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Dosakkhato wrote: “I wonder what each of these three words means: satta loka, okasa loka, and sankhara loka.”
- This is information overload.
- I am not saying that it is useless. However, one needs to learn the basic concepts first. By that, I mean concepts like “purana kamma”, “nava kamma,” “ajjhatta vinnana,” “bahidda vinnana,” etc.
- There will be new information on those concepts in the next post. It will be out before the Zoom session planned, hopefully by Friday.
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7.30 am EST is 6.30 AM in my time zone. Shifting down by an hour is too early for me.
- I am available anytime from 7.30 AM EST to 11.30 PM EST (must end time.)
OK. I guess we can use either the Zoom forum or the Google forum.
- I don’t have much experience with either. Let us see whether others have any suggestions on that.
- The suggested topic is good to be the main topic. If others have any other specific topics in mind, please post. We can try to address a few.
I am a bit confused. Is “Sammasambhodi Gami” same person as Saket? Or are you two working together?
- One suggested a Zoom meeting and the other a Google meeting.
Thank you!
- I have discussed only a few of the 24 paccaya.
- “Paṭṭhāna Dhamma.”
I had no idea! But I appreciate your enthusiasm, Saket.
- That would be 7.30 AM EST (New York, USA) on Sunday 14th.
Since Saket is so enthusiastic, we can proceed with it if the time is okay for others.
- We can think about an hour-long session, even though I can stay longer if needed. It happens to be a good day/time for me.
- I will leave it to Saket to organize it. I have used Zoom only a couple of times personally, not in a group setting.
- Having a few topics for discussion beforehand may be a good idea. That way, I can think about them too.
This will only be a trial session for now.
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Thank you, Christian.
- However, we have not decided whether there is enough interest or how to go about it if we choose to do it.
- How do you conduct your “discord”? Is it an online forum like the one being proposed? I think you mentioned it before, but I have not had time to take a look. You can post a link here if you think it can benefit those on this forum.
First, Gad, don’t direct a question just for me. Just ask the question so that others can answer, too. That will lead to more discussions rather than me giving my interpretation/explanation.
1. Regarding the sutta translation you linked to, here is another, still mostly incorrect, translation: “Dutiyasaññā Sutta (AN 7.49).”
- The seven types of saññā discussed in the sutta: “Asubha saññā, maraṇa saññā, āhāre paṭikūlasaññā, sabbaloke anabhiratasaññā, anicca saññā, anicce dukkha saññā, dukkhe anatta saññā.”
- It will take at least a couple of posts for me to provide even a brief summary.
2. Let me give you a few examples:
- “asubha” does mean “foulness” in the link you gave or “ugliness” in the link I gave. It is about the “unfruitfulness” of worldly things that appear enticing due to our “distorted saññā.”
- “āhāre paṭikūlasaññā” is translated in your link as “perception of loathsomeness in food” and “perception of the repulsiveness of food” in the link I gave. This “āhāra” does not refer to the “physical food” we eat. It refers to “mental food”. See “Āhāra Sutta (SN 12.11).” Again here, the translation of “Kabaḷīkāro āhāra” as “solid food” is incorrect; it should be our food cravings.
3. This is why even the current mainstream Theravada is way off, at least the currently available English versions. Of course, there is nothing wrong with the Tipitaka Pali version. The problems are with the translations.
- But the issue is that I don’t have enough time to correct each incorrect/incomplete translation.
- Instead, I need to focus on the posts I write to make sure you understand them. I give priority to those questions.
- Of course, you can ask general questions on any topic. But leave the question open so that someone else can provide the answer. I will also answer such general questions whenever I have the time.
4. However, those seven types of saññā (listed in #1 above) are to be cultivated to OVERCOME the types of “distorted saññā” that arise in a puthujjana.
- We have been discussing the subject of the “distorted saññā” in recent posts: “Sotapanna Stage via Understanding Perception (Saññā).”
- By studying that series (more to come), you will hopefully learn how to cultivate the seven types of saññā listed above.
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This is a critical sutta to discuss. Let me give just the basic idea first.
