[Lal]

Yes. The Buddha pointed out the dangers in sense pleasures. The only “pleasure” recommended by the Buddha was “jhanic pleasures”.
– But he did not recommend getting to anariya jhana by using anariya techniques like the breath mediation.

When one does insight mediation, one first gets to samadhi, and eventually gets to the Arahanthood, as described in the Upanisa Sutta (SN 12.23):

“..With the comprehension of suffering (i.e., the First Noble Truth via Tilakkhana) faith results; with the growth of faith, lightness of mind (pāmojjaṃ) arises; with increasing lightness of mind, joy (piti) arises; with increasing joy, lightness of the body (passaddhi) arises; with increasing passaddhi, bodily sukha arises; with increasing bodily sukha, samādhi arises; with samādhi, yathābhūtañāṇadassana (knowledge and vision of things as they really are) arises; with the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, one loses attachment to worldly things (nibbidā), followed by losing cravings for sense pleasures (viragā), and liberation (vimutti), and to the destruction of all defilements (khayeñāṇaṃ)”.

Now, jhana may be attained anytime around the step, “with increasing passaddhi, bodily sukha arises“.
– One may proceed all the way to Arahanthood without getting to jhanas.

Of course, even here one may get into anariya jhana by the suppression of kama raga.
– The point is that one DOES NOT HAVE TO do anariya meditation techniques (like breath meditation) to even to get to anariya jhana.
– Anariya jhana just means one has not yet eliminated the kama raga. Even while doing insight meditation, one may get to anariya jhana by just suppressing kama raga. Later on, when one REMOVES kama raga, those will automatically become Ariya jhana.

The point that I am trying to make is that doing breath meditation could be a waste of time.

• Jhana are mental states corresponding to brahma realms.
• For those who have cultivated jhana in previous recent past lives, they come naturally even without much effort.
• So, it could be difficult for others to attain jhanas, even if they have magga phala.
• As the above sutta illustrates, the key to the Arahanthood is to get to samādhi (jhana are a special case of samādhi).

More information at:
Mundane versus Supramundane Jhāna

AND
“Samādhi, Jhāna (Dhyāna), Magga Phala”

P.S. I think “Tapussa Sutta (AN 9.41)” describes the jhanas in detail.

[Lal]

Thank you, Lair, for posting the link to that post.

Yes. There are not many people (including some Sotapannas) who may not really understand what vinnana is.
– I am glad to see that the level of understanding of the people who participate at our forum here is way better than even some scholars who write books.
– They do not have any idea how important the concept of vinnana is, or even what vinnana really means.

It is not necessary to go that deep into vinnana to become a Sotapanna.

However, if one has understood vinnana at that level, one is likely to be a Sotapanna.

[Lal]

upekkha100 said: “I’ll give my points as to why even a good vinnana is contaminated and why an Arahant can’t have any sobhana cetasika in another reply later.”

OK.

[Lal]

Good to hear that you found the post, firewns.

Thanks for providing the link.

[Lal]

“Dosa vinnana has one of the 3 bad roots/causes.
Karuna vinnana has one of the 3 good roots/causes.
Both are contaminated.”

This is not right.

Vinnana is contaminated with dasa akusala.
Vinnana with sobhana cetasika are not considered contaminated.
All sobhana cetasika, including the panna cetasika, are optimized at the Arahant stage.
An Arahant does not get a new bhava because he/she would not go through the “vedana paccaya tanha”, “tanha paccaya upadana”, and “upadana paccaya bhava” steps.

Also see AN 3.34 mentioned in the post that I posted today at the “How can vedana paccaya phassa?” topic.

[Lal]

Yes. It also fits in with “there is no ESSENCE” in any of the pancakkhadha.

P.S. By the way, this use of the word “mendicant” for a bhikkhu is very bad. Mendicant means a “begger”. That is an insult to a bhikkhu. I do not understand why they cannot use the word “bhikkhu”. There is no need to translate each and every Pali word.
– As I have explained many times, some key Pali words cannot be should not be translated as a single English word: anicca, anatta, vinnana, sankhara, etc, etc.

