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Good. You understand what sakkāya diṭṭhi is.
- But what is meant by “sakkāyotipi” in that verse verse before sakkāyadiṭṭhi?
- I will give you a hint “sakkāyotipi” is shortened for “sakkāyo” and “itipi” where “itipi” means something like “there/like this.”
So, the Pali verse, “Daharassa hi, mālukyaputta, kumārassa mandassa uttānaseyyakassa sakkāyotipi na hoti, kuto panassa uppajjissati sakkāyadiṭṭhi?” means “a little baby doesn’t even have a concept of “sakkāyo” so how could “a wrong view about sakkāyo” arise in him?
- What is “sakkāyo”?
- I am trying to lead you to a better understanding. Of course, you may know the answer, but I want to make sure.
I will address your question about the baby after we discuss the above issue.
Gad asked: “How can we know which faculties are most appropriate for ourselves? I understand that only a Lord Buddha is able to give us the best training. Are there other ways that can bring us closer to the best?”
It is a good idea to understand the sutta from the beginning. Otherwise, what is meant by “faculties” may not be clear.
1. First, understand the samyojanā (translated as “fetters”). Do you understand those?
- Focus on the lower three (removed at the Sotapanna stage) or the lower five (removed at the Anagami stage.)
- Removal of the lower three stops rebirths in the apayas. Removal of the lower five stops rebirths in kama loka.
- The link you provided lists of all ten samyojanā.
2. Then the sutta mentions this question by the Buddha: “For Mālunkyaputta, an infant lying on its back, does not have even the concept of identity, so how could the self-identity view arise in him?”
- Have you understood why that is the case?
- The Pali verse is: “Daharassa hi, mālukyaputta, kumārassa mandassa uttānaseyyakassa sakkāyotipi na hoti, kuto panassa uppajjissati sakkāyadiṭṭhi?”
- In Sutta Central translation, the same verse is translated as: “For a little baby doesn’t even have a concept of ‘substantial reality,’ so how could substantialist view possibly arise in them?” See “Mahāmālukya Sutta (MN 64.)“
3. As we can see, the two translations have sakkāyotipi /sakkāyadiṭṭhi translated as concept of identity/self-identity view and substantial reality/substantialist view. Do you understand the meanings of those two words (sakkāyotipi and sakkāyadiṭṭhi)?
- I am not trying to put you in a difficult position. We need to clear up the basic concepts before we get to the end of the sutta.
- Of course, anyone else can answer those questions, too. This is a discussion forum, and anyone with a particular interpretation in mind can provide that interpretation. Then, it would be easier to discuss the validity of those interpretations rather than to provide my understanding.
I need to write a post to fully describe what I tried to explain with the analogy of an alcoholic in the above comment.
- There is a difference between hearing about a new concept from an Ariya (the Buddha called that “jānato“) and fully getting that concept to “sink into the mind” (which the Buddha called “passato“).
- One gets to the “jānato” step by learning a concept from an Ariya (kalyāna mitta). The rest (“passato“) is up to that person.
- An alcoholic who is unable to give up his drinking habit — even after learning about the dangers of being addicted to alcohol — is at the “jānato” stage. Some don’t try hard enough to reach the “passato” stage.
- Of course, any kalyāna mitta would do their best to help anyone get to the “passato” stage. It is challenging to explain deep concepts in Buddha Dhamma with short essays. One needs to make their best effort to understand; if certain statements are not clear enough (as in this discussion), don’t hesitate to point that out. That will help others, too.
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I have revised the following sentence quoted by TGS at the end:
“An Arahant, who has removed all āsāvās/anusaya/saṁyojana/gati by comprehending the true nature (“yathābhūta ñāna”), is free of “distorted saññā” and therefore of any attachments.”
- I can see how that could give a wrong impression.
That quoted part is in #10 of “Vedanā (Feelings) Arise in Two Ways.” The revision reads as follows:
“An Arahant will still experience “distorted saññā” while living everyday life (i.e., unless they are in a samāpatti.) But since they have removed all āsāvās/anusaya/saṁyojana/gati by comprehending the true nature (“yathābhūta ñāna”), they are free of attaching to “distorted saññā.”
- That means an Arahant fully comprehends how that “distorted saññā” arises. That means not merely understanding the mechanism but also meditating/contemplating it to convince the mind that it is a “trick.”