1. We accumulate kamma in two ways:
(i) where avijjā does not manifest, meaning one’s THOUGHTS at that moment are not directly based on ignorance. Instead, ignorance hidden in one’s samyojana/anusaya assists indirectly for such thoughts to arise. These are only mano kamma.
(ii) As those thoughts lead to more thoughts (i.e., if the ārammana is tempting), then we start consciously thinking (vaci sankhāra) and even initiate bodily actions (with kāya sankhāra). These are the strong kamma that can lead to rebirth.
2. The first category is “purāna kamma,” and the latter is “nava kamma.”
- Both are initiated by a sensory input (ārammana.) As you see, “purāna kamma” happens in the early stage, and “nava kamma” occurs in the latter stage.
3. Those “new kamma” in the latter stage are done consciously (with javana citta.) They are done with avijjā and described by the uppatti Paticca Samuppāda: “avijjā paccayā sankhāra,” where “paccayā” is described by the “hetu paccayā.“ That means sankhāra are generated with avijjā directly (i.e., avijjā is hetu or the direct cause.)
- On the other hand, “purāna kamma” occurs at the beginning of exposure to an ārammana. As we discussed, an ārammana always brings a “distorted sannā.” Here, the mind attaches to the ārammana (at various strengths, depending on the ārammana) and AUTOMATICALLY generates abhisankhara based on one’s hidden defilements (anusaya/samyojana.)
- That INDIRECT involvement of avijjā (not consciously) is said to happen via the “upanisa paccayā.” Here, “upanisa” means something like “indirect support.”
- That happens in the avyākata Paticca Samuppāda, which occurs right after exposure to an ārammana.
4. Thus, we can see that avyākata Paticca Samuppāda and uppatti Paticca Samuppāda could both run in a citta vithi based on an ārammana.
- They correspond to the “purāna kamma” and the “nava kamma” stages.
- See, “Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda for Vipāka Viññāṇa.” In fact, the whole process (what we have separated as two PS processes) is just one Paticca Samuppāda. Even though they are separately discussed as two PS processes in the Tipitaka Commentaries, they are NOT discussed separately in the Sutta Pitaka.
- I think Dosakkhayo asked about this in an earlier discussion.
5. What I briefly discussed above will become more clear in the next post I am writing on “purāna kamma” and”nava kamma.“
- For those who want to dig deeper, 24 types of “paccaya” can come into play in Paticca Samuppāda. I have discussed a few, but not the “upanisa paccaya.” See #6 through #8 in “What Does “Paccayā” Mean in Paṭicca Samuppāda?“
6. Finally, regarding Dosakkhayo’s question: “Why is dukkha the ‘upanisā‘ of saddha?”
- When one understands the “purāna kamma” stage (which we will discuss), that will help build saddha by seeing that the beginning of future ” dukkha” is at the “purāna kamma” stage.
- With the standard PS, we have seen that strong kamma arise via vaci and kaya sankhara. But the “root problem” is with the “distorted sannā” in the “purāna kamma” stage, even if no strong kamma accumulated there.
7. Another critical point is the following. Attachment to a sensory input (ārammana) DOES NOT happen in one shot. As we know, attachment happens over seconds to minutes to hours. Even within a second, there will be many citta vithis running through the mind. Each subsequent citta vithi is strengthened by the previous one. Thus, the attachment will keep increasing, and we will start doing strong kamma later in the process.
- However, one can stop the “nava kamma” generation if one is mindful.
- To stop the “purāna kamma” stage, one must cultivate insight meditation by fully understanding the process. That is the deeper version of Satipatthana.
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Living Arahants can experience only the “saririka vedana” in the physical body (like injuries, sicknesses, etc.) They do not experience “mental suffering.”
- One could think of Sankhara dukkha, viparinama dukkha, and dukkha dukkha as dukkha vedana.
- But they are also the CAUSES of future suffering.
- Arahants do not engage in those and also are not affected by them.
There are many ways to think about Sankhara dukkha, viparinama dukkha, and dukkha dukkha.