So, Tien has made the meaning of the sutta clear by just replacing the English translations by the original Pali words (anatta, atta), in case someone does not notice.
– For comparison, just go that link and see the English translation. Then you can see the difference.

Ironically, the person who is using this word mendicant at Sutta Central is himself a bhikkhu.

[Lal]

upekkha100 said: “These breakthroughs, are they not same as epiphanies/sudden realizations/aha moments/eureka moments. These realizations are not exclusive to Ariyas. Numerouss people have these…”

Yes. Scientists or innovators have such feelings too upon “figuring out something new”.

But there is a huge difference in the experience of the Ariyas. This is the only way to get to Ariya samadhi, which will get to a stage where it cannot be broken. This is what I explained in my previous post (with Upanisa Sutta).
– All others are just temporary.

[Lal]

“Do I have this correct:

Before the revision:
1) an Arahant would have none of the 6 root causes of existence.
2) 3 Good causes would have been automatically removed AFTER removing the 3 bad causes.

After the revision:
1) Only the 3 bad causes of existence are removed.
2) The 3 good causes of existence remain. They still have the 3 good causes of existence. And are at their maximum too. However, the conditions are removed. Hence why no bad rebirth nor good rebirth will emerge because the Arahant will not upadana neither the bad kamma beeja nor upadana the good kamma beeja?”

Yes.

[Lal]

Lang said: “Finally, one question about the post: what about vēdanā arising from mind input? Does it also start as upekkha vēdanā, and then (for a normal human) turn automatically into dōmanassa or sōmanassa vēdanā?”.

Yes.
– But it needs to be kept in mind that we will not be able to discern the “initial upekkha vedana” in any of these. The follow-up with “samphassa ja vedana” happens within a split second (based on our gathi). We do not have any control over that.
– What we can do is to change our gathi over time. Then with time, “samphassa ja vedana” will diminish.

[Lal]

It is true that there were yogis (and could be at any time) with abhinna (supernormal) powers who can see some of these things. This especially true for seeing past lives and being able to even visit brahma realms (by cultivating jhanas, which correspond to mental states of those brahma realms). But I am not sure whether they can see apayas.

In any case, there are many concepts in several religions, especially in Hinduism, that are coming from the previous Buddha, Buddha Kassapa, who was there before before Buddha Gotama during this Maha Kappa.
– This gets into archaeological dating problems (these dating techniques can only go back about 100,000 years), so I try to keep away from this topic. This is an issue that could deviate attention from more important issues such as incorrect interpretations of Buddha Dhamma.
– Again, there is so much that modern science is still not aware of.

[Lal]

“In one of Lal’s earlier posts, I think it was mentioned that tanha arises from asavas and that avijja and asavas strengthen each other.”

Is it this post: “Gathi (Gati), Anusaya, and Āsava”

I put in “asava tanha” in the “Search box” and this is one of the posts that came up.

Tanha and avijja go together. Both grow together and are eliminated together at the Arahant stage.

They are related to lobha and moha respectively. The other root cause dosa is a manifestation of lobha. So, when lobha and moha (or tanha and avijja) are eliminated all three root causes are eliminated.

P.S. Siebe just sent me a reference sutta that explains this:
“34. Causes (AN 3.34)”
Thank you, Siebe!

[Lal]

“Btw, what about animals without brains? Do they have mana indriya? ”

Even an amoeba has all six sense faculties. It is just that in such lower animals, they are not clearly distinguished. There is still so much that modern science is unable to detect.

For example, scientists have found that even animals with a single cell move towards light. They don’t know how the animal senses light.

[Lal]

It was not Vishaka, y not. But thanks for trying to find the reference.

It is correct that Visakha also attained the Sotapanna stage an early age. But she married a rich person.

[Lal]

Tien is correct that it does not really matter much where the mana indriya is located in the brain, for attaining Nibbana.

