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After reading the above post of dosakkhayo, it seems to me that he has two unresolved issues:
1. The difference between amoha and paññā, which I briefly explained in the thread, “hetu the six roots.”
– That topic was discussed previously too: “post on Kusala-Mula Paṭicca Samuppāda”2. How the “comprehension of the Four Noble Truths” (i.e., the level of paññā attained) at a magga phala “carries over to subsequent rebirths.” In other words, how can one not lose that attainment when dying in this life and being reborn?
– From dosakkhayo’s following comment above, it seems that he thinks that “newfound understanding” must become a memory to be carried over to the next life:
“Without punna iddhi or cultivate jhana and iddhi, one cannot access the previous memory.”
– It is not a matter of being able to recall what one has learned. That knowledge/understanding stays with the seat of the mind (hadaya vatthu) and is transferred to the next hadaya vatthu when grasping a new bhava. When Samsaric bonds (samyojana) are broken, they never “come back.” There is no need to “consciously think” about it.@dosakkhayo: Before I go any further, were those the unresolved issues? Do the above explanations help? Do they need further clarification?
– What do you mean by ” inseparable group” in the last three questions? I am not sure what that means. May be you can give the Pali word for it.dosakkhayo wrote: “The reason why I asked the question is I had been confused by there is no amoha cetasika.”
OK. I understand the issue that you trying to resolve.
It is the paññā cetasika that “represents” amoha. But paññā would be absent until one becomes a Sotapanna Anugami by starting to comprehend Four Noble Truths/Paticca Samuppada/Tilakkhana.
– That is also why avijjā is defined as “not understanding the Four Noble Truths.” See “Avijjā Sutta (SN 56.17).”: “Yaṁ kho, bhikkhu, dukkhe aññāṇaṁ, dukkhasamudaye aññāṇaṁ, dukkhanirodhe aññāṇaṁ, dukkhanirodhagāminiyā paṭipadāya aññāṇaṁ—
ayaṁ vuccati, bhikkhu, avijjā;.”
– Thus, until avijjā starts fading one would ONLY have “mundane amoha” instead of paññā.I will make an expanded explanation in the other thread “What is the knowing which Sotapanna cannot lose even beyond death?”
– I think you raised the same question in a different way there.
– Let me think about how best to explain the issue there.I have been trying to respond to your original comment:
“Where the 6 primary causes lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, amoha belong to?
the six dhatu? pathavi, apo, tejo, vayo, akasa, vinnana?
or elsewhere?”That comment did not make any sense.
What is the issue that you are trying to get at?
– I don’t know the conversation at the Korean Puredhamma site because I cannot read Korean.
– If you want to ask me a question, just ask that question.Thank you, LayDhammaFollower!
P.S. It is a good practice to use the following guidelines to insert a link to a comment:
3. In particular, it is good to use the “link” button to provide a link to another post or even external links. In order to describe the procedure, let us assume that you want to provide a link to the “Abhidhamma – Introduction” post at the website.
– Open that post in a separate window.
– Copy the title of the post (Abhidhamma – Introduction) and paste in the text you are writing.
Select that text with the title (Abhidhamma – Introduction) and click the “link” button. It will open a new window to put in the web address.
– Go to that other open window with the “Abhidhamma – Introduction” post and copy the web address from that web page (which in this case is https://puredhamma.net/abhidhamma/abhidhamma-introduction/”).
– Come back and paste that to provide the link at the URL input.
– You can also check the little box “Open link in a new tab”, so that when someone clicks on the link, it will be opened in a new window.
– Follow the same procedure to provide an external link.
*****
Those instructions are from: “How to Post/Reply to a Forum Question”Of course, just do it as you did if it is not easy to follow the instructions. It is just that the comment will look better, , and also, the link will open in a new tab. That allows the reader to go back and forth between the comment and the link if needed.
I just “fixed” your links per those instructions.
****@ dosakkhayo: Also, see #5 of “Sōtapanna Anugāmi – No More Births in the Apāyās“
“So I guess there are some contextual differences between the lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa as a cetasika and the lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, and amoha as a six hetu.”
Why cannot they be in both categories?
– Defilements are what lead to future births. Those defilements ARE the bad types of cetasika (asobhana cetasika).
– As one progresses on the Noble Path, the possibility for those “bad cetasika” to arise in one’s mind is gradually reduced. Eventually, one would have the panna cetasika optimized, and not a single bad (or asobhana) cetasika will arise in one’s mind. That is the Arahant stage.You are confusing paramatta Dhamma with those present in one’s mind. If all paramatta Dhamma must be with a person, they will never attain Nibbana.
dosakkhayo asked: “It sounds like a Sotapanna Anugami must attain the Sotapanna stage in given bhava. Is it right? But from what I understand is Sotapanna Anugami has no limit of bhava. After becoming Sotapanna, one is left 7 bhava or less. So I’d like to know about this point.”
