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-“Therefore, I say, with the destruction, fading away, cessation, giving up, and relinquishing of all conceivings, all excogitations, all I-making, mine-making, and the underlying tendency to conceit, the Tathagata is liberated through not clinging.” (MN72§15, Bodhi, and there are many more).
13. “Venerable sir, how does one know, how does one see, so that in regard to this body with its consciousness and all external signs, there is no I-making, mine-making, and underlying
tendency to conceit?” “Bhikkhu, any kind of material form (rupa) whatever, whether past
or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior [19] or superior, far or near – one sees all material form as it actually is with proper wisdom thus: “This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’ Any kind of feeling whatever.. .Any land of perception whatever…Any kind of formations whatever…Any kind of consciousness whatever.. .one sees all consciousness as it actually is with proper wisdom thus: “This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’ It is when one knows and sees thus that in regard to this body with its consciousness and all external signs there is no I-making, mine-making, or underlying tendency to conceit.” (MN109, Bodhi)This is mine. This arises through craving (tanha,gaha). This is in the sutta’s called mine-making.
“This i am”. This arises through conceit (mana,gaha).
-“This is myself”. This arises due to wrong view (ditthi,gaha). This i called i-making.This is how it is being explained. All i say is comform sutta’s and experience.
It is very obvious, also from a direct experimental of practical view, that identification with rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana leads to affliction, just like many sutta’s teach. So one has to break with this fetter/habit, sakkaya ditthi, and stop viewing rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana, as Me and mine.
Siebe
Sakkaya ditthi is explained in MN44. In that sutta, but many others, it becomes perfectly clear that sakkaya ditthi’s are identity-views like: “i am the body”, or “the body is mine’. Or, “i am feeling, or ‘feeling is mine’. This repeated for the other khandha’s too. There are also other sakkaya ditthi’s but i belief these are the main and most recognisable ones.
So, as long as one sees rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana as Me or mine the first fetter of sakkaya ditthi is still present. The consequence is that when changes happen in rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana and one sees these as Me of mine, one gets afflicted, many sutta’s teach. So, to end this affliction one must see with wisdom and see one is not rupa, vedana, sankhara and vinnana nor are those ours. many sutta instruct us to see rupa, vedana, sankhara, sanna and vinnana like this: this i am not, this is not mine, not myself’.
SN22.89 explains that once sakkaya ditthi has endded one has no views like this anymore: “I am this”…with regard to the khandha’s, but there still lingers a conceit “I am” in regard to the khandha’s. That had not ended yet.
That will end too when one keeps contemplating rise and fall of the khandha’s.
I do not know what is your problem with this. It is just described in the sutta’s that grasping rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana as me and mine, happens all the time. It is it one of the main causes for affliction/stress. The asava of views created these affliction.
An arahant is described as a person (or better, mind) without I-making and mine making.
Changes in rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana do not afflict that mind anymore.
Even if the body would fall apart due to poison of a snake, a sutta shows, mind without I and mine-making does not become disturbed. Mind without I and mine-making does also not perceive “I now enter this or that jhana” or “I now leave this or that jhana”. A sutta tells this was how Sariputta experienced it. He was totally free from I and mine-making. A true arahant.I belief the sutta’s make clear that the identification with the ever arising stream of conditioned phenomena in the mind (rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana) is part of what is called wrong identity-view, sakkaya ditthi.
We constantly graps at those arising phenomena, at this ever changing stream, as ‘me’ and ‘mine’. This habit is going on since beginningless time.
Our ingrained idea or perception that we are this constant arising stream of phenomena is described as the first and most important fetter that has to end trough wisdom, sakkaya ditthi.
So i find it strange that people keep insisting that we are only an ever arising stream of mental and physical processes. It seems to me this kind of thinking is feeding sakkaya ditthi.
Moreover, if there is nothing more for us to discover then that we are only an ever changing stream of mental and phyiscal processes, then aiming at ending this stream, is the same as aiming at non-existence. Right?
