Post on “Saññā Gives Rise to Most of the Vedanā We Experience”

“I think this types of saññā can be called bahidda saññā.”

• Yes. That is exactly right.
• “Bahidda” comes from “bahira” + “iddha,” where “bahira” is external and “iddha” means “get established.” Note that “iddhi” is different and means “supernormal powers.”
• Thus, “bahidda sanna” is a sanna that arises due to external sensory inputs and automatically “established” or ‘manifested’  in a sentient being. Kama sanna (like the taste of food or the beauty of a woman) is built into our human bodies. They give rise to “mind-made vedana” or “samphassa-ja-vedana.”
• Puthujjana (or even a Sotapanna) may attach to such “mind-made vedana” because they do not understand that they are not “real” at a deeper level. Once that mechanism is understood, one realizes that one has been “tricked” by nature!

The “bahidda sanna” evolves into “ajjhatta sanna” for all those who have not fully grasped the above.

• Here “ajjhatta” comes from “ajjha” + “atta” where “ajjha” means “oneself” and “atta” means “beneficial/meaningful.” 
• Those below the Anagami stage (who have not fully grasped how “bahidda sanna” arises, would automatically be attached to that “bahidda sanna,” thinking it would benefit oneself.
• That is what I tried to explain in that post. Yes. You seem to have gotten the idea!

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dosakkhayo

Yes. That is a good point. 

• All five entities in pancupadanakkhandha (rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana) are of 11 types: “Yaṁ kiñci, bhikkhave, rūpaṁ atītānāgatapaccuppannaṁ ajjhattaṁ vā bahiddhā vā oḷārikaṁ vā sukhumaṁ vā hīnaṁ vā paṇītaṁ vā yaṁ dūre santike vā, ayaṁ vuccati rūpakkhandho.” There, “ajjhattaṁ vā bahiddhā vā” refers to the ajjhatta rupa and bahidda rupa. The same applies to the other four entities. All those ajjhatta and bahidda entities occur in the ajjhatta and bahiddha stages at the beginning of a sensory attachment process.
• See “Khandha Sutta (SN 22.48).”

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dosakkhayo

OK. Yes. It is fine to remind me if I miss to address a comment.

No. The “pure pancakkhandha” can arise only when an Arahant is in Arahant phala samapatti. 

• That is only when “distorted sanna” does not arise even in an Arahant.
• Even though “distorted sanna” does not have raga, dosa, or moha, it still does not depict the “real nature.”

I thought of providing a bit more information to make things clear. 

The question was: “Furthermore, can bahiddha rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, and vinnana be referred to as pancakkhandha, and, in the same way, can ajjhatta rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, and vinnana be referred to as pancupadanakkhanda?”

• The  “pure pancakkhandha” would have no defilements (raga, dosa, moha) and also no “distortions.” That is the same as the “pabhassara citta” we discussed.
• That arises for the first time when one attains the Arahant phala.
• After attaining the Arahant phala, the mind returns to the “kama dhatu” stage with uppatti bhavanga that one was born with.
• Some Arahants can get back to the “Arahant phala citta” or “pabhassara citta,” at later times, which is called “Arahant phala samapatti.” 

Unless an Arahant is in a jhana or Arahant phala samapatti, their mind is in the uppatti bhavanga they were born with.

• Then, upon getting a sensory input, their minds also receive the “kama sanna” associated with any human uppatti bhavanga. That is the “bahidda vinnana” state (with the corresponding “distorted sanna” and the rupa, which is also “distorted” per that sanna.) That is why it is not the same as “pure pancakkhandha.”
• However, Arahant‘s mind will not get to the next stage of “ajjhatta vinnana” because it will not attach to the “distorted sanna” or specifically “distorted kama sanna” in this case.
• For a puthujjana, the “ajjhatta vinnana” is only the starting point of mind contamination. It can get further defiled within a fraction of a second, depending on the “kama gati” present at that time. It can go through several stages of contamination before it becomes “vinnana upadanakkhandha” (which is simply referred to as “vinnana” in most suttas.)

That contamination process is discussed in the following posts: 

• Each Citta Starts with Distorted Saññā (with chart B2)
• Contamination of the Human Mind Based on a Sensory Input (with chart B3)
• Contamination of a Human Mind – Detailed Analysis (with chart B3)

Those posts are in the section: “Recovering the Suffering-Free Pure Mind“

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dosakkhayo

Such educational discussion!

— Under #50692, Lal wrote:
“Puthujjana (or even a Sotapanna) may attach to such “mind-made vedana” because they do not understand that they are not “real” at a deeper level.”

So, attachment is really attachment to a vedana, and I can see that via paticca samuppada (the niddesa version):

…salayatana paccaya samphassa-ja-vedana, samphassa-ja-vedana paccaya tanha …

— also under #50692
“Those below the Anagami stage (who have not fully grasped how “bahidda sanna” arises, would automatically be attached to that “bahidda sanna,” thinking it would benefit oneself.”

Do we also attach to sanna? I thought the flow would be:

sanna –> vedana –> tanha

Also, we discussed “distorted sanna”. If we can make up a phrase, can we call “distorted sanna” “uppatti bhavanga sanna“?

Best,
Lang

Lang wrote: 

“So, attachment is really attachment to a vedana, and I can see that via paticca samuppada (the niddesa version):

…salayatana paccaya samphassa-ja-vedana, samphassa-ja-vedana paccaya tanha …”

• Yes. Attachment is to samphassa-ja-vedana.” I highlighted that to make it clear.

____

Lang asked: 

“Do we also attach to sanna? I thought the flow would be:

sanna –> vedana –> tanha

Also, we discussed “distorted sanna”. If we can make up a phrase, can we call “distorted sanna” “uppatti bhavanga sanna“?”

• What you wrote, “sanna –> vedana –> tanha” can be written as “distorted sanna –> samphassa-ja-vedana –> tanha”
• In the suttas just “sanna” appears. Those who have not broken the corresponding samyojana/anusaya ALWAYS attach to the “samphassa-ja-vedana” generated by that “distorted sanna.” I like to use “distorted sanna” to emphasize that it is not real. However, it is built into our bodies via Paticca Samuppada; thus, it feels real!

Thank you, Lal.

So, we don’t attach to “distorted sanna“, but to samphassa-ja-vedana right? Thus,

“distorted sanna –> samphassa-ja-vedana –> tanha“

There is always the samphassa-ja-vedana in between, and not

“distorted sanna” –> tanha“

I must say I am still digesting the concept of “distorted sanna” (working my way through slowly), so, about my other question: can we call it “uppatti bhavanga sanna“?

Lang asked: “So, we don’t attach to “distorted sanna“, but to samphassa-ja-vedana right?”

• Yes. I had not expressed this correctly in my initial response. I just revised it to make it clear.
• “samphassa-ja-vedana” arises due to “distorted sanna”  for those who have not broken the corresponding samyojana/anusaya.

Lang asked: “I must say I am still digesting the concept of “distorted sanna” (working my way through slowly), so, about my other question: can we call it “uppatti bhavanga sanna“?”

• Yes. You could say that. Anyone born with a human body will have the “kama sanna” common to all of us: Sugar or a nice meal tastes good, feces smells bad while a rose smells good, there are handsome men and beautiful women, etc.