- For example, when someone attaches to an arammana, they start doing sankhara with avijja. That leads to “heating the mind” while doing them and also leads to future suffering.
- Whenever one is engaged in “avijja paccaya sankhara,” that moves them away from the “pabhassara mind.” That is going backward or “viparinama.”
- Whenever a mind attaches to a “disliked arammana,” that causes “heating or stress in mind.” But then they keep thinking about it and generate more “stressful thoughts,” and that leads to a second round of suffering based on the same arammana. P.S. The Buddha compared that to being pierced by a spear twice: “Salla Sutta (SN 36.6.)“
- I will write about those in upcoming posts. We can see various levels of suffering depending on how deep one goes!
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I don’t disagree with much of what Christian and Saket stated. However, my thoughts are the following.
1. Those who follow different “sects/traditions” of Buddhism do that mainly because they are “born into families” who follow that particular tradition.
- Most of them don’t know much about other traditions.
2. Even within Theravada, there is “ritualism” to a significant extent.
- The best example is the practice of “breath meditation” as Anapanasati. Isn’t that a ritual?
3. Even regarding the doctrine, most current Theravada texts translate “anatta” as “no-self” and put down the concept of gandhabba as a “Mahayana concept.”
4. I made the mistake of trying to engage in debates about points #2 and #3 in the Dhamma Wheel forum for several years.
- Such debates are mostly unproductive. One cannot persuade others by engaging them with a “debate mindset.” It actually hurt my practice. Now that I have given up that effort, my mind is more clear.
- I may have also hurt some (unintentionally) because my engaging them made them angry with me. Some made nasty comments about me, which can only hurt them. Of course, I forgive all of them; I never had any animosity toward anyone. I was very frustrated about why some people could not see logic and reasoning. But now I understand that is just how it is.
5. We should present our interpretations; anyone interested will read/listen. We can certainly do our best to answer and engage them if they have questions and willingly engage.
- hat goes for people from other religions as well.
- In fact, I don’t perceive Buddha Dhamma as a religion. That is because the Buddha was not a “savior” who could “save” others if they placed faith in him. No one can “save” anyone else. The Buddha only taught how people get into more future suffering because they do not comprehend the “real nature of this world.” Anyone who can see the truth of that worldview will also see how to live their lives to stop future suffering.
P.S. The Buddha stated that trying to persuade those unwilling to listen is a foolish deed, like trying hard to court a woman who has repeatedly said “no.”
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That is correct.
- To get to either the “Arahant phala samāpatti” or the “Nirodha samāpatti,” an Arahant‘s mind needs to transcend kāma dhātu (i.e., kāma loka), rupa dhātu (i.e., rupa loka), and arupa dhātu (i.e., arupa loka.)
- While in either of those samāpatti, an Arahant‘s mind does not receive any sensory inputs.
- No cittās arise in “Nirodha samāpatti,” let alone saññā.
- “Arahant phala samāpatti” is where only PURE cittās with undefiled saññā (i.e., without “distorted saññā“) arise.
Those are technical points. If anyone is unfamiliar with those terms, don’t worry about it. It is not necessary to understand those.
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Yes. It is a good summary. Thank you, Saket.
- The following is an essential point that Saket emphasized: “When one reaches Arahant stage, all kinds of gathi are removed, hence the possibility of any future lives is eliminated. Although all gathi are removed but still distorted sanna arises in an Arahant because the old hadaya vatthu is still present.”
- I would add that the “old physical body” that Arahant lives with still plays a critical role in bringing the “distorted saññā” to Arahant‘s mind. However, the hadaya vatthu has gotten rid of all anusaya/samyojana. Thus, Arahant‘s mind would not attach to that “distorted saññā” presented by the physical body.
- P.S. Another way to say the above: “Arahant‘s (and also Anāgami‘s) mind gets to the “kāma dhātu” stage but not to “kāma bhava.”
- Note that “gathi” there refers to “gati” as written in English/Latin alphabet in “Tipitaka English.”
- “Gati” is pronounced as “gathi.”
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