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Hi,Lal
I have a question while reading this post: Sotapanna Stage and Distorted/Defiled Saññā
#5
“The arupāvacara Brahmās (in arupa loka) cannot generate rupa saññā (sight) and sadda saññā(sound) either. They only have the mind and can only think. Their thinking is also limited since they have no concept of sights, sounds, etc. That is why they feel much less stress, too! Their minds are mostly focused on ākāsa (space) and viññāṇa. But they also have a “defiled Saññā” about ākāsa and viññāṇa.”The last sentence says that arupavacara Brahamas have ‘defiled sanna’.
But, I thought it’s not ‘defiled sanna’, but it’s ‘distorted sanna’. Because this is how I understand it.
i) When living being generates ‘defiled sanna’, it automatically creates abhisankhara and kamma vinnana.
ii) But arupavacara Brahmas don’t generates kamma.
So, I wonder if they not have ‘defiled sanna’, but ‘distorted sanna’.
Or does they have defiled sanna, but it’s not strong defiled sanna enough to lead to kamma generation?
If there is anything wrong with my explanation, please don’t hesitate to point it out.
With metta _()_
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Yes. In some early posts, I may have written “defiled saññā” instead of “distorted saññā.” It should ALWAYS be “distorted saññā.”
- It is a bit tricky to translate “saññā vipallāsa.” Furthermore, in most cases, just saññā is used without explicitly referring to the fact that it is a “distorted saññā” that arises in anyone (The only exceptions are when an Arahant is in Arahant-phala samapatti or nirodha samapatti. ) When engaging in day-to-day activities, even an Arahant generates a “distorted saññā” because it is built into our bodies. For example, an Arahant will taste honey to be sweet because it is a “distorted saññā.” However, Arahant’s mind will not be attached to that taste, i.e., they don’t generate raga, dosa, moha because of the“distorted saññā.”
- I have revised that post (including the title): “Sotapanna Stage and Distorted Saññā.”
You wrote: “The last sentence says that arupavacara Brahamas have ‘defiled saññā’.”
- I revised it to: “they also have a “distorted saññā” about ākāsa and viññāṇa.”
- They also attach to that “distorted saññā” since they had cultivated anariya arupavacara samapatti.
You wrote: “i) When living being generates ‘defiled saññā’, it automatically creates abhisankhara and kamma vinnana.”
- It should be “i) When living being generates ‘distorted saññā’, it automatically creates abhisankhara and kamma vinnana.”
- That is correct, as long as the corresponding samyojana are not broken. Arahants do not generate abhisankhara and kamma vinnana via ‘distorted saññā.’
You wrote: “ii) But arupavacara Brahmas don’t generates kamma.”
- They do generate kamma via attaching to the ‘distorted saññā’ because they have not removed arupa raga samyojana.
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Thank you for your response.
That’s a good point. I didn’t know arupavacara Brahamas generate kamma. I knew it was impossible for them to generate kamma.
I recently read this post : Taṇhā – Result of Saññā Giving Rise to Mind-Made Vedanā
#2
However, rupa loka Brahmās automatically receive “rupa saññā” or “saññā of the respective jhāna.” For example, those in the lower realms receive the “saññā of the first jhāna,” and those in the higher realms receive the “saññā of the corresponding higher jhāna.” However, they only generate saṅkhāra to “enjoy such distorted saññā” but do not generate new kamma (with abhisaṅkhāra) that can generate “bhava energy.”
A similar process holds for the anariya arupa loka Brahmās. No new kamma can be generated (to a significant extent) while in that existence. It is like taking a “long vacation” and returning home. Usually, the abhisaṅkhāra generation starts with “kāma saññā” (in kāma loka), as we discuss in #7 below.
I think I read this part(especially that two bold sentences) and thought as above. (rupa/arupavacara Brahmas can’t generate kamma)
But I understand your explanation. They have distorted sanna and also defiled sanna if there remain samyojana/anusaya. So they attach anariya arupa samapatti and generate kamma. But that kamma isn’t strong enough to generate new bhava energy.
Is my understanding right?
With metta_()_
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Yes. It is a subtle point.
- Rupavacara and arupavacara Brahmas‘ minds only go through the “purana kamma” stage. Since they attach to the initial “distorted sanna,” they do generate abhisankhara. However, they do not generate strong kammic energies that lead to rebirth. (All living beings have generated enough kammic energies to bring numerous rebirths while in the kama loka. Thus, those Brahmas will be reborn in lower realms after dying from those realms.)
- Potent/strong kammic energies that can lead to new rebirths are generated in the “nava kamma” stage, particularly when engaging in kaya, vaci, and mano kamma. You may have noticed that the “nava kamma stage” is absent in the charts showing rupa and arupa loka. See, for example, the chart above #13 in “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation,” which I reproduce below.
Download/Print: “Purāna and Nava Kamma -3“
- The “nava kamma” stage is where the “cone” expands to show the “growth of vinnana” or the ‘accumulation of new and potent kamma.” That “expanding cone” is present only in kama loka. In that context, rupa and arupa loka Brahmas DO NOT have dense bodies to generate kaya kamma (to engage in killing, stealing, and sexual misconduct). Furthermore, since they are not aware of such actions (e.g., no males/females in those realms), even corresponding vaci kamma ( with vaci sankhara) can not happen.
- In #13 in the above post, I wrote the following: “For example, anariya Brahma in a “rupa loka Brahma realm” only receives the “distorted saññā” of “rupāvacara jhānic sukha” and will automatically attach to it with “saññā vipallāsa.” They do not accumulate more kamma but will return to kāma loka at the end of Brahma‘s life. Unlike in the kāma loka, there is no way to accumulate (strong) kamma in the rupa or arupa Brahma realms.”
- I just now revised the last sentence to emphasize that point: “Unlike in the kāma loka, there is no way to accumulate strong kamma (that can bring rebirths) while in the rupa or arupa Brahma realms.”
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Regarding my above comment, also see #7 of the post, “Ārammaṇa (Sensory Input) Initiates Critical Processes.”
- These are details that cannot be discussed in one post.
- I started discussing “distorted saññā” with the post “Uncovering the Suffering-Free (Pabhassara) Mind ” posted on 8/5/23. All posts after this date can be found in “New/ Revised Posts.”
- Please feel free to ask questions from any of those posts. There could be minor errors in those early posts. Please refer to the specific post and the bullet # when asking questions.
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I have unlimited respect for your reply.
Your explanation contains a lot of insight.
I think I still don’t have enough understanding of Nava kamma and Purana kamma. I’ll read the post you recommended again.
- As mentioned in several posts, mano sankhara alone does not generate strong kammic energies that lead to rebirth. When we do vaci/kaya sankhara, the strong kammic energies is created.
- As you said, Rupavacara/Arupavacara Brahmas can’t think about speech and body action because they don’t have physical body like human. So they don’t generate vaci/kaya kamma.
- I also know the importance of Anapanasati/Satipattana Bhavana from your explanation. When we think with raga/dosa/moha, we must always mindfulness so that the defiled thoughts do not lead to vaci/kaya sankhara. Then, we are freed from large suffering.
Thank you always for your great work.
Sadhu🙏 Sadhu🙏 Sadhu🙏
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Yes. The “nava kamma” (meaning “new and potent kamma“) stage takes place only in the kama loka.
- Kammic energies that can give rise to new existences are not accumulated while in the rupa and arupa loka (Brahma realms.)
- Another way to express the same idea is that the minds of those Brahmas do not reach the “upadana paccaya bhava” step in Paticca Samuppada.
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