Yes, i admit, i am worried about this goal and people aiming at this goal. I cannot see this is a nobel goal. In my opinion this is vi-bhava tanha. The desire not to suffer in the future from the idea that after death one does not exist anymore. I think this is no striving for Nibbana nor any seeking for truth.
I hope you do not hold this against me, but i belief Buddhism would be an extremely negative religion if it would aim at stopping the khandha’s to arise, while at the same time you and i would be nothing more than those five khandha’s. We would aim at going out like a flame after death, and nothing, nothing, would remain?
Why would one want to go out like a flame with nothing remaining? Is life really such a burden, or is the burden the defilement in the mind? I wonder, are those people who want to go out like a flame with nothing remaining, not driven by vi-bhava tanha, the longing not to exist anymore?
Christian: “Delusion is not about you being this or that but not seeing things as they are”
Yes, that’s comes down to the samen. Not seeing/understanding that it is no entity-I who does hear, see, live, die, smell, feel etc. is not seeing things as they are.
The basic delusion is all about identity Christian.
Even the first fetter, sakkaya ditthi, is about identity. This is explained in MN44. Our ingrained habit to identify with rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana, is sakkaya ditthi. Also, our ingrained habit to think that rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana are ‘mine’, is sakkaya ditthi. This is word by word explained in MN44.
The other subtle notion of ‘I am’ is called asmi mana and is also about identity. In normal language we talk about this as ego. It is the perception that we are a kind of steady mental entity. A mental entity which has needs like being seen, being respected, being loved, nurtured. It is in need of pleasure, status, power etc.
Mana does not need to be bad. If mana leads to the ending of mana, mana is oke. This is said in Nettippakarana, one of the guides of the Tipitaka.
Please read SN22.89 in which the arising and the vanishing of the notion I am is explained.
A normal human being cannot seperate asmi mana from the mind. A normal being thinks ego or the notion I am, is the nature of his/her mind. In other words, for a normal human being mind and ego are the same. The Buddha was able to see that asmi mana is also just an adventitious defilment and not intrinsic to mind. Mind can get rid of asmi mana. An heavy burden get lost.
-“The state of dispassion in the world is happiness, the complete transcending of sense desires, But for he who has removed the conceit ‘I am’— this is indeed the highest happiness.”
Siebe
These are some sutta’s in which kamma is listed as a possible cause for unfortunate things one could experience. Those sutta’s clearly suggest Buddha’s view was not: “‘Everything this individual experiences—pleasurable, painful, or neutral—is because of past deeds.’
https://suttacentral.net/sn36.21/en/sujato
https://suttacentral.net/an5.104/en/sujato
https://suttacentral.net/an10.60/en/sujatoMaybe from these lists of possible causes stems the idea to introduce other causes, nyiama’s, and to see kamma as a seperate cause for illnesses, affliction etc. and to introduce other causes like medical causes (bile, phlegm etc) or causes related to climate, and other extern causes.
Often people wonder if some unfortunate event is due to kamma. I know some sangha make use of the nyiama’s. They use them in such a way that if one can find medical causes, external causes or causes related to climate, one can drop the idea it is due to past bad deeds.
For this is find no support in the sutta’s.Siebe
The impression that there is someone inside us experiencing something is part of delusion. The sutta’s are very clear about this, right?
The notion of an-I-who-does-the-experiencing is yet part of our make-up. It arises due to latent tendency, mana-anusaya. This anusaya gets triggered when there is sense-contact. So, when there is sense-contact, there almost immediately arises the notion of an entity-I who sees, who hears, who thinks, who, speaks, who lives, who feels etc.
Still, this I-notion is not inherent to mind. Just like emotions, it comes and goes. But it is very subtle and it is very hard to see it coming and going. But the sutta’s and buddhist masters are clear, it is not really the nature of the mind, but an adventitious defilement clouding the nature of mind, i.e. clouding to see what really does the experiencing.
