First noble truth

There are two aspects to the First Noble Truth.

1. There is hidden suffering in attaching to worldly things. An average human thinks highly of kama assada or sensory pleasures. But because of their tendency to do “whatever it takes” to fulfill sensory desires, average humans are tempted to do immoral things.
– Some people think they will not do immoral things. But that is only because they have not been subjected to high-enough temptation.

2. Because of the above, average humans inevitably are reborn in the four realms at some point in the future. Suffering in those realms is worse than the suffering endured by ANY human.

That is one version of the “previously unheard Dhamma” of the Buddha.
– Even though they may get a temporary sensory satisfaction by “somehow fulfilling those desires” they pay for that when they are reborn in the apayas.

A good analogy is a fish biting a tasty bait. There is a momentary pleasure (when seeing the tasty bait), followed by unbearable suffering.
– But unlike in that case, suffering in the rebirth process is not immediate.

The critical point is how to “see” the unfruitfulness AND dangers of kama assada instead of seeing their pleasures as we normally tend to do.

The Buddha said to contemplate on the long-term bad consequences (adinava) of kama assada.

Any object in the world that provides such kama assada has anicca, dukkha, viparinama nature.
– That means one CANNOT maintain that to one’s satisfaction in the long run. Thus, it WILL bring suffering in the long-term when it INEVITABLY undergoes its unexpected changes/destruction (viparinama).
– Even if the object itself does not appear to do any of those three, one’s sensory faculties are subjected to those three characteristics.
– For example, a gold ring that one craves may not appear to have anicca, dukkha, viparinama nature during one’s lifetime (unless it is stolen or one may be forced to sell it in an emergency). But the person himself is subjected to the anicca, dukkha, viparinama nature. Thus, there is no escape.

That is a simple analysis.
– A deeper aspect is that as long as one has cravings for such things, one would not be free of the kama loka.
– Of course, one only starts “seeing” this picture (Samma Ditthi) at the Sotapanna Anugami stage.
– Such cravings (or the corresponding wrong “sanna” or the “perception of value”) will be completely removed from the mind only at the Anagami stage.
– However, part of the wrong “sanna” will be removed even at the Sotapanna Anugami stage. That is why one would not do apayagami actions to get such sensory pleasures after the Sotapanna Anugami stage.

Thus anicca nature needs to be contemplated with such examples. Just reading up on anicca, dukkha, anatta is not going to do anything.
– By the way, anatta means that one will never be able to free of the rebirth process as long as one does not see the above picture. One WILL become helpless when one is reborn in an apaya. There is nothing an animal, for example, can do until that life ends (by the life I mean that bhava, which can last thousands of years at a time).

“I remembered there’s two stories that I have come across where a Frog after it got killed, was birthed into the Deva realms and another story of some bats were able birth into the Deva realms due to some monks chanting in the cave. Can we say that in those two stories, the animals were at the end of their Bhava?”

– It may be possible for those things to happen even if they had not reached the end of the bhava. But those are VERY rare.
– When the gandhabba comes out of the body at death, if the causes and conditions line up, it is possible that it may grasp a new bhava.
– Workings of the kamma, in fine detail, can only be done by a Buddha.

“There’s also a Jataka story of the Bodhisattva being in hell.”

I don’t think that is right.
– The lowest realm a Bodhisatta can be reborn is the animal realm. Even there, The animal cannot be smaller than a certain size.

“..how much meritorious deeds we had to do just to get a human birth?”

An alternative way to look at this could be helpful.
– We all are likely to ALREADY (in previous lives) have done kamma to be born in the lower realms as well as higher realms.
– One could be mindfully engaged in punna (kusala) kamma and avoid papa (akusala) kamma to be able to grasp a “good kamma seed” rather than a bad one.
– But the only way to guarantee that a bad seed will not be grasped is to get to at least the Sotapanna Anugami stage. That is by comprehending the Four Noble Truths/Tilakkhana/Paticca Samuppada..

Hello there TripleGemStudent,

(I got it right this time!)

Here is my contribution:

I too had read something about “one of Buddha’s former lives when he was in hell”.

And also, if I remember correctly, it was only for a very short span of time. But I am not sure here whether that was about a Chief Disciple rather.

However, the perplexity arises from the use of the word ‘Buddha’.

If taken in the sense of ‘the one WHO HAS SINCE become a Buddha’ the notion is not at all startling. That is, before he even set out on the path to become a bodhisatta, before all that he had been just a normal being drifting in sansara from a time without beginning, just like the rest of the beings. And the records in the nama gotta are not limited to the past 91 mahakappa. They go back infinitely into the past. Just as he had been a Boddhisatta before becoming a Buddha, He had been a normal being in sansara before that. But we keep referring to Him as the Buddha in all circumstances, because that is what he finally achieved. Like when we say: the Professor was a student at so-and-so College (Now he is no longer a student at that college)

It is said that the time it took Him to fulfil the paramita (the requirements) spanned the time of 512,000 Buddhas. Taking the number of Buddhas in the last 91 mahakappa, 8, with the estimated duration of a mahakappa ( 80 billion years) as an average, we get : 91/8 x 512,000 x 80×10^9 . Close to 5×10^17 years. Insignificant compared to the all the infinite time before.

