Reference for needing Ariya for Sotapanna phala citta

I just revised that post to include this comment:
“I still have not seen a definitive Tipitaka reference regarding this issue. However, all suttas on the conditions for attaining Sōtapanna stage list saddham­mas­savanaṃ (saddham­ma + savanaṃ or “listening to Dhamma”) as one condition, as in #1 above. Since written texts were not available at the time of the Buddha, this is not definitive as a condition.”

Axel,

The reference IS the Tipitaka itself. There, all who attained the Sotapanna stage listened. I cannot know whether during the times of previous Buddhas written (not to say printed) copies of desanas were made available, so I cannot assume that they were, but neither can the possibility be excluded.

I for one feel more at home and more enriched reading than listening, but that may be because I can ‘manage’ the content better that way : giving more time to stop and reflect on key words and phrases and so on.

During the time that I have been typing I see that Lal has replied. Still, I felt like sharing this with you.

metta

This does not need any Tipitaka reference. Not everything needs Tipitaka reference if one would be limited like christians or muslims to scriptures it means one is limited to those scriptures and does not develop any wisdom but just blind faith. Tipitaka is Dhamma which makes people develop wisdom so they can apply it to all sorts of things and come up with the clarity and see things the way they are :)

About the question you asked I will show you examples that can gives you a hint. Let say there is musician who can read the music (notes) but without knowing how to play and instrument and hearing one does not really experience the music one reads. Same with people on the Path, one needs to listen to the Dhamma to truly understand it as musicians needs to learn/listen to music to really understand the notes. :)

Even going to the mundane and common sense – what is better learning alone things you do not understand or having someone who understand the topic? If I going to give you book on physics or math even for beginner you would have much more problems and trouble then person who have someone who is more advanced and have better understanding (better and PROPER) so you have a lot of clarity moments which it not necessary to be like that when doing things alone without any ideas what those things are about of having assumptions about them of how they are like :)

It is true that the Tipitaka cannot be expected to have ALL the details.
As one learns Dhamma and progresses, one would be able to “fill in the gaps” by oneself.

However, there are key insights that only a Buddha is able to see. For example, I have explained why a citta vithi has 17 cittas; see, “Gandhabba (Manomaya Kaya)- Introduction“.
– But an actual citta vithi can be seen only by Buddha. He explained it to Ven. Sariputta and that is how it was incorporated to the Abhidhamma Piṭaka.
– Even then it is not easy to to grasp that process, unless one is truly interested.

Whether a sotadvara citta vithi (generated by a Noble Person) is necessary to trigger the Sotapanna magga and phala citta in a listener (while listening to a discourse by a Noble Person) cannot be figured out by us.
– Note that sotadvara citta vithi means a citta vithi generated by an arammana (sound) coming through the ear.
– It may not be necessary, but if the Tipitaka says it is necessary (or discuss that particular sotadvara citta vithi), then we would have confidence in that fact.

Yes. It is a good desana. As I remember, it does provide references to suttas with the statement, “Cattārome, bhikkhave, dhammā bhāvitā bahulīkatā sotā­patti­phala­sacchi­kiriyāya saṃvattanti. Katame cattāro? Sap­purisa­saṃ­sevo, saddham­mas­savanaṃ, yoniso­ma­nasikāro, dhammā­nu­dhammap­paṭi­patti“.
– That includes the requirement of “listening to saddhamma or correct Buddha Dhamma“.

A couple of such references are provided in the post, “Four Conditions for Attaining Sōtapanna Magga/Phala” too.

In fact, many suttas in the “Sotāpatti Saṃyutta SN (55)” of the Samyutta Nikāya discuss all four conditions required to attain the Sotapanna stage.

What I referred to in the reply to your first post on this topic above is the following:
– I am not aware of a TIpitaka REFERENCE that SPECIFICALLY says that Sotapanna PHALA CITTA is attained ONLY WHILE listening to an Ariya.
– See #3 of the post regarding this point. “Four Conditions for Attaining Sōtapanna Magga/Phala”

If there is such a reference in the above desana of Ven. Abhaya, please get that reference from your friend and post it here. We all would appreciate that.

I hope you are having a productive time in Sri Lanka.

