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Yes. You are correct in all. Thanks!
“Do those kaya sankhara trigger kaya vinnati rupa?” Yes.
I have revised the post in incorporate those: “Kamma are Done with Sankhāra – Types of Sankhāra“.
“Mano sankhara alone are not abhisankhara, right? Mano sankhara can lead to abhisankhara via “more thinking” in form of vaci and kaya sankhara. Thus the kamma is not strong or complete with only mano sankhara. Mano sankhara are the initial reaction (sanna, vedana) on a sense input (also to a kamma nimitta in case of cuti-patisandhi). “More thinking” means more cetasika are involved, like dosa, moha, lobha …”
Yes. Correct! Mano sankhara cannot lead to rebirths. But both vaci and kaya (abhi)sankhara can.
y not wrote: “However, my whole point was: can these 4 Sotapatti Anga be considered as kusala kamma leading to punna, in turn leading to Nibbana ‘via’ a deva realm? ”
Sotapatti Anga are four CONDITIONS to be fulfilled to attain the Sotapanna Stage. That is a change in one’s mindset: establishing unbreakable faith in the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha and thus to attain an unbreakable sila.
– There is no need to “go through deva realms”.
– Some Sotapannas may be born in deva realms after death. Some may be born in Brahma realms if they had cultivated jhana. Some may just be reborn as humans.
– But of course, the devas who have attained Sotapanna stage and are born in deva realms would be delighted have more of such people born in deva realms.
– Anyway, I understand that you may be trying to say something else which may be true too (like doing a lot of punna kamma is likely to lead to rebirth in deva realms).If you looked at the Pali sutta, you would have seen that those are four Sotapatti Anga that needs to be fulfilled to attain the Sotapanna stage. So, yes, devas would be pleased. etc.
Devasabhāgata Stta (SN 55.36):
“Catūhi, bhikkhave, dhammehi samannāgataṃ attamanā devā sabhāgataṃ kathenti. Katamehi catūhi? Idha, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako buddhe aveccappasādena samannāgato hoti—itipi so bhagavā … pe … satthā devamanussānaṃ buddho bhagavāti. Yā tā devatā buddhe aveccappasādena samannāgatā ito cutā tatrūpapannā tāsaṃ evaṃ hoti: ‘yathārūpena kho mayaṃ buddhe aveccappasādena samannāgatā tato cutā idhūpapannā, ariyasāvakopi tathārūpena buddhe aveccappasādena samannāgato ehīti devānaṃ santike’ti.Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako dhamme … pe … saṅghe … pe … ariyakantehi sīlehi samannāgato hoti akhaṇḍehi … pe … samādhisaṃvattanikehi. Yā tā devatā ariyakantehi sīlehi samannāgatā ito cutā tatrūpapannā tāsaṃ evaṃ hoti: ‘yathārūpehi kho mayaṃ ariyakantehi sīlehi samannāgatā tato cutā idhūpapannā, ariyasāvakopi tathārūpehi ariyakantehi sīlehi samannāgato ehīti devānaṃ santike’ti. Imehi kho, bhikkhave, catūhi dhammehi samannāgataṃ attamanā devā sabhāgataṃ kathentī”ti.
That is the complete sutta.
Those Sotapatti Anga are discussed here: “Sotapatti Anga – The Four Qualities of a Sotapanna“.
This is why say that most English translations do not provide meaningful explanations. In the English translation that you provided, the second paragraph in particular is not good.
– For everyone: Please make an effort to learn how to provide links. It is not hard: “How to Reply to a Forum Question“y not: I am not sure what you mean by “four things the devas speak about having in common”.
If you provide the link to the English translation, I can take a look.
Siebe: You have probably not read the whole account of Angulimala before commenting: “Angulimāla – A Murderer’s Road to Sainthood“.
– I had provided this link in the post: “Account of Angulimāla – Many Insights to Buddha Dhamma”Local authorities were too scared to confront Angulimala, and the King himself came with an army to catch him. But the Buddha intervened before that.
The King thus met Angulimala, who was sitting by the Buddha, when he arrived with the army. Angulimala was already an Arahant by that time. There was no need for the King to arrest Ven. Angulimala.
The word “Idappaccayatā” comes from “ida” for “here” and the closest English word for “paccaya” is “condition”. Thus Idappaccayatā implies “based on this condition at this moment”. Therefore, Idappaccayatā Paticca Samuppāda describes how “pati icca” leads to “sama uppāda” moment by moment based on the conditions present at that moment; see, “Paticca Samuppāda – “Pati+ichcha”+”Sama+uppāda””.
I have revised the post to add this explanation and a couple of more revisions: “Idappaccayatā Paticca Samuppāda“.
Thanks, Tobias, for the suggestion.
P.S.
The additional “p” in “idappacayata” comes from the combination of “ida” and “paccaya”.
This is similar to “dammacakka” and “pavattana” combined to yield “dhammacakkappavattana” in the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta.Yes. I had not taken time to read the rest of #6.
Hopefully, this time I got it right:
“A Simple Way to Enhance Merits (Kusala) and Avoid Demerits (Akusala)“.Another relevant important thing to contemplate is the following:
Human body can endure pain in a limited range. It cannot endure the types of pain that can be endured in some lower realms. If subjected to such suffering, the human body will perish momentarily.
In the same way, a human body cannot experience the pleasures that can be experienced by a deva body.
