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Would like to share this sermon by Waharaka Thero. It brings some new perspective:
10.53 – Clarification of “Sabbe sankhara dukkha” It is not “everything” is dukkha, but the sankhara. We have been putting in a lot of effort, but the suffering is concealed by the reward at the end
22.40 – Clarification of first noble truth – here he brings in new interpretations I haven’t come across before:
He explains that jātipi dukkā does not mean “jati too is suffering”. He says that we cannot trick ourselves into thinking all jati is suffering. What about likeable arisings? What about those who are born to higher realms? He then gives further explanationsIt comes from “Jāti api dukkhā” shortened to “Jātipi dukkhā”. To figure out the meaning of “api”: He used “Api iriyāva” – Apriya meaning disliked. So “jati api” means disliked arisings (23.20). So disliked arisings is suffering. No one can deny this statement. Likewise for jarāpi dukkha – disliked decay is suffering. We cannot say that all decay is suffering, as decay of something bad is a good thing, eg decay of a headache. And the same for vyādhipi dukkha, maranampi dukkha.
This is fully fleshed out in “Appiyehi sampayogo dukkho” (associating with disliked is suffering) where the meaning of “api” really comes out (31.24) However, we live in a world where this always happens, it is the norm to associate with disliked, be separated from liked. Disliked arisings, decay and death always happens. This is where the anicca nature of the world comes in.
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Let us consider this one first:
“10.53 – Clarification of “Sabbe sankhara dukkha” It is not “everything” is dukkha, but the sankhara. We have been putting in a lot of effort, but the suffering is concealed by the reward at the end.”
- “Sabbe sankhara dukkha” means “All sankhara dukkha.” It does not say “everything” is dukkha. So, there is nothing “new” there.
- What do you understand by “dukkha?” Is it the feeling of “dukkha vedana“?
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Lal: “Sabbe sankhara dukkha” means “All sankhara dukkha.” It does not say “everything” is dukkha.” So, there is nothing “new” there.
That’s right, adding it there as a marker since it provides good elaboration.
Lal: What do you understand by “dukkha?” Is it the feeling of “dukkha vedana“?
I understand that dukkha can be a characteristic, as pointed out in Dukkha in Tilakkhana Is a Characteristic – Not Dukkha Vedanā, However, I think in this context, with Thero’s interpretation, it is more of Dukkha Vedana. In Saccavibhaṅgasutta, dukkha is also referred to as dukkha vedana:
Yaṁ kho, āvuso, kāyikaṁ dukkhaṁ kāyikaṁ asātaṁ kāyasamphassajaṁ dukkhaṁ asātaṁ vedayitaṁ – Physical pain, physical unpleasantness, the painful, unpleasant feeling that’s born from physical contact.
Also want to add a few more things to clarify:
We normally refer Jāti as the mundane, birth. But it seems like in this case the Jāti can refer to anything, even sights, viññana, vedana. In Jātidhammādisuttadasaka, we can see that all these things have jāti, jarā, byādhi, maranaṃ dhamma – liable to birth, decay, death. So it is possible that the jāti, jarā, byādhi, maranaṃ in the first noble truth also applies to these things, and not just the individual rebirth.
And for me it makes sense that these terms dont just apply to the individual because in the second line, it refers to everything: appiyehi sampayogopi dukkho, piyehi vippayogopi dukkho, yampicchaṁ na labhati tampi dukkhaṁ does not just refer to the self, but looks at all phenomenon in the world, which links better to the idea of Jāti of sights, viññana, vedana in the first line of the first noble truth.
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OK. Let us figure out the first part first.
- It is true that “dukkha” is the “dukkha vedana.”
- But I really wanted to ask: What do you understand by dukkha in “Dukkha Sacca” or the “First Noble Truth about suffering?”
Let me ask the question another way. Is the First Nbole Truth about getting rid of “bodily suffering” as expressed in your quote from theSaccavibhaṅga Sutta?: “Yaṁ kho, āvuso, kāyikaṁ dukkhaṁ kāyikaṁ asātaṁ kāyasamphassajaṁ dukkhaṁ asātaṁ vedayitaṁ – Physical pain, physical unpleasantness, the painful, unpleasant feeling that’s born from physical contact.”
- I hope you agree that it is not.
- Those verses explain what happens whenever “a new jati” is started. The subsequent several verses explain other issues such as old age associated with each jati.
- The point is that the Noble Truths are about stopping new births so that one can stop all drawbacks associated with them (stated @marker 10.2): “Jātipi dukkhā, jarāpi dukkhā, maraṇampi dukkhaṁ, sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsāpi dukkhā, yampicchaṁ na labhati tampi dukkhaṁ; saṅkhittena pañcupādānakkhandhā dukkhā.”
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Ah yes, my previous understanding of dukkha sacca before this sermon is that there is much suffering associated with the rebirth process, because they always come with decay and death. The dukkha in Saccavibhaṅga Sutta is an inevitable product of the rebirth process. There is not just physical but mental pain (yampicchaṁ na labhati tampi dukkhaṁ) in the rebirth process.
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OK. Now, can you think through it and rewrite it or better explain what you meant to say with the following in your first comment?
“10.53 – Clarification of “Sabbe sankhara dukkha” It is not “everything” is dukkha, but the sankhara. We have been putting in a lot of effort, but the suffering is concealed by the reward at the end.”
- By the way, I listened to the clip by Waharaka Thero, and he did not say anything controversial or new.
- Remember that “sankhara” are generated in response to the vedana one feels.
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I am not focusing on sabbe sankhara dukkha, but rather, his explanation of the first noble truth. You are right in that there is nothing new in his explanation of sabbe sankhara dukkha – we carry out sankhara and put in a lot of effort to achieve desirable things, but it is concealed by the likeable things, since we see them as worthy. I quote from the sermon (16.01) – “Is it fun to be working hard with the sweat running down your face? But that suffering gets concealed with one thing for which the worldly beings would keep on striving.”
What i found intriguing is this (23.20) – jātipi dukkā does not mean “jati too is suffering”. Rather, it is Jāti api dukkhā” shortened to “Jātipi dukkhā”. He used “Api iriyāva” – Apriya meaning disliked. So “jati api dukkha” means disliked arisings is dukkha.
I have not come across any interpretation like this before.
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All jati are undesirable. That is the explanation. No single “desirable jati” exists when one realizes that birth in any realm does not end suffering!
- Each and every jati is subject to: “Jātipi dukkhā, jarāpi dukkhā, maraṇampi dukkhaṁ, sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsāpi dukkhā, yampicchaṁ na labhati tampi dukkhaṁ; saṅkhittena pañcupādānakkhandhā dukkhā.”
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Lal:All jati are undesirable. That is the explanation.
That is not how Thero explains it. At 23.02, he says “Can the likable and preferred (priya manāpa) nature of arisings (jāti) be considered as suffering? They are not. It is to this likeable and delightful nature the world-beings are attracted to. “Jāti api dukkha – jātipi dukkha)”
Here it is clear that he is saying not all jāti is dukkha. This is why he had to clarify that only Jāti api (disliked jati) is dukkha (23.15)
He also says the same for marana. We cannot translate maraṇampi dukkhaṁ as death is suffering, because not all death is suffering. He elaborates (30.54) “We welcome the demise/ death (‘marana’) of disliked and afflictive arisings/ manifestations/ things (jāti). That would certainly be a pleasant experience. How can it ever be suffering? We need to be truthful in understanding Dhamma, without deceiving ourselves”
Again he has to clarify (31.18) “Maranam api dukkha” means disliked demise/ death is suffering.
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So, your only basis is the mundane interpretation of Waharaka Thero’s statement, not the sutta explanation. Of course, it is up to each person to decide.
- The whole verse in the sutta is “jātipi dukkhā, jarāpi dukkhā, byādhipi dukkho, maraṇampi dukkhāṃ, appiyehi sampayogo dukkho, piyehi vippayogo dukkho, yampicchaṃ na labhati tampi dukkhāṃ—saṅkhittena pañcupādānakkhandhā dukkhā.”
- That last part is the conclusion: “in brief, the origin of suffering is the craving for the five aggregates of rūpa, vedanā, saññā, saṅkhāra, viññāna (pancupādānakkhandha).”
- Every birth in any realm is based on “craving for the five aggregates of rūpa, vedanā, saññā, saṅkhāra, viññāna (pancupādānakkhandha).”
In a deeper sense, Waharaka Thero‘s translation still holds. Each and every birth is an “undesirable birth.” That realization comes when one starts comprehending the Noble Truths. Then one would not desire any birth but Nibbana.
- By the way, (concerning your first comment above) one does (abhi)sankhara based on the “craving for the five aggregates of rūpa, vedanā, saññā, saṅkhāra, viññāna (pancupādānakkhandha).” All such cravings stop only at the Arahant stage.
- In any case, if you are happy with your understanding, that is all that matters. I am not going to engage in debates. I gave that up when I stopped posting at the Dhamma Wheel discussion forum a couple of years ago. However, if anyone has questions about my explanation, feel free to ask.
P.S. I did not see Amin’s comment when I posted the above.
- I think the statement “The word “P” represents attachment” is not correct if he means “The word “pi” represents attachment.”
- For example, “Yampicchaṃ na labhati tampi dukkhaṃ” (in the long verse quoted above) is a shortened version of the verse (that rhymes). The expanded sentence is “Yam pi icchaṃ na labhati tam pi dukkhaṃ.”
- It is clear that “pi” in that short verse does not mean “attachment.” It is just a “connecting phrase.”
- As we can see, there are many different explanations. One is free to accept whichever makes sense to them. The endpoint is to understand the Noble Truths.
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I only intended to share another way of interpreting. I apologise if I brought anyone confusion, but I want to reiterate that the end conclusion is the same. It is because it is not possible to find a world where we will never experience disliked jāti, disliked jāra, disliked maranan because of the anicca nature of this world, that we have to find a solution to this. And the cause of disliked jāti, disliked jāra, disliked maranan, is tanha (second truth). Without tanha, will we find things likeable and dislikeable in the first place?
Amin has also shared a sermon with another interpretation of “p” = attachment. So Jatipi dukkha means attachment to Jati is dukkha. It is also something to contemplate about. Jati itself is not suffering, but our attachment to it causes suffering. We too can come up with end conclusion that the cause of suffering is from attachment.
From this, I wanted to ask if Jati in the first noble truth refers to all 3 kinds of Jati described in Jāti – Different Types of Births nameley 1) birth of being, 2) brith during lifetime, 3) birth of everything else in the world. If I am not wrong, for the posts about first noble truth on this site, the “birth of being” is the main definition used, but I wonder if you would agree if the second and third meaning also applies.
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1. Pathfinder wrote: “From this, I wanted to ask if Jati in the first noble truth refers to all 3 kinds of Jati described in Jāti – Different Types of Births ..”
- Yes. The following is at the beginning of that post:
Three Main Meanings of Jāti
The commonly-used meaning of jāti is “birth,” as in the birth of a human body. We celebrate “birthdays” based on the day someone was born in this life. As we see below, Buddha Dhamma has two other (different) meanings depending on the context.
- In the Uppatti Paṭicca Samuppāda, jāti means the birth in a new realm among the 31 realms. For example, a living being can be born as a human, animal, Deva, Brahma, etc.; that is a birth in that existence. See, “Akusala-Mūla Uppatti Paṭicca Samuppāda.”
- On the other hand, in Idappaccayātā Paṭicca Samuppāda, one can be “born” in countless “states” during a given lifetime. See #3 below.
- The above TWO are the main meanings of “jāti” in Buddha Dhamma. After understanding the concepts, one could use the same term appropriate for a given situation.
- Note that jāti is pronounced “jāthi” with “th” sound as in “three.” See “Tipiṭaka English” Convention Adopted by Early European Scholars – Part 1.”
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2. Pathfinder wrote: “Jati itself is not suffering, but our attachment to it causes suffering.”
- That is not correct. Any and all types of jati embed suffering.
- All suffering stops only when the causes and conditions for any jati in the rebirth process or during a lifetime (as in Idappaccayātā Paṭicca Samuppāda) stop.
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There is also another meaning of Jāti in that post:
8. When one gets deeper into Buddha Dhamma, one can see that everything in this world is “born” due to causes and effects, i.e., Paṭicca Samuppāda. For example, a tree is born out of a seed. A car is “born” in a factory. Paṭicca Samuppāda can describe all those.Do you think the jāti, jāra, maranaṃ of things outside of us is applicable in the Noble Truths as well? Eg jāti, jāra, maranaṃ of a car, a tree etc. Eg the Jāti of a painting does not matter to someone who is blind, but it does for someone who likes/ dislikes paintings and when they see it. The Jāti of a Buddha brings joy to many beings. The Venerable in Amin’s video also gave an example – the death (maranaṃ) of Bin Laden brought americans joy, but suffering to the Talibans.
Pathfinder wrote: “Jati itself is not suffering, but our attachment to it causes suffering.”
Lal: That is not correct. Any and all types of jati embed suffering.That makes sense, all Jāti embed suffering when we think of Uppatti Paṭicca Samuppāda jāti and Idappaccayātā Paṭicca Samuppāda jāti. It may be a bit different when we think about jāti, jāra, maranaṃ outside of us (with the example I gave about the painting and Bin Laden)
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Each birth ends in death with future uncertain. While a birth in higher realm would contain little suffering, that is also temporary and birth in the apaya (where most existences are) isn’t avoidable for those below the sotapanna stage, so there is net suffering. Additionally, the “pleasures” experienced in the higher realms are made up by the mind and incomparable to Nibbanic bliss anyway. Thus, the goal is to stop rebirth and end suffering for good. I don’t see why it needs to be more complicated than this.
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Pathfinder wrote:
“There is also another meaning of Jāti in that post:
8. When one gets deeper into Buddha Dhamma, one can see that everything in this world is “born” due to causes and effects, i.e., Paṭicca Samuppāda. For example, a tree is born out of a seed. A car is “born” in a factory. Paṭicca Samuppāda can describe all those.Do you think the jāti, jāra, maranaṃ of things outside of us is applicable in the Noble Truths as well?”
- Yes. Everything in the world arises via the mind. That is pointed out in the “Aggañña Sutta (DN 27)” See “Buddhism and Evolution – Aggañña Sutta (DN 27).” This is why the Buddha stated that “mind is the precursor to everything in this world”: “Manōpubbangamā dhammā..”
- “jāti dhamma” (those that arise via Paticca Samuppada) include “Partners and children, male and female bondservants, goats and sheep, chickens and pigs, elephants and cattle, and gold and money are all jāti dhamma.” See “Pāsarāsi Sutta (MN 26).”
- Note that the English translation in the above link is misleading/wrong: “Partners and children, male and female bondservants, goats and sheep, chickens and pigs, elephants and cattle, and gold and money are liable to be reborn.”
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Taryal wrote: “Each birth ends in death with future uncertain.”
- Yes. Even a Deva or Brahma would not know where their next birth is!
- All of us were born Deva and Brahma (and in the apayas) countless times in this rebirth process.
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Lal:
- “jāti dhamma” (those that arise via Paticca Samuppada) include “Partners and children, male and female bondservants, goats and sheep, chickens and pigs, elephants and cattle, and gold and money are all jāti dhamma.” See “Pāsarāsi Sutta (MN 26).”
- Note that the English translation in the above link is misleading/wrong: “Partners and children, male and female bondservants, goats and sheep, chickens and pigs, elephants and cattle, and gold and money are liable to be reborn.”
Is it correct to rephrase that all these rupa (Partners and children, male and female bondservants, goats and sheep, chickens and pigs, elephants and cattle, and gold and money) are dhamma (created by kammic energies) which has the characteristics of jati? And they are also dhamma which have the characteristics of jara, maranam.
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Yes. The kammic energies generated when one engages in akusala kamma (with abhisankhara) lead to two effects: (i) they can bring vipaka for that person in the future (for example, lead to rebirth in a given realm), and (ii) that energy also contributes to the preparation of the external environment (creating the environment necessary if it does not exist, or to maintain that environment).
- For example, when the Sun, Earth, and other planets are “re-formed,” initially, all four lowest realms are absent. Then, as people (Brahma-kayika humans) start gradually “going back to their old ways and engaging in akusala kamma,” they generate kammic energies not only for their own individual futures but also collectively to make the environment for such birth to occur.
- For example, the animal realm is likely to emerge first. Initially, the environment for animals to survive (vegetation) was absent. With the collective kammic energy being generated, that environment emerges first. Then, the first animals of a given type appear with opapatika births.
- This is a fascinating account, but I don’t want to spend too much time on it. Yet, it is good to have these basic ideas. I don’t think there are explicit explanations in the Tipitaka, but we can deduce these possibilities based on the Agganna Sutta. Waharaka Thero delivered a couple of discourses on this topic.
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Is this related to internal and external āyatana? So during Paticca Samuppada, I would assume viññana paccaya internal and external nāmarupa, internal and external nāmarupa paccaya internal and external āyatana. External āyatana will (?) appear as kamma vipaka in the future. When the external and internal āyatana meet, that is samphasso. When salāyatana nirrodho for arahants, external āyatana is still present but internal āyatana is gone, so there is no samphasso. Likewise when an external āyatana of different nature from internal āyatana meet, there is no samphasso too (eg apple in contact with tongue craving chocalate = no samphasso)
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“Is this related to internal and external āyatana?”
- No. Both internal and external āyatana arise in the MIND.
1. The sensory faculties of an average human are “indriya.” They become “internal āyatana“ only if we use them with raga, dosa, or moha.
- When an “indriya“ becomes “internal āyatana,” it does not grasp an accurate representation of an external rūpa (sights, sounds, tastes, smells, touches, and memories). Thus, the mind experiences a “distorted version” of a given rupa. That “distorted version” of a given rupa is called an “external āyatana“ (for example, “my house,” “my friend,” etc.) Therefore, an external āyatana is a “distorted version” of a given external rūpa. That is why one attaches to it. For an Arahant, external rupās never become external āyatana; they are just external rupās.
- Note that an “external āyatana” arises in the mind. It is NOT the external rupa.
- There is no equivalent English word for āyatana.
2. The Buddha did not describe the mechanism of how external rupa arise due to the COLLECTIVE kammic energies generated by living beings. It is critical to realize that the physical objects in the external world do not arise due to one mind but due to ALL relevant minds. That is likely to be a very complex process, and we don’t need to understand it.
- To attain Nibbana, we must understand how an INDIVIDUAL MIND (specifically one’s own mind) attaches to worldly things.
- That is the process explained by Paticca Samuppada.
- Both internal āyatana and external āyatana arise in a given mind.
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These are fundamental concepts that may take some time to sort out. I just revised the following post to make it a little better:
“How Do Sense Faculties Become Internal Āyatana?“
- Another related post is “Contact Between Āyatana Leads to Vipāka Viññāna.” It needs a rewrite, and I will try to do it in the next few days.
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