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Yes. It is a bit of a complex subject.
- I realized it may be better to use pictures rather than text to get the ideas across.
- The “distorted saññā” is “built-in” to our mental AND physical bodies by kammic energy (via Paticca Samuppada.) That is why it is hard to figure out that it is a “mirage” or a “trick,” as the Buddha emphasized in the “Pheṇapiṇḍūpa Sutta (SN 22.95).”
- Understanding how the gandhabba and the physical body are interconnected also helps.
- To all: Please don’t hesitate to ask questions. Understanding this will go a long way in comprehending the “previously unknown teachings” of the Buddha and eliminating future suffering.
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1. A newborn (just born) has not seen anything yet and, thus, has no idea about her milk bottle. She gets used to seeing it with time, and neural connections are made in her brain to identify it. She understands that it has her food. In the same way, neural networks will be established in her brain (which keeps growing) to identify Mom, Dad, and others in the family, her toys, etc.
- Unless the brain fully grows and most neural connections are established, the baby’s understanding (or perception or saññā)
about the external world will not be complete. - Until the ability to identify (saññā) a specific item in the world is established, the baby cannot form a like or dislike for it.
2. First, the baby will identify the Mom and start bonding with her. That is the first type of “rāga” or attachment in this world. Thus, with time, the baby will start attaching to more things. In the same way, if she does not like a specific food, she may form a dislike (patigha) for it.
- That is why the Buddha said a newborn has no idea about ditthi, defilements, etc.
- Of course, the gandhabba inside the physical body of the baby has all ditthi, samyojana, and anusaya intact (unless it is a jāti Sotapanna.)
3. For such ditthi, samyojana, anusaya, etc., to be triggered, the baby must first recognize things (saññā) and form a like or dislike for them.
- Even when the brain is fully formed around seven years of age, strong kāma rāga (of sexual nature) will not arise in a child. That saññā will grow over time. In other words, a strong kama raga of sexual nature is not likely to be triggered in a seven-year-old, even though they will have the kāma rāga anusaya/samyojana intact.
That is what I wanted to explain. I hope the explanation is clear enough. Feel free to ask questions if I missed something. There could be other issues that I did not think about.
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Yes. You got it.
- It is about the gandhabba who can travel far by himself (when he comes out of the physical body or “sarira.”)
- “ Asariraṁ” means “when without a physical body.” But it also resides in a “cave” (guhāsayaṁ), referring to when trapped in the physical body.
- It is us, burdened with heavy physical bodies that are “hard to be moved.”
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The following figure shows why a “baby” or a “grown adult” is the COMBINATION of the mental body (gandhabba) and the physical body.
- A human gandhabba may live for many thousand of years. During that time, it can be born with many different physical bodies.
- The gandhabba is fully shielded from the outside world by the physical body. That way, gandhabba‘s experience is limited to only those sensory inputs that can come via the physical body. Being trapped in a physical body is a consequence of one’s craving to enjoy “close contact” like tastes, smells, and touch (sex.) But that limits the capabilities for seeing and hearing.
- A gandhabba can see and hear at long distances if it comes out of the physical body; it can also travel far by merely thinking about where to go.
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The above cartoon explains how the gandhabba sees while being outside or inside a physical body.
(https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1fEIR5selbqa3cba8nPbxKFGEfp-iXytx)
Note:
1. While being OUTSIDE the physical body, the gandhabba sees using a different mechanism that does not involve light.
- It is possible that the brain converts the image received from the eyes (via the optic nerve) to a type of signal used by the gandhabba while being OUTSIDE.
2. A gandhabba (while being INSIDE the physical body) will also not see if the eyes are damaged, even if the brain works.
3. The point is that while INSIDE the physical body, a gandhabba CAN NOT see on its own. It also cannot hear, smell, etc., if the brain is not functioning.
- That is also true for recalling memories “stored” in the external world (in viññāna dhātu). They also need to come through the brain. Therefore, a gandhabba is totally isolated from the world while INSIDE a physical body. The brain plays a critical role. See “Memory Recall for Gandhabba in a Human Body.” It is a good idea to read this post. It talks about how the brain uses a transmitter and a receiver to exchange information with viññāna dhātu (bullet #4). We will use that in the next step.