- Let me give an analogy for that latter point. An alcoholic may learn that drinking leads to health issues and even causes death. However, some alcoholics, even after comprehending that fact, still cannot get rid of their “drinking habit.” They must continually contemplate the harmful consequences of drinking to get rid of that habitual drinking.
- There is a definite “turning point” in regards to “attaching to the distorted saññā.” As one contemplates the concept of “distorted saññā”, “kāma rāga” (one of the ten samyojana that bind one to the rebirth process) wears out gradually and eventually disappears. That is when one gets to the Anāgāmi stage and is free of rebirths in kāma loka. An Arahant has progressed even beyond that and removed “rupa rāga” (cravings for rupāvacara jhāna) and “arupa rāga” (cravings for arupāvacara samāpatti) as well. They are free of rebirths in rupa loka and arupa loka as well.
- It is essential to get this right. Let me know if there are any further questions.
P.S. Comprehending this “nature’s trick” of “distorted saññā” also helps one reach the Sotapanna stage. It makes it easier to see the “anicca nature,” i.e., the futility/dangers of attaching to worldly things.
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Those are different types of “kamma vipaka” that can materialize as a consequence of various types of kamma (actions/deeds.)
- The Sutta Pitaka does not have descriptions of many of them. What Gad quoted above are descriptions in the Commentaries.
- It is best to focus on how to stop doing any kamma. That CAN NOT be done with sheer willpower. That ability comes through understanding how our minds are fooled to crave worldly things. That is what the recent posts have been focused on “distorted saññā“: “Sotapanna Stage via Understanding Perception (Saññā).”
- However, it is good to know about various types of kamma vipaka.
What Gad wrote at the end, starting with “The types of Kamma and the way they give its consequences as a function of time and the third category of Kamma can be summarized as follows:” is a good summary of the types of kamma vipaka.
- If anyone has specific questions, I can take a look. I have not had the time to read what Gad wrote in detail above the summary.
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Hello lodonyo,
I deleted that post some time back.
- There are only three stages of a sankhata: arising (uppada), staying for some time while undergoing change (tithi), and dissolution/destruction (bhanga.)
- Anything in this world is a sankhata. Any sankhata has the above three properties. That holds for a star like our Sun, Earth, anything on Earth, or even a single citta (loosely translated as a “thought”).
Once in a while, I delete or rewrite some posts. Unless a post is deleted, it should be available in the most recent version. If you cannot find one, please ask at the forum as you did.
Yes. You are right, Gad.
The following fact you quoted is the definitive: “This affirmation also contradicts the statement that “The sasana will disappear when the last jati sotāpanna dies.”
- There cannot be a Sotapanna from a previous Buddha Sasana in a new Buddha Sasana. The previous Buddha Sasana must end before that.
I am glad that you thought about it and corrected me. Thank you!
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Gad asked: “So sir, that means a person can become sotāpanna in this sāsana and become arahant in the time of Lord Buddha Metteya?? I believed that one cannot become sotāpanna until a Lord Buddha appears. The only ariyas who can see several Lord Buddha are the anagami brahmas.”
- A Sotapanna will not lose that status ever, until advancing to a higher stage.
- Buddha Kassapa and Buddha Gotama appeared in this maha kappa (eon), so there is not that much of a “gap” in time.
- On the other hand, an Anagami in a “suddhavasa” (Brahma realms reserved for Anagamis) have very long lifetimes extending to several eons. They could have seen Buddhas from previous maha kappas (eons) also.
- Yes. a person attaining the Sotapanna stage now could possibly attain Aranahthood in the upcoming Sasana of Buddha Maitreya (IF the seven bhava last that long; as we know a Sotapanna will attain Arahanthood within seven bhava.)
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Such “speedy progress” does not happen without causes.
- There is an interesting account of three people (Bāhiya, Pukkusāti, and Suppabuddha) who had attained magga phala quickly.
- Those three had met in the rebirth process during Buddha Kassapa’s time. At that time, they learned Dhamma from Buddha Kassapa and tried very hard to attain magga phala. They were so determined that they got to the top of a ravine by making a tall ladder and kicking it to fall after climbing. There was no way to get to safety if they could not make progress. They all died without getting there (some may have attained the Sotapanna stage) because all three were reborn humans during Buddha Gotama’s time. Each one made quick progress when they met Buddha Gotama (at different times.)
- The following suttas give their account: “Bāhiya Sutta (Ud 1.1),” “Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta (MN 140),” and “Suppabuddhakuṭṭhi Sutta (Ud 5.3).”
- All three died soon afterward, and a cow took their lives (at different times.) I have linked to that in the suttas.
- It turned out that they had abused a woman in a much earlier previous life, and she was determined to take revenge. She was born a cow during Buddha Gotama’s time and took their lives.
- I don’t recall where those connections are explained. The point is that their fast progress was not random.
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The reason is the following:
- One needs first to be released from the apayas at the Sotapanna stage. Then, release from the kama loka happens via the Sakadagami and Anagami stages. Finally, release from the rupa and arupa loka comes at the Arahant stage. It is always a sequential process.
- However, all those can happen while listening to a single discourse (or even a few verses in Ven. Bahiya’s case, which is extremely rare.) Also, those who make quick progress have done “much of the work” in their previous lives.
Gad wrote: “Venerable Arahant Sariputta became sotāpanna by listening to a single verse. It took him a few weeks to become an arahant. He dodged the other two stages of the magga phala. “
- If you meant Ven. Sariputta skipped the stages of Sakadagami and Anagami to get to the Arahant stage, that is incorrect.
- One ALWAYS goes through the four stages sequentially. He must have attained Sakadagami and Anagami stages before getting to the Arahant stage.
Excellent.
- This is precisely how one should do vipassana, not specifically to do what Dosakkhayo did above, but to contemplate critical concepts in many different ways.
- One should always try to apply new concepts to areas of interest, personal experiences, etc. That helps solidify the concepts in the mind.
- The more one becomes convinced of the truth of Buddha’s teachings, the easier it will be to progress in losing cravings for worldly pleasures.
- Even though an average human (puthujjana) cannot even think of a life without “sensory pleasures,” once one truly comprehends the concept of “distorted saññā” one starts to understand why the Buddha said being exposed to sensual pleasures is like being thrown into a fire pit: “Dukkhadhamma Sutta (SN 35.244).”
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“Āyatana” can mean different things depending on the context.
- The six “indriya” (cakkhu, sota, ghana, jivha, kaya, mano) become “āyatana” in a defiled mind. That is one context.
- But “āyatana” could be used in the context of “a place” too. That is the context in the verse you quoted.
I discussed that in the post “Nibbāna “Exists”, but Not in This World.” The following is from that post:
The “Paṭhama Nibbāna Paṭisaṃyutta Sutta (Ud 8.1)“. It says, “Atthi, bhikkhave, tadāyatanaṃ, yattha neva pathavī, na āpo, na tejo, na vāyo, na ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ, na viññāṇañcāyatanaṃ, na ākiñcaññāyatanaṃ, na nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṃ, nāyaṃ loko, na paraloko, na ubho candimasūriyā. Tatrāpāhaṃ, bhikkhave, neva āgatiṃ vadāmi, na gatiṃ, na ṭhitiṃ, na cutiṃ, na upapattiṃ; appatiṭṭhaṃ, appavattaṃ, anārammaṇamevetaṃ. Esevanto dukkhassā”ti.”.
- The first part is “atthi, bhikkhave, tadāyatanaṃ.” Here “atthi” means “exists,” and “tadāyatana” is another word for Nibbāna. tadāyatana comes from “tath” + “āyatana,” where “tath” (pronounced “thath”) means “perfect.” Since Nibbāna is something that we cannot define in terms of words, the closest English word for “āyatana” is something like “dimension” or “sphere.” This “āyatana” is not to be confused with the six āyatana referring to the six sensory faculties in “Nāmarūpa Paccayā Salāyatana.”
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Excellent. Thank you.
- Yes. We have happily engaged in the “rat race” for an unfathomable time.
- Only when a Buddha discovers the “illusion” (māyā) can we figure out the illusion and become free of the suffering-filled “rat race.”
- Note that to “meditate” (bhāvanā) primarily means “to understand the process of creation of this illusion.” Our own minds create the illusion!
- Once the mind is convinced that it is indeed an illusion, it voluntarily gives up craving for sensory pleasures. It helped me immensely to give up much of my cravings. No “pleasure/happiness” is intrinsic to anything in this world. The “deliciousness of a meal” is NOT in a meal; our bodies are designed (by kammic energy) to provide the “perception of taste.”
- Even an Arahant gets that perception of a “delicious meal” because they still have the physical body they were born with. But their minds have fully comprehended the illusion and have lost any interest in it. A little child builds a sandcastle because they appear mind-pleasing. Yet, they see the futility of engaging in that activity when they grow up and voluntarily give it up.
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