully understood how the “distorted sanna” arises, but it needed to be contemplated constantly to “wear away” the “bad gati” accumulated over innumerable past lives.
I don’t understand the last part of your comment: “However, i was thinking if there could be a better answer. WITHOUT bringing in concepts of kamma, rebirth and how attachment leads to rebirth, is there a better way to answer this question? I did not want to bring in “supernatural” concepts because it becomes harder to believe. How would y’all have handled it?”
- The fact that a mind attaches not to “real pleasures” but to “mind-made pleasures” (via “distorted sanna“) can not be understood without understanding those concepts.
- One must at least understand the bad consequences of attaching to sensory pleasures if the better explanation of “distorted sanna” is not yet comprehended. That also requires understanding the concepts of kamma, rebirth, and how attachment leads to rebirth, i.e., the ‘big picture.”
TGS asked: “What are you thoughts on SammasamBuddha’s and paccekaBuddha’s? Or more specially what do you think of how a SammasamBuddha or paccekaBuddha’s can come to the understanding / comprehension of the rules of kamma, Paticca Samuppada, 4 Noble Truths and other doctrines without hearing or listening to the teachings from another? It’s my understanding and belief that hearing / listening to even 1 line of the Buddha’s doctrine could be enough to help one to attain nibbana, especially from an Ariya, likewise from the Buddha.”
A Sammasambuddha or a Paccekabuddha were also average humans (puthujjana).
- The word puthujjana can be interpreted two ways (some words can have multiple meanings not only in Pali but in other languages, too). (i) “Puthu” means “many” or ‘majority,” and “jana” means “population.” Thus, in this way, puthujjana means “most people.” (ii) The word puthujjana may also come from “pothu” (meaning “not of much use” like the “bark of a tree”) and “janika” means to “generate.” Thus, it could mean “average humans who engage in foolish activities (because they are unaware of the teachings of a Buddha.) That latter meaning is evident in the “Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta (SN 56.11)“: “Yo cāyaṁ kāmesu kāmasukhallikānuyogo hīno gammo pothujjaniko anariyo anatthasaṁhito, yo cāyaṁ attakilamathānuyogo dukkho anariyo anatthasaṁhito.”
- Any Sammasambuddha, Paccekabuddha, Arahant, or anyone with magga phala would have started off as a puthujjana. They evolve into different paths. I tried to explain that in the post “Pāramitā and Niyata Vivarana – Myths or Realities?“
The below is extracted from that post:
9. A person who eventually becomes a Buddha starts as a scientist or a philosopher in today’s terminology. It is started via two paths, and both need to be fulfilled: “kim sacca gavēsi, kim kusala gavēsi“: investigations of truth and morality.
- Sacca (pronounced “sachcha”) means the truth; “kusala” is, of course, morals, and “gavēsi” is one who investigates. One starts with the intention of finding out how nature works, what morals are, and where morals come from.
- Even today, we can assign such labels to many scientists and philosophers. Of course, only a minute fraction of them will eventually become a Buddha or a great disciple, but that is how one starts.
10. That habit (gati) of looking into the truth and morals grows through successive lives. Most of them drop off due to external influences and unexpected circumstances. But those few who get to cultivate those gati keep cultivating them. As I said before, one may not have even heard of a Buddha for many eons while cultivating such gati. It is just that when one is on the right (or even wrong) path, nature starts guiding one: “Dhammō ha vē rakkhati dhammacāri.”
- By the way, one could start as a man or a woman, but only a man attains Buddhahood. This and several other things “that would not happen” are discussed in the “Bahudhātuka Sutta (MN 115)“.
- In our rebirth process, one could change sex. Sex change can happen even during a lifetime (these days, such transgenders are more common due to social influences).
- In the rebirth process, we have been born a man and a woman innumerable times. If I remember correctly, the Bodhisatta was a woman when she started cultivating pāramitā to become Buddha. But at some point (probably after getting niyata vivarana), he had been a male.
- There is a slight difference between males and females. That may not be politically correct to say these days, but that is the reality. One is a man or a woman because one has cultivated the corresponding gati. No matter how many laws are passed, the military will always be dominated by men, for example.
11. In the Tipiṭaka, it says the usual progression of one’s character (gati) buildup is dāna (giving), sila (moral conduct), bhāvanā (mostly loving kindness towards others), and culminating in paññā (wisdom).
- While these main ones are being cultivated, others are simultaneously cultivated, and the set of ten is called dasa pāramitā. The others are sacca (truth), viriya (effort), khanti (patience), adhitthāna (determination), metta (loving-kindness), nekkhamma (renunciation), and upekkhā (equanimity).
- The process has been analyzed in great detail. For example, each of those ten grows into higher stages: upa pāramitā (middle) and paramatta pāramitā (ultimate). As one progresses through successive lives, such gati get amplified, and one advances to those higher stages.
- As we saw in the previous post, “Animisa Locana Bodhi Poojawa – A Prelude to Acts of Gratitude, “it takes an unimaginably long time to purify the mind and attain the perfect mind of a Buddha.
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