- That also happens while we are sleeping. The brain goes into an inactive mode while sleeping. But the gandhabba never goes to sleep. If it does not get a signal from the brain, it cannot experience anything.
There are more steps. Feel free to ask questions from all my comments/explanations above. Try to keep track because this is a complex subject. I have discussed this before, but the information is spread over many posts. Also, I did not go into this much detail.
P.S. It should be “optic nerve” and not “optical nerve.”
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We have not yet discussed how the gandhabba sees when inside the physical body, Gad.
- The brain must process a visual captured by the eyes and then direct it to the gandhabba inside.
- I will go through that step next. I want to make sure to get this fully clarified. If anything about my comment above or the video is unclear, we need to clear that up first. I will wait until tomorrow and post the next step of clarification.
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I think the issue is understanding how the gandhabba (mental body) trapped inside the physical body experiences the external world. That must be understood before understanding how gandhabba recognizes things in the external world (saññā).
So, the first step is: How does the gandhabba receive information about the external world? How does it see someone standing in front of the physical body?
Facts:
- Gandbabba consists of only a hadaya vatthu (seat of the mind) and five pasada rupa (cakkhu, sota, ghana, jivha, kaya.)
- If the gandhabba is OUTSIDE the physical body (as in out-of-body experiences OBE/NDE), it can see, hear, and think. Here, seeing and hearing happen via mechanisms we don’t understand.
- But when the gandhabba is INSIDE the physical body, it is fully shielded. Take just vision first. To see something, the physical eyes must work. And that light signal must be transmitted to the brain via optical nerves and processed by the brain. The brain MUST pass that information to the gandhabba (by a mechanism we don’t fully understand.)
- Sometimes, via accidents or due to other medical reasons, one of those three components (physical eyes, optical nerves, brain function) may permanently or temporarily stop.
- If the brain function stops (temporarily) then the patient cannot see, hear, or respond in any way. That is what happened to the woman in the following video. She temporarily lost brain function.
Notes:
1. The woman’s gandhabba may have come out of the paralyzed body at some point. It was in the room when Dr. Greyson came and followed him to the other room where her friend was. The gandhabba was watching and listening to the conversation between her friend and Dr. Greyson.
- So, she was able to see with her gandhabba body. Can there be any doubts about that?
2. Once medical treatment restored her brain function, she was able to recall the conversation and tell Dr. Greyson it in great detail. She not only heard but also saw the full details. That is why she noticed the stain on Dr. Greyson’s tie!
- The gandhabba coming out of the physical body is not of common occurrence. However, he mentioned (maybe in another video) that about 10% of all people have experienced such an OBE. It is more common when patients undergo heart operations because the hadaya vatthu in the mental body overlaps the physical heart.
- If anyone in this forum has experienced OBE, it would be nice to hear from them.
Ask if there are any questions. In the next comment, I will go to the next step. This is critical to understand.
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It is critical to understand that perception (saññā) does not happen in the physical body but in the “mental body” or gandhabba.
- I just revised the following post: “How Do We See? – Role of the Gandhabba.”
- Hopefully, that would be helpful to get that idea to sink in.
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That is a good suggestion, Lang.
- The “distorted saññā (sañjānāti)” certainly plays a role in the “avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra” step. But the initial application of that is subtle and not direct.
- I plan to discuss this in detail in a future post. But let me give the basic idea.
1. As we have discussed, the “distorted saññā” comes into play at the very beginning or the initiation of the sensory input.
- Let us consider eating a cake. The initial step is “ jivhāñca paṭicca rase ca uppajjāti jivhā viññāṇaṃ.“ Here, jivhā viññāṇa is what we call a “vipaka vinnana.” No strong kamma with “avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra” takes place here.
- However, the initial attachment to the taste (with “distorted saññā”) happens there. That step includes several steps, even though it happens in a single citta: (i) the mind automatically makes a “rasa rupa” based on the “distorted saññā,” (ii) it also attaches to that rasa rupa (unless one is an Arahant or Anāgāmi.) But, here avijjā is not directly involved (this “subtle attachment” happens automatically as long as the mind has kāma rāga samyojana/anusaya, i.e., if one is NOT an Anāgāmi/Arahant.)