Lvalio asked me to post the following comment. Apparently he had a problem in posting it. He thinks it is a problem at his end. Anyway, the following is the comment.

None of this (listening to dhammā) is absolutely necessary to accomplish the state of Sotapanna!

Just understand (understand) the true Dhamma (saddhamma) is sufficient.

And how is it necessary that the master, teacher be an Ariya and not only a good person, or a virtuous person, or etc.

But he who teaches the true Dhamma can only be an Ariya (at least one Sotapanna). And how could he teach the real Dhamma if he wasn’t?

Sometimes the person who read and understood the dhammā a little, starts to think about it and suddenly she sees the first noble truth

Only that, seeing the first noble truth is enough to accomplish Sotapanna, because Lord Buddha said that he who sees the 1st immediately sees the other three, because they are the logical consequences of the 1st
“Four Noble Truths – Suffering and Its Elimination.”

Lvalio wrote: “None of this (listening to dhammā) is absolutely necessary to accomplish the state of Sotapanna!”

That is not right. My post that you referenced does not say anything like that. If I have given that impression, I need to correct it. Please quote or refer to the bullet # where I wrote that or implied that.

To attain the Sotapanna stage, one needs to see the fruitlessness of craving for worldly things. That is the anicca nature.

However, at that stage one has not yet lost the sanna (perception) that worldly cravings are not fruitful. Thus one cannot help “enjoying the worldly pleasures.”

That is sort of like a smoker who can see that smoking is bad for one’s health. That is like a Sotapanna.
– However, the smoker has not given up smoking yet. He still likes to smoke out of the old habit.

That is not a perfect analogy in the following sense.
– A Sotapanna WILL lose the cravings for sensory pleasures within a limited time. Sotapanna’s understanding is NOT reversible.
– A smoker may go back to being a smoker unless he has the WILL POWER to gradually cut down smoking.
– Sotapanna’s PERMANENT understanding WILL INEVITABLY make him/her cut down on cravings for sensory pleasures gradually.

P.S. I realized that I forgot to state the relevant point.
– A Sotapanna CANNOT get that understanding without learning the true nature of this world from a Buddha or a true disciple of the Buddha (Noble Person). Because it is a Dhamma that only a Buddha can discover. A normal human CANNOT figure that out by himself/herself, no matter how intelligent he/she is. That is the key point.

Even if we base this question on the base of simple logic – to learn count to ten or to learn to speak properly, write or even have basic societal understanding and orientation you go to school and learn. Logical things are not necessary to be proven thru suttas as they are obvious. So as we can see to learn how to count to 10 you need to highly qualified person to do so, so person who will teach Dhamma obviously need to be at least Sotapanna to see things as they are so he/she can explain it.

To me also is seems obvious that Dhamma (the true, original Dhamma) can be taught only by Ariyas.

Nevertheless, we should feel grateful also to those who just passed on the suttas down the generations without themselves having got to the true, the ‘hidden’ meaning in the suttas, the one the Buddha intended to convey. Else, those suttas would not have survived for Ariyas to get to the deeper meaning later down the centuries.

It is the work of Dhammata in both cases – the one just in the preservation of the Dhamma in Its literal sense, the other in Its true exposition by Ariyas, both in their own time and place, and in both cases to those ‘deserving’ of it.

As to the main point under discussion – whether LISTENING is necessary to attain the Sotapanna Stage – that is still debatable. One way I see that would resolve the issue is if someone were to declare to have attained the Sotapanna Stage WITHOUT ever having listened to a single desana. (In case the doubt arises, an Ariya would not even THINK of lying, since the consequences of that will be full well known to him/her; and if he/she were NOT an Ariya, but only claiming to be one, still he/she will no doubt know what it WILL lead to. It has not escaped my notice that all so-called ‘enlightened masters’ declare only a ‘sudden bolt out of the blue’ and never any stage magga phala).

Afterthought: but…there are or may be those who are BORN Sotapannas.

Dear Lal,
in #3 of “Four Conditions for Attaining Sōtapanna Magga/Phala,” you stated:

– “(Waharaka Thero) explains that a Sōtapanna anugāmi attains the Sōtapanