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Hello Sir Lal
I am not entierely convince by what you said.
Personnaly that don’t give me peace of mind because i still have kāma ragā. But i heard many monk and lays attain the Jhana with the sight of a dead body. The meditation center of Pa Auk in Burma use this kind of pratice. Of course they have wrong interpretations of the Dhamma. But they still had anariya Jhana.
In this sutta the Buddha invite Maha Mogallana to let his pratices and to lives like a regular bhikkhu. Maha Mogallana refuses and the Buddha asks why. He said he did for two reasons.
1. He was happy to living like that.
2. To encourage the futures generations to keeps this kind of pratices.
Lal i understand when you said that can be a ritual if we don’t have the right comprehension. But for me is really depend of the gati of each persons. Arahant Yasa was a lay before he becomes a bhikkhu and he was disgusted at the sight of the body of many young girls. This sight motives him to ordain. He quickly becomes arahant.
Maha Mogallana was in the perfect moment to stop this pratice he was Arahant already. No need for him to continue this but he keep it. His gati to pratice in the hard way and the benefice for the future generation. All persons is different.
In this Sutta the Buddha recommand to practice for reduces his desires that can be apply to all of the 13 Dhutaṅga.
You said that for a regular layman in a regular couple right? But what about a single layman who pratice the 8 precepts ??
Il y a les Sutta qui parlent du Duthanga de vivre dans le cimetière
Some of other Dhutaṅga
I thought again. The pratice of Asubha meditation with the sight of a dead body or other disgusting think can destroys Kama ragā and lead one at least to anagami phala. After that if this anagami continue to focus to the real signification (who mean all type of body even a brahma body is asubha) he will destroys rupa and arupa ragā. He will eventually becomes arahant by removing the others fetters. An arahant reject any kind of body and see asubha nature in all type of body presents in the 31 plans.
Asubha first level : removing kama ragā lead to anagami state, by the sight of disgusting nature in the body of a being in kāma Loka and also understand the incapacity to maintain our body beautiful and optimal to enjoy sensual pleasure. (For example the sex is just a fluid exchange) We will becomes a dead body eventually and we will not enjoy anymore the sensual pleasure. It is fruitless to craving the sensual pleasure. We can fall in the apayas if we are too attach to them. We would really have disgusting bodies in this worlds. For example a peta have a ugly stinky body . An niraya being can have the belly open with the torture and he or she have all type of ugliness. We see in the animal world the worm who born in the trash or all kind of bugs. A deva becomes suddenly old and lost all his beauty near death (in the deva world a old deva is the most disgusting sight). A human becomes old, stinky and becomes a dead body. Even when we are alive we eat and go to the bathroom after, we have all type of disease or disability who lead to ugliness. We had blood and organ.We will inevitably had a disgusting body if we don’t see the danger in sensual pleasure.
Asubha second level : removing arupa ragā and rupa raga. This the most and important. See the danger of all type of body in the Samsarā. A brahma as beautiful as he is will have to disappear and lose his brightness. He can eventually reborn in the apayas where the real ugliness are. (Of courses a anagami will reborn in a pure land but this worlds are not eternals) This example is more for the anariya brahma. Generates a body bring all kind of suffering and perpetuates the cycle of Samsarā. To no longer desire any type of body is happiness.
(Sorry for the repetitions i just want to be sure that anyone can understand what i want to says.)
Hello everyone
I am not agree with some. Just like Lal said we cannot said completely no. The vision of a dead body can lead someone to the anagami state. I think even the arahant state. The 13 dhutaṅga are the perfect example. The 13 dhutaṅga are the only ascetics practices recommanded by the Lord Buddha himself. They are mainly for the samgha but the lays can try some of them. If one pratices them with determination he can becomes arahant really easily. Leaving In a charnel houses or a graveyard is one of the 13. The Buddha recommand to leave in the cimetery to see the asubha nature frequently. Each of the 13 have différent level of pratice to 1 at 3. Arahant Maha Kassapa was the best praticionners in the 13 Dhutaṅga. Leaving among the dead with a good comprehension of the Dhamma developp the asubha meditation and one can easily destroys kama ragā with the right determination. (Asubha is not only for the body but also for the food. That can help some who eat more than necesserily.
Many monk developp the Jhana easily when they watch a dead body in real life. In some monastery in Theravada country some monk allow when they died to be exposes in front of the other for many days. The other can developp the asubha meditation. A dead body can become a kasina just like the other objects. One can also see his own dead body in a vision as a nimitta. In Pa auk center in Burma, many praticionners developp the Jhana with asubha meditation. I don’t think asubha developp Dosa that depend of the person. That’s why the Lord Buddha said the Dhutaṅga is only optional is not a obligation. In the Buddha time the monks who want to becomes arahant with the 13 dhutaṅga following Arahant Maha Kassapa. The Monk who want to becomes arahant with wisdoms follow Arahant Sariputta. Some who wants to developp the abhinnas follow Arahant Maha Mogallana.
(I think Pure Dhamma are more focus on Arahant Sariputta method like understand the main concept with wisdom.) That’s really great.
Also for us lays we need to have a open mind if one want to do not pratice in this way is okay but if one want to pratice in the other way is also okay. Each of this path lead to Nibbāna. For example me personnaly i don’t developp dosa when i see a dead body that just remind me the annica nature. When i was monk i read about this pratice i didn’t pratice them seriously but the next time if i ordain i want to try them.
For those who do not knows the 13 Dhutaṅga here
1. Wearing patched-up robes (pamsukula)
2. Wearing only three robes (tecivarika)
3. Going for alms (pindapatha)
4. Not omitting any house while going for alms (sapadanacarika)
5. Eating a single meal a day (ekasanika)
6. Eating only from the alms-bowl (pattapindika)
7. Refusing to accept any extra food (khalupacchabhattika)
8. Living in the forest (arannika)
9. Living under a tree (rukkhamula)
10. Living in the open air (abbhokasika)
11. Living in a cemetery (susanika)
12. Be satisfied with allotted dwelling (yathasantatika)
13. Sitter’s practice (nesajjika) – living in the three postures of walking, standing and sitting and never lying down
“Arahant Maha Kassapa: Father of the Sangha“
Thank you for the explanations Sir Lal 🙏🏿. I guess in this context when you said an arahant remove all gati that mean he end the cycle or rebirth who lead to the 5 realm. But in other case we see in the sutta some arahant had little gati right ? Like talk in a inapropriate way to other or jumping above puddle. Only a Lord Buddha had remove all idiosyncrasy if i understand well.
Yes Sir Lal in the first possibility around my 17 i was confronting at the suffering of a teenager like a break up. That experience make me thinking alot why i suffer for this? If i remember well i was thinking unconsciouly about the annica nature. Yesterdays i was happy with this person today we are separate. The thing not remain the same. They are changing. Of course at this time i use the banal signification of annica. After that i start to read and i came accross Buddha’s biography. That was the beginning of this.
For the second possibility that can be the anusaya of micca dithi ?? I heard about some people had different type of anusaya who are predominant. Some had sensual pleasure, micca ditthi, anger etc..
So sir in the third possibility if i understand well we can have many Gati at the same time??
In this sutta, the Lord Buddha warns venerable Ananda about judging the spiritual progress of someone else. He said only a Buddha can judge appropriately about that. He also talks about six kinds of people in this world. In this sutta, we can also see two brothers, isadatta and Purana. Both of them becomes Sakadagamin and are reborn in Tusita heaven after their death. During his life, Isadatta had a great pānna but still craved kama and stayed married. During his life, Purana was single and had a great sīla but not enough pānna. That shows everyone has his own gati but still can progress on the path. We cannot judge someone with our limited perception.
“Migasālā Sutta: Discourse on Migasālā“
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“Six stages of the passage of Theravāda Pali Canon -From the Buddha’s mouth to digitalization“
This article shows how the Dhamma came to us throughout the age. Of course, this article didn’t talk about the bad interperetation like the real signification of Tilakkhana and other crucial them of the Dhamma. But is still interesting.
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Thank you for this explanation Sir Lal. For complete what you saying arahant Maha Mogallana was the mara devaputta in the sasana of lord Buddha Kakusandha and the uncle of the actual mara devaputta. He commit many misdeeds against the samgha and reborn in the niraya for a very long time.
Many buddhists have the wrong view (include me before) that mara devaputta are the pure evil and the same being throughout the eons just like satan in christians religion. With this clarification we understand he just another being who are trap in the samsara and he can achieve Nibbāna aswell.
Sorry for the mistakes i mean one can becomes a pacceka buddha as a layman and after that he will quit to becomes a ascet
Hello everyone I found this also. That’s interesting the previous Pacceka Buddha that appeared in this world was Matanga. He attain parinibbãna shortly before the birth of Lord Buddha Gautama. Also, a person can become a Pacceka Buddha as a layperson. Of course, he will become an ascetic before attaining Pacceka Buddha status.
Private or Solitary Buddha (Pacceka Buddha) in Theravada Buddhism