2. In subsequent steps in a citta vithi, the mind gets increasingly attached to that taste. The complete sequence is “Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhuviññāṇaṁ, tiṇṇaṁ saṅgati phasso, phassapaccayā vedanā, vedanāpaccayā taṇhā.” See “Chachakka Sutta (MN 148).” That sequence is for a visual input; the same sequence holds for taste, as indicated @ marker 9.6.
- If a mind gets to the next critical step of “taṇhā paccayā upādāna,” strong kamma accumulation starts with “avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra.” This is where “avijjā” directly comes into play with “avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra.” See #12, #13 of “Taṇhā Paccayā Upādāna – Critical Step in Paṭicca Samuppāda.” That is where the “Akusala-mūla uppatti Paṭicca Samuppāda” process (that can lead to rebirths) starts.
3. By being mindful (with insight/wisdom), one can stop the progression at two places: (i) At the latter stage of “taṇhā paccayā upādāna.” This is the “nava kamma” stage where “strong kamma accumulation” with javana citta occurs. (ii) But the whole process could be stopped earlier where the “distorted saññā” leads to the “initial attachment” (in #1 above) with the cultivation of the deeper version of Satipaṭṭhāna. This earlier stage is called the “purāna kamma” stage.
4. I briefly discussed the “purāna kamma” and “nava kamma” stages in #10 of “Mūlapariyāya Sutta – The Root of All Things.”
- I plan to discuss this in detail in a future post but feel free to ask questions.
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The following comment is by Saket:
We are quite familiar now with the meaning of Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta : “nothing in this world of 31 realms can be maintained to our wish (icca) in the long run. Hence if we attach to this world, we are bound to get suffering and hence this world is of no essence/no value.”
There is also a deeper meaning of Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta based on the understanding of “distorted sanna”.
Due to distorted sanna, the mind presents a false picture of the world around us. We think that the sights, sounds, smells, taste, touch, from the outside world are pleasurable. But actually our mind is playing a trick with us all the time!
In reality, the outside (as well as the inside) world is NOT what we think it is… This world is FAKE and is an ILLUSION in the sense that it DOES NOT offer what it claims to offer (happiness). Instead, it gives us only suffering! (because we attached to it and fell in the trap)
We have been cheated and deceived by our own mind all this time in the infinite Sansaric journey, falsely believing that this world of 31 realms has happiness to offer! So, we took this world to be something of value or having an essence. (see how our own mind is the biggest fraud!)
But in reality, the world is like a foam, like a bubble, like a mirage… having no essence, having no substance, having no value. Our mind gives “value” to things in this world due to the illusion created by distorted sanna!
This is the deeper meaning of Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta.
If this understanding truly sinks in our mind and our minds accept this TRUTH wholeheartedly, then all our defilements (anusaya, sanyojana, kilesa) will be removed forever!
This is the same as having “yathabhuta nana” (the knowledge of things AS THEY REALLY ARE) !!!
My note: Even though this comment could be in the forum that Saket posted on, I moved it here because it is related to “Distorted Saññā.” Saket is correct in his statements. But “yathābhuta ñāna” gets firmly established only when we can “see” (with wisdom or paññā) how that “distorted saññā” arises due to the gati. We cannot make that connection until we understand that “distorted saññā” arises in the mental body or gandhabba AND the role of the brain in that process.
- Those “gati” are in the gandhabba (specifically, associated with the hadaya vatthu) and have been cultivated over many lives to be born with that specific set of gati.
We should get this issue resolved before proceeding further.
- There is no point in writing more about “distorted saññā” until people have a good understanding of what saññā means and how it arises.
- I think a big “mental block” exists in many people’s minds to look at the gandhabba as an alien entity. You are your “mental body,” and the physical body is secondary. Your thoughts (cittās) arise in your mental body. However, the physical body (and the brain) play significant roles, while the mental body is entrapped in the physical body. Once outside the physical body, the mental body can see, hear, and think on its own; of course, it cannot taste, smell, or touch.