So there is no reason why a normal (until that time) being in sansara, including those later to become Boddhisattas and Buddhas, should be exempt from the hells. It is actually impossible, seeing that, until the attainments, most births are in the apaya.

with Metta

“Does that exclude the destruction/remain in state of the Solar system and only applies for the 10 billion year reformation of Earth?” Yes.. See below.

“we spend 9 months on a good vacation while the remaining 3 months is tortured in the apaya’s?”
I do not clearly recall reading this. Perhaps possibly, but I am not sure.

You are right there, TripleGemStudent!

When we say ‘most births are in the apaya’ we mean those brought about by the process of upadhana, abhisakhara and kamma vipaka > bhava > jati. Those bring about results in the various planes WHEN those planes are in existence. When they are not, all beings transfer to realms above the Abhassara brahma realm out of necessity, as it were (or forced). Once those lower realms are reformed, the beings gradually ‘find their place’ according to their gati.

If you are not aware of it, those 4 gradual stages of: duration , process of destruction, state of destruction (non- manifestation), and reformation have been revised to 20 billion years from 10 billion following a comment by the participant Zapper to accord with the duration of three brahma realms. See ‘Dhamma and Science Forum: Confusion about maha kappa’

Your ‘knowing/understanding’ is far from off, 3GS. It seems to me you are able to spot the slightest thing that does not, or may not, make sense. Quite like Zapper, in fact. Guarding against blind belief remains paramount, from wherever and whomsoever the ‘information’ is coming from. Investigation and reflection are in fact tools to get to the Truth.

I appreciate greatly your value of my contribution, but please now, these are not my teachings. One in the spiritual line of the Buddha discovered the true Teaching, taught it to another in the same line who became an Ariya as well. In my turn, I do my bit to be of help and support to others who may need it, adding my own insight and the fruits of my reflections at times as well, but always ready to be corrected myself.

with Metta

Thank you triple Gem Student !

It is my pleasure too.

“we spend 9 months on a good vacation while the remaining 3 months is tortured in the apaya’s?”

Indeed so – just because I may not remember reading it does not mean that statement is not correct. On the contrary, going into it further(as we are doing here) indicates it IS correct, just as you have pointed out as well.

“– I’m just wondering . . .approximately how many years is an antakkappa? 20 billion?”

“These original suddhāṭṭhaka have lifetimes of close to 20 antakkappa (or antarākappa in Sinhala), where 80 such antakkappa are in a mahā kappa.” See the post:(/abhidhamma/the-origin-of-matter-suddhatthaka/) # 8

Going by this alone, since 80 anantakappa make a maha kappa, then 20 anatakappa correspond exactly to the length of any of the four phases of : duration process of destruction, state of destruction (non- manifestation), and reformation. AND – this was written in November 2015 and revised as late as February 2020, well before Zapper brought up the matter that 10 billion years (by previous estimates) for any of the 4 phases cannot be correct. Therefore, it would indeed appear that one anantakappa corresponds to twenty billion years. I now hope I have got this right myself!!

I am delighted that you make mention of the importance of gratitude. Not many seem to do so; at least not as far as giving open expression to it goes. Without first becoming acquainted with a ‘Noble Friend’it is impossible to get a glimpse of the Path, let alone get on It. Without this compassion of the Noble Ones we would roam on and on in sansara, enmeshed in delusion and the resultant suffering. Hence, no amount of even expressing this Gratitude can do justice, can adequately recompense, that which we have been given. Best we can do is to share merits with Them; as with all other beings too – we do not know how many have helped us in the beginningless past, even if in the moral sense alone, which is a prerequisite to get to the stage where one becomes able to comprehend the Dhamma. Being ever conscious of all this in turn brings merits to ourselves. But that must not be the motive. Let that not be the motive. In fact, it CANNOT be the motive if that gratitude is deep and sincere.

However, most associations we have had have been with those who have hindered us, with the ‘wordly’ people. Even now. Towards these we must have compassion instead, having once realized for ourselves the amount of suffering in store for ordinary beings.

Lastly, it would be more beneficial to you and to everyone else, if you get answers from other readers as well.

with Metta

“…it would indeed appear that one anantakappa corresponds to twenty billion years. I now hope I have got this right myself!!”

See? I did NOT get it right. Any of the four phases lasts twenty anantakappa (twenty billion years); so,in reply to the question, one anantakappa would equate with ONE billion years.