However, it is good to confirm the teachings of the Buddha with modern science (as new evidence emerge), as long as one does not spend an excessive time doing it.
– It builds faith and also may convince others who are skeptical of Buddha’s teachings.

So, I try to make these connections whenever opportunities arise. I discussed this issue a little bit in #6 of “The Amazing Mind – Critical Role of Nāmagotta (Memories)“.
– Those who are interested in this issue should read the book referred to there.

As I briefly explained in that post, “saññā” or perception (recognition of external objects) depends on the ability to recall memories (nama gotta). We cannot do that without the mana indriya.
– Patient HM discussed in that book lost his ability to recognize people after a tiny part of his brain was removed in order to suppress his epileptic seizures. So, that is where the mana indriya is located.

I will write another post on this issue in the future, but this is real evidence from modern science confirming Buddha’s description of how the mind works.

Thanks for the reference to the book, Nikita. I plan to read it.

[Lal]

Here is what we know from the suttas. For example, from the Dutiya­ sāri­putta­sutta (SN 55.5): ““Sap­purisa­saṃ­sevo hi, bhante, sotā­patti­yaṅgaṃ, saddham­mas­savanaṃ sotā­patti­yaṅgaṃ, yoniso­ma­nasikāro sotā­patti­yaṅgaṃ, dhammā­nu­dhammap­paṭi­patti sotā­patti­yaṅgan”ti.

Now, saddham­mas­savanaṃ means “listening to Saddhamma or the correct Dhamma”.
P.S. Of course, printed material was not widely available at the time of the Buddha. It is, however, possible that the “tone” of an Ariya could make a difference. So, this is one those issues that we may not have a definite answer.

As for whether listening to recorded desanas count, again we will not know for sure. But Waharaka Thero’s opinion was that it would.

There is the second issue of the attainment of the Sotapanna stage, here are two extremes that have been reported in the Tipitaka:

1. Bhikkhu Potila KNEW inside out of the Tipitaka (but had not really comprehended Tilakkhana). Therefore, he had not attained the Sotapanna stage:
   Are You Not Getting Expected Results from Meditation?
2. On the other hand, there was a princess who had attained the Sotapanna stage at age 7, and then eloped with a person who lived by hunting animals and selling their meat. I don’t remember the reference in the Tipitaka. If someone knows, please post it.

• There was Sarakani brahmin, who drank a lot, attained the Sotapanna stage in his old age, but could not remove his habit of drinking even after attaining the Sotapanna stage: Paṭha­ma­ Saraṇā­ni­sakka ­Sutta (SN 55.24).

P.S. It is quite clear that “comprehending Tilakkhana” cannot be put into words. It is a “vision of the true nature of this world”.
– Another important point is that those who are able to “get it” do not do that without prior effort. They had made much progress in past lives.
– That is why making the effort now will not go to waste.

So, it is impossible for others to determine whether a given person has attained the Sotapanna stage. The person would need to decide that based on his/her experience.
– In any case, if someone can “feel the joy” of Dhamma, it is likely that one is at least getting close to the Sotapanna Anugami stage. Again, there is no “test” for that either.
– It is best to keep striving regardless of what the status is. That effort will not go to waste.

By the way, this “feeling of joy” (piti) when learning Dhamma (whether listening or reading) is a good sign. It leads to sukha, samadhi, and eventually to Nibbana, as described in the Upanisa Suatta (SN 12.23):

“..dukkhūpanisā saddhā, saddhūpanisaṃ pāmojjaṃ, pāmojjūpanisā pīti, pītūpanisā passaddhi, passad­dhū­pani­saṃ sukhaṃ, sukhūpaniso samādhi, samādhūpanisaṃ yathā­bhūta­ñāṇadas­sanaṃ, yathā­bhūta­ñāṇadas­sanūpa­nisā nibbidā, nibbidūpaniso virāgo, virāgūpanisā vimutti, vimuttūpanisaṃ khayeñāṇaṃ.”

You may want to read different translations and see which one is better. I will translate at some point, but the idea should be clear in any translation.

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