Those are two different issues. One is a Sotapanna Anugami becoming a Sotapanna. The other is a Sotapanna attaining Arahanthood within seven bhava.
On the second question: Good point. I have revised that as: “10. So, it is essential to understand that getting rid of the first three samyōjana involves nothing else but comprehending the anicca nature.”
I have revised that post as well as another related post, “Anantara and Samanantara Paccayā”
Both were old posts and needed revision. Let me know if you have questions on either post.
Thanks, y not, for the reference.
– I have revised the post to include it.The following is the account that I found for Dhp 338-343:
“Dhammapada Verses 338 to 343”
– Note that the background story uses the word “sow” for “piglet.”Waharaka Thero rarely provided Tipitaka references. But it is a matter of time. I am sure we will also come across the other one at some point. Thanks for your efforts.
Good question!
I will try to answer in the point format. Some people may want to read the post, “What Reincarnates? – Concept of a Lifestream” to get the background material.
1. Current “mental qualities” (in particular, gati and anusaya) are associated with the hadaya vatthu of the manomaya kaya.
2. Of course, gati and anusaya can and will change, even moment-to-moment. However, they change gradually. Even when the physical body dies, the manomaya kaya can enter another womb and start a new physical body, but with the “same” (but gradually changing) hadaya vatthu.
3. But when the “human bhava” ends, that manomaya kaya (hadaya vatthu and a set of pasada rupa) will die.
4. But kammic energy will create a new manomaya kaya (with a new hadaya vatthu and a set of pasada rupa) at that time. That is the cuti-patisandhi moment of “grasping a new bhava.”
5. That new hadaya vatthu WILL have the same anusaya (hidden defilements) but gati CAN BE very different from the those for the previous bhava.
– For example, if the transition is from a human bhava to an animal bhava, the new manomaya kaya will have “animal gati.” Note that even within a “dog bhava,” different dogs will have different “dog gati.” But as a set, all dogs have some common “dog gati” that are vastly inferior to “human gati.”6. Therefore, while gati may change drastically, anusaya will remain the same after the cuti-patisandhi moment.
– We can say that dasa samyojana represent the anusaya of a lifestream. P.S. See “Dasa Samyōjana – Bonds in Rebirth Process.”
– Unless at least the Sotapanna Anugami stage is attained, ALL living beings will have the ten samyojana. A Sotapanna Anugami will attain the Sotapanna stage before the cuti-patisandhi moment.7. Thus, by the time a Sotapanna gets to the cuti-patisandhi moment (to grasp a new bhava), three samyojana would have been removed from the anusaya.
– Thus, the new hadaya vatthu will have only SEVEN samyojana, i.e., less anusaya.8. That means that lifestream CAN NOT grasp a bhava in an apaya. Those lost three samyojana are permanently lost.
– In other words, a Sotapanna can NEVER again have “dog gati” or the “gati of a hell-being,” for example.
– If that Sotapanna grasps a Deva bhava, they will have Deva gati. If a Brahma bhava grasped, then Brahma gati, etc.Some familiarity with the posts on gandhabba may be needed: “Mental Body – Gandhabba” and “Gandhabba (Manomaya Kaya).”
Regarding the second part:
It s a good idea to write the comment/question using a word processor and then copy and paste, especially if it is a long comment.
– Also, note that a given comment SHOULD NOT be revised after an hour. It will not be revised. Some people had the original post deleted when they tried to revise it after an hour.If one has NOT lost the ability to get into a jhana by the time of death, they WILL BE born in a Brahma realm corresponding to that jhana.
– That is true for an Ariya or anariya jhana.The following details are important.
1. If one attains an Ariya jhana, that comes with or after getting into at least the Sotapanna Anugāmi stage. Then the ability to get into jhana will never be lost. Thus, they WILL BE born in a Brahma realm.2. Conversely, anariya jhanas may be “lost.”
– Someone who attained an anariya jhāna may lose the ability to get into it later.
– For example, Devadatta had attained the highest (anariya) jhana but lost that ability after he injured the Buddha and was involved in Sanghabedha too. Thus, he lost the “good anantariya kamma” and gained a “bad anantariya kamma” by his death and was born in an apāya.Good job, y not. You and I posted almost at the same time!
P.S. If anyone knows the names of suttas for the accounts described in #4 of the post, “Why a Sotāpanna is Better off than any King, Emperor, or a Billionaire,” please post.
It is “Khettūpama Sutta (SN 42.7).”
I just revised the post in question to include another reference as well:
“Why a Sotāpanna is Better off than any King, Emperor, or a Billionaire”Please provide the name of the post (like I did above) instead of stating “this post.” That is more informative.