An “I” does not experience Nibbana, just as an I does not even experience a sound in daily life. This experiencer-I is the basic delusion, this sanna of an I who does the experiencing. There is also no I who experiences jhana. This is all delusion.
Masters who have reached arahatta magga tell us that when the center from which we experience the world vanishes, or, in other words, when the I-perspective in the mind totally vanishes, then what reveals itself at that moment, that will make an end to avijja.
One sees the truth about oneself. People who have reached this point describe it as ‘mind experiencing mind’ or seeing ones own true face or seeing ones true self, i.e. seeing this is no entity-I. They also describe it as unborn dimension, all-pervasive, deathless, just like the sutta’s do.
I think there is a difference between abhidhamma and sutta.
Sutta’s list karma as one cause of many other causes for sickness, discomfort, bad feelings. If you want i will provide the sutta’s, but they are treated here earlier.
In contact with the Jains the Buddha also made clear that painful feeling can just be phyiscal and not result of bad deeds but result of painful practises. In other words, anyone will feel pain when doing certain things. If i have not jogged for a long time, and i start, i will feel pain. Do i really have to belief this pain is due to a bad past deed? I do not. This pain is just phyiscal and not rooted in past bad deeds.
But, as i understand from lal, Abhidhamma sees any sense experience as a kamma-vipaka. So whatever we see, feel, smell etc. comes to us as a kamma-vipaka. And the logic is, when this is painful it is due to a bad kamma, and when is it nice it is due to good kamma.
This is not really open for any debate.
As i said, on this topic, i feel, there is a difference between sutta’s and abhidhamma. Sutta is more open for the idea that not all we experience is some retribution of past good and bad deeds. But again, from Abhidhamma perspective this is not open for any debate.
Siebe
If it would be really true that we are only a series of mental and physical processes, and they would end at the death of an arahant, to never arise again, then is very obvious that an arahant or Tathagata does not exist after death! Does the Buddha teach this? No! This position he does not teach. Why not, if it would be true that an arahant is only the khandha’s?
In the sutta’s the Buddha instructs us to see and understand that any rupa, past, present, future, subtle, far, nearby, gross etc., any vedana, any sanna, sankhara and vinnana is not me, not mine, not myself. This is a basic instruction of the Buddha repeated on and on in khandha samyutta and many other places.
For example here: https://suttacentral.net/sn22.45/en/sujatoThe Buddha wants to show us that whatever has the characteristic to arise, exist a while and cease, i.e. anything conditioned, we are not and is not mine. It is of no worth and it does not relate to who we really are. For example: vaci sankhara can stop, but when these stop, does one stop to exist? No. So, it is evidence-based we are not vaci sankhara. As example.
So, the Budddha clearly instructs that we must stop thinking we are those phyiscal and mental processes, whether it is rupa, vedana, vinnana etc.
This wrong thinking is going on since beginningless time. Now is the time to end this wrong habit that we are mental and phyiscal processes.The fact that we, at this moment, see/understand rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana as me and mine, that is exactly what delusion means. We have sakkaya ditthi, mistaken identity views, such as: ‘I am the body i experience,’ or ‘I am what i feel’ or Í am what i am aware of’,or ..’the body is mine’, or ‘what i experience is mine’. These sakkaya ditthis are treated in MN44: https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/sujato
So, the idea that we are a series of mental and phyiscal processes, a constant changing flux of processes, is exactly the wrong identity views we have to abandon.
So, from evidence from the sutta’s it is very clear that the Buddha does not teach we are the khandha’s. He teaches that this mistaken idea is de basic delusion present in any living being, except arahants and Buddha’s. Since beginningless time mind gets absorbed in what it experiences while it begins to see it as me and mine.
In my opinion, there cannot be a refuge for a living being if Nibbana is one thing and ‘a living being’ would be something completely different. If Nibbana would be one thing and a living being or mind would be something completely different, it is impossible to ever realise or even experience Nibbana. In other words, if Nibbana would be alien to ourselves we are lost.