We do not need to give overdue importance to the actual lenght. It cannot be changed, whether we find out how long it is exactly or not, whether we think about it or not. What we CAN change is our destiny.

What is important is to realize that we have to do what is necessary NOW to get onto and to advance on the Path, during that ‘duration’ phase, however long it is in actual fact.

with Metta

y not and Tripelgemstudent:

The four phases of a “world cycle” (formation phase, existing phase, destruction phase, remaining in that destroyed phase) are each 20 antakkappas.

The Buddha did not give the extent of 20 antakkappas in terms of billions of years.
– In the Agganna Sutta, he just stated that it is a “very long time.”
– When asked to give a simile he gave the following simile (in a different sutta): “Consider a granite mountain that is 7 yojanas in all 3 dimensions (a cube). If one were to sweep over the mountain with a cloth once every 100 years, the time to wear out the mountain is that time.”

I did an estimate of that time in one of the early posts. That may have where I got the 20 billion number. I just checked on Google and see that the lifetime of the Sun is 10-12 billion years. But that is not necessarily the lifetime of Earth, which could be longer. It may have taken a long time for the Sun to initiate the fusion process in the core.

So, I think the 20 billion number is good enough to get an idea. Of course, we do not know the correct value.
– It is good enough just to get an idea that it is a “very long time.”

I think this discussion has gone far enough.

If there is a critical issue to address here, please send me an email with a BRIEF description.
– If such a critical issue is there, I will post it and address it.

Triplegemstudent wrote to me and we had a discussion via email. I am just going to post one of my emails and his last email.

My email:

This issue was discussed at:
“Post on “Buddhism and Evolution – Aggañña Sutta (DN 27)”
The essence of the discussion is in my following reply there, close to the top of the thread, was as follows:

“Dr. J Chakma wrote: “Out of 4 antakkappas a living being spend 3 anatakkappas (i.e. 75% time of a mahakappa) in Brahma realm (Abhassara) and enjoy jhanic pleasure. However, Buddha told this sansara is full of suffering (dukha and dukkha). So, a being even if it spent rest of the mahakappa in apayas, the being still spends 75% of time in Good realm (abhassara realm). So, theoretically a being enjoys more than it suffers.”

That is correct.
But as you said after that, the suffering, while it lasts, is unbearable.

To get a perspective consider the following scenario: If one is given the opportunity to enjoy all the comforts in the world for 9 months on the condition that one would then be subjected to various forms of torture (burned alive, cut into pieces only to reassembled instantaneously and to go through the whole process again, etc) incessantly for the next 3 months, would that be acceptable?

I don’t think one would even agree to one day of such suffering even for 9 months of luxurious living.”

Then I asked the Triplegemstudent:
Would you take that offer?
Imagine the worst suffering that you ever experienced in your life.
– Suffering in an apaya is MUCH worse. We can get a glimpse of it by thinking about an animal in the wild (not a pet). How many old animals are in a jungle? They are eaten alive as soon as they get a bit old.

Following is part of the final response of the Triplegemstudent:

“I read the whole discussion before and that’s why the idea/thought came to my mind. I wasn’t able to find a satisfactory answer including what you, myself or anyone answered. In my previous e-mail before this one, what I was trying to say was what I came to realize is what me and Dr. J Chakam is/was thinking/saying how we spend more time in the Brahma realms and therefore “should” be enjoying more pleasure is the wrong/incorrect thinking.

Because rather one is enjoying more pleasure or suffering, it’s still Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta in any of the 31 realms of existence. As long as we’re stuck in the rebirth process Sansara, not attaining Magga phala or Nibbana, the end result is always more suffering. And like you said, the suffering in the apaya is much worse and possibly greater > than any pleasures we receive.

So even when I get to enjoy 9 months of pleasure, that’s still Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta. That 9 months of pleasure is Anatta, unfruitful/no essence/no refuge. That would be the same as the 3 months suffering for it.

Because that 9 and 3 months is both Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta I shouldn’t/don’t want to even to get involved with the pleasure or suffering in the first place because all that is Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta. It’s better to attain Magga Phala/Nibbana, so that I don’t even have to make such a decision/or be in that position like in your example in the first place.

This is what I meant when I said, what me and Dr. J Chakma was thinking is wrong/incorrect.”

My comment:

I am impressed by his reply.
He wrote: “So even when I get to enjoy 9 months of pleasure, that’s still Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta. That 9 months of pleasure is Anatta, unfruitful/no essence/no refuge. That would be the same as the 3 months suffering for it.”

He realized the deeper aspect of it. That is in a way the First Noble Truth that the Buddha was trying to explain.
– What we PERCEIVE to be a pleasure (in sensory pleasures or even in jhanic pleasures in those Brahma realms) has “hidden suffering.” The more one is enamored by them, the more difficult it becomes to be able to free of ALL future suffering.