Therefore, it is only a limited range of pain or pleasure that can be experienced in a given realm.
We all are likely to have done both good and bad kamma in the past. Those really bad kamma will bring vipaka only when we are born in the lower realms.
– Those really good kamma will bring highly-pleasurable vipaka only when we are born in a deva realm (Of course, when one dies there all that pleasure will turn to much suffering).However, if one cultivates panna and attains the Sotapanna stage, one will never be born in an apaya to experience those bad vipaka. Then those “bad kamma” done in the past will become “ahosi kamma”, i.e., they will never again bring vipaka.
– This is why Buddha Dhamma is called a “hetu-phala vāda”, not a “kamma-phala vāda”. Kamma plays an important role, but kamma vipaka can be overcome by removing the CONDITIONS to bring those vipaka to fruition. Those CONDITIONS are in Paticca Samuppada.
– It is essentially the “upādāna paccayā bhava” that can stop a future bhava (and thus jāti or births) from arising. That step will not go through certain types of bhava, depending on whether one has attained Sotapanna, Sakadagami, etc stages of Nibbana. Of course, no bhava will be grasped by an Arahant.Buddha never denied that one can have pleasurable experiences in human and higher realms. However, birth in any realm will end up in much suffering in the long run. Any and all suffering will be stopped only when the rebirth process is stopped (mainly because in the long run, one WILL BE born mostly in the apayas; see, “How the Buddha Described the Chance of Rebirth in the Human Realm“).
– This is the key message of the Buddha. This may not be easy to understand, but this is what is explained in the First Noble Truth.Rishi’s observation is quite right.
Without a past kamma (a kamma beeja) no good or bad thing can happen.
But the key point is that certain conditions must be satisfied for those kamma beeja to bring vipaka.
In particular, for a rebirth to occur at the cuti-patisandhi moment, “upadana paccaya bhava” must be satisfied. When one attains the Arahanthood, both avijja and tanha are completely removed and thus there will be no upadana for any kind of bhava in the 31 realms.
– Therefore, while there may be many kamma beeja from the past that could give rise to a new bhava (and birth), none of those will be grasped (upadana) at the cuti-patisandhi moment of an Arahant.Even in regular kamma vipaka during a lifetime, one can live in such way as not to provide conditions for bad kamma beeja to bring fruits.
– For example, if one goes to a bad neighborhood at night, one may be setting up conditions for some bad kamma vipaka to materialize.
– Or, if one gets really drunk, one may be getting into arguments and even fights.
– I really cannot understand why people keep re-building houses in flood zones. They are likely to face the same situation again. It is again setting up conditions for another possible future disaster.One should really contemplate on this point.
Siebe wrote: “An arahant does feel pain as a burden because he/she does not experience it as me and mine anymore.”
This is totally incorrect.
Did not the Buddha feel pain when injured by Devadatta? Did he not suffer from back pains? Did he not have another ailment (lohitapakkanti) close to Parinibbana?
– You are probably quite familiar with the sutta references for those.This seems like similar to the topic on Sakkaya Ditthi. No point in trying to discuss deep suttas using superficial/incorrect translations.
Just understand that an Arahant is not reborn in the 31 realms (which are filled with suffering) after death. That is what really matters.
I have no more comments on this.
Siebe wrote: “-according the sutta’s the buddha did not teach an arahant does not exist anymore after death. He also did not teach he does exist, nor did he teach that he both exist and not-exist, nor did he take the stand of nor-existing nor not-existing.”
This is a deep point.
In an ultimate sense, it is not possible to say “a person exists” because all five aggregates keep changing (a man is not the same compared to when he was a baby, both mentally and physically).
On the other hand, it is not possible to say that man “does not exist”. Obviously there is a man who lives.
This is why the Buddha rejected both those extreme views. At every moment a living being (or any sankata) has an existence that is dictated by Paticca Samuppada.
Furthermore, there is a continuation of this Paticca Samuppada process after death for a normal human (because there are causes and conditions to sustain that process)
– However, an Arahant has stopped the CONDITIONS for that process to proceed to at the moment of death (cuti-patisandhi), even though there will still be causes (past kamma) left. Therefore, that rebirth process is stopped for an Arahant.y not wrote: “I think in its category/essence, moral or immoral, it is kusala; punna is inherent in kusala and is the fruit or manifestation of it. So I would say that kusala becomes punna, rather than the other way round.”
This is not correct.
– One who does punna kamma gains merits to be born in “good realms”. That is one who has not comprehended Tilakkhana.
– One who does kusala kamma is doing good deeds with the knowledge and understanding that he/she is not doing those to have “good births”, but to attain Nibbana (i.e., to stop the rebirth process).
– Basically one doing kusala kamma is an attha purisa puggala.The word “kusala” comes from “ku” + “sala’, where “ku” (for “kunu”) are defilements, and “sala” means to get rid of. Thus “kusala” means to “get rid of defilements”.
– Even meritorious deeds, done with any hidden expectation of a “return” is not a kusala. But it is not an akusala (immoral deed) either.
– It is a punna kamma, that will bring joy to the heart and “good results in a mundane sense, i.e., good births or good kamma vipaka like being born with health and wealth.What I discussed above needs some background in Abhidhamma:
“Gandhabba (Manomaya Kaya)- Introduction”
and other posts in the Abhidhamma section.