We will never be able to make a refuge of ourselves, if, in deepest sense, we would only be unstable mental and phyiscal processes. I do not understand why this is not clear. Peace would be absolutely impossible when we are only fleeting processes.
The Buddha does not teach we are these fleeting processes. It is the other way around. He instructs us in many sutta’s to see that we are not those unstable mental and phyiscal processes. That insight will open the gate to the unconditioned.
While identifcation with rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana (anything conditioned) weakens, we become more and more stable. How is this possible when anything about us would be unstable?
Siebe
Christian: “You trying to first experience things without approaching Dhamma in practical/experiential way…”
That is not true.
Siebe
A sutta in Udana states that if there were not the unconditioned, an escape from the conditioned is impossible. This is for me the crux of buddha-dhamma. The only thing that can count as a real refuge is the unconditioned. It is the only stable element.
This stable element is ever present and all pervasing. Also now. It cannot be not present. With the unconditioned no arsing can be seen, no vanishing and no changing in the meantime, a sutta teaches. It differs from the conditioned because with the conditioned an arising can be seen, an ending and change in the meantime.
The Buddha teaches us the Path to the unconditioned and that starts by seeing the unconditioned. The unconditioned is not something which will be only present in the future, after long search and practice, but it can be seen immediately. The unconditioned is in no way result of practise, in no way result of vigour, in no way a result of anything.
You ask: Can you explain what else is there in a human being or any other living being?
It is the unconditioned element, Nibbana. Nibbana is always present, and it can only be obscured by adventitious defilements. It is due to defilements that Nibbana is not immediately experienced or seen by us or mind. It does not take any time to see Nibbana, but it takes time to remove obscurations, defilements. The aim of practice is to remove obscurations so what is allready present, ultimate peace, the unconditioned, will reveal itself. Like the sun reveals itself when clouds dissapear. I belief that is a very nice and accurate analogy. Also in jhana more and more obscurations dissappear. As a natural result mind gets more and more subtle, pliant, peaceful and applicable. It is only due to the effect of obscuration that our mind is not all the time pliant, peaceful and so applicable.
Also, the Buddha teaches in many sutta’s to see rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, and vinnana as: ‘this i am not, this is not mine, this is not myself’. I belief, this is not only some skillful means, but sutta’s clearly state this is how it is. We are not the khandha’s and we do not posess them too. Both views- thinking we are the khandha’s and that we possess khandha’s- are sakkaya ditthi (see MN44).
It is only the influence of defilements such as wrong view and avijja and tanha which makes us to belief we are the khandha’s or think that we possess them. This I-making and mine making is defiling the mind. As long as we function this way, rebirth continues. When this spell/delusion ends rebirth also ends.
But even in this life the nature of an arahant or Buddha cannot be explained/designated anymore in terms of khandha’s. Even while others think the rupa (body) they see, is the Buddha, this is not ultimately true. Likewise, the real nature of any living being cannot really be explained in terms of khandha’s, also not our own nature. But, still, as a result of I-making and mine-making we keep making such wrong identity views.
The unconditioned element reveals itself spontaneously, effortless, when obscuration are eliminated with effort.
If you or Christian or anyone else with magga phala cannot agree on this, that would really surprise me. If you really do not agree, i would appreciate a contentual comment, because i want to really understand what is wrong.
At the moment, I belief, all i say is in line with Buddha-Dhamma.
Christian, i do not a moment belief in your compassion or concern for my welfare. I see a mind-set which does not not care about people’s welfare. You do not even care if your words are warm, welcome or helpful. You do not even know what is right speech.
When you see any lack of understanding, with me or others, your words often border on anger.
Somehow you seem to enjoy belitteling people.Siebe
I do not really understand this Lal. If a human being, if we, are nothing more than an ever changing composition of rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana (which i do not belief), how can the ending of all that we are be good for oneself? It would mean that one stops to exist in any way.
Is that good for oneself? Is it good for oneself not to exist anymore? I cannot belief this is buddha-dhamma.
siebe