- It has driven into our mind that our physical body (or the brain) creates thoughts. But the physical body is just a “shell” that becomes useless once the mental body (gandhabba) comes out of it.
- As we have discussed, a human bhava (existence) may last many thousands of years. It is that “mental body” that lasts through that whole time.
- Your essence is not your physical body or the brain but your mental body (gandhabba.) However, the physical body and the brain play major roles, while the mental body is inside the physical body.
Now that we have many specific posts on gandhabba and saññā to review, I will stop writing more new posts in the new series on “Sotapanna Stage via Understanding Perception (Saññā).”
- Instead, we need to discuss and clarify any questions that may arise while reading those posts that are specified above, including those posts in the new series. Of course, there are many more on the website.
- Please refer to the post in question and the specific bullet numbers when asking questions.
- Of course, you can ask any other related question too, on this thread.
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I recommend reading the following post to understand the relationship between the brain and the gandhabba:
“Gandhabba in a Human Body – an Analogy.”
- I wrote a series of posts on this subject some time back. I recommend reading that section for more information: “Brain and the Gandhabba.”
- This is truly an exciting subject. I see that this section was somewhat hidden. So, it is possible that many of you may not have seen these posts. It is in another subsection: “Buddha Dhamma – A Scientific Approach.”
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Lang wrote: “I still have no idea yet about the topic at hand.”
This is a discussion about the last part of my comment on December 31, 2023 at 6:16 am. Let me reproduce that below:
Now, we can try to address the following issue that I brought up in the previous thread.
“2. Then the sutta mentions this question by the Buddha: “For Mālunkyaputta, an infant lying on its back, does not have even the concept of identity, so how could the self-identity view arise in him?”
- Have you understood why that is the case?
- The Pali verse is: “Daharassa hi, mālukyaputta, kumārassa mandassa uttānaseyyakassa sakkāyotipi na hoti, kuto panassa uppajjissati sakkāyadiṭṭhi?”
- In Sutta Central translation, the same verse is translated as: “For a little baby doesn’t even have a concept of ‘substantial reality,’ so how could substantialist view possibly arise in them?” See “Mahāmālukya Sutta (MN 64.)“
Let me rephrase the question the following way (since now I have explained the difference between sakkāya and sakkāya diṭṭhi with a discussion on “distorted saññā.”)
- “A little baby doesn’t even have a concept of ‘sakkāya,’ (i.e., attachment), so how could sakkāya diṭṭhi (wrong view about attachment) possibly arise in them?”
- Can anyone explain that now?
1. Most of the statements by Saket above are indeed correct about Buddha Dhamma or Buddha’s teachings.
Saket wrote: “Lord Buddha didn’t teach Hinayana, Mahayana or Vajrayana.”
- Someone could say that “Lord Buddha didn’t teach Theravada either.”
2. Theravada‘s most compelling evidence is the Tipitaka, written over 2000 years ago by Arahants, who can be justifiably argued to be well-versed in the teachings of the Buddha Dhamma.
- Furthermore, the content in the Tipitaka is truly self-consistent. But for that, the Pali text must be correctly interpreted.
3. As I have pointed out in many posts, current translations of the Pali Tipitaka (in Thervada texts) have many errors. There is nothing wrong with the Tipitaka. However, the incorrect interpretations have also corrupted Theravada (as practiced by many today).
- See, for example, “Incorrect Thēravada Interpretations – Historical Timeline.”
- I wrote a whole section of posts on such incorrect interpretations: “Elephants in the Room.” For example, what they teach as “Anapanasati” is ridiculously wrong!
4. Therefore, we should be open to discussions.
- I am open to discussing any material from anyone that could be a part of Buddha’s teachings.
- We should have honest discussions without putting down anyone. But, of course, I have pointed out some glaring problems with Mahayana teachings. See, for example, “Key Problems with Mahāyāna Teachings” and “Saddharma Pundarika Sutra (Lotus Sutra) – A Focused Analysis.”
@Vajraguru: We can discuss any of my above posts too, if you wish to point out any errors in them.
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