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In Payasi sutta, Ven Kassapa gave the simile of the sun and moon as an argument for rebirth. Is this rightly translated? Why would the sun and moon be regarded as gods? Wouldn’t they know that they are just stars and planets (assuming Ven Kassapa has abhinna powers)? And why would this be a valid argument for rebirth?
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What do you think, chieftain? 5.10 Are the moon and sun in this world or the other world? Are they gods or humans?”
5.11“They are in the other world, Mister Kassapa, and they are gods, not humans.”
5.12“By this method it ought to be proven that 5.13there is an afterlife, there are beings reborn spontaneously, and there is a fruit or result of good and bad deeds.”
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It is a long sutta and needs to be read in the context.
- I will read the sutta and comment later today.
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1. I recommend reading the “Pāyāsi Sutta (DN 23)” from @marker 5.1.
- As explained there, Pāyāsi did not believe in the rebirth process, kamma vipaka, opapatika (instantaneous) births, etc.
- Venerable Kassapa provided many analogies to explain to Pāyāsi why those were wrong views.
2. It is informative to read the whole sutta and think about those explanations.
- I could not figure out some of the analogies, and the one pointed out by Pathfinder is one of them.
- It is possible that the cultural background at that time may have played a role in that particular analogy. However, I cannot figure out the logic!
3. Ironically, Pathfinder asked this question the same day Taryal posted his comment, “Building Confidence in Dhamma.”
- At least for our time, I think Taryal’s comment provides an easier-to-understand way.
- Furthermore, as I noted below Taryal’s comments, Buddha’s teachings cannot be understood with “normal human logic.” It cannot be accepted or rejected based on “normal human logic” used by all puthujjana, including scientists. Only a Noble Person (Ariya) at or above the Sotapanna stage can comprehend that the root cause of all suffering is “distorted/false sanna.”
- I have discussed many suttas providing evidence, starting with the post “Uncovering the Suffering-Free (Pabhassara) Mind ” on 8/5/23. I pointed out two critical posts in that comment. Another is “Mūlapariyāya Sutta – The Root of All Things.”
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Thank you! It’s a shame not to be able to understand it, as it is one of the few arguments put forth by Ven Kassapa on how we know there is rebirth. The other arguments are mainly about why Pāyāsi’s arguments are illogical.
However, one things that stood out to me is the simile of being Blind from Birth:
“Chieftain, suppose there was a person blind from birth. They couldn’t see sights that are dark or bright, or blue, yellow, red, or magenta. They couldn’t see even and uneven ground, or the stars, or the moon and sun. They’d say, ‘There’s no such thing as dark and bright sights, and no-one who sees them. There’s no such thing as blue, yellow, red, magenta, even and uneven ground, stars, moon and sun, and no-one who sees these things. I don’t know it or see it, therefore it doesn’t exist.’ Would they be speaking rightly?”
“No, Mister Kassapa. There are such things as dark and bright sights, and one who sees them. And those other things are real, too, as is the one who sees them. So it’s not right to say this: ‘I don’t know it or see it, therefore it doesn’t exist.’”
“In the same way, chieftain, when you tell me you don’t believe me you seem like the blind man in the simile. You can’t see the other world the way you think, with the eye of the flesh. There are ascetics and brahmins who live in the wilderness, frequenting remote lodgings in the wilderness and the forest. Meditating diligent, keen, and resolute, they purify the heavenly eye, the power of clairvoyance. With clairvoyance that is purified and superhuman, they see this world and the other world, and sentient beings who are spontaneously reborn. That’s how to see the other world, not how you think, with the eye of the flesh. By this method, too, it ought to be proven that there is an afterlife.”
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It is the fact that there were others who could corroborate the seeing of past lives which makes it more valid! And yes, Taryal has mentioned many other wonderful reasons to build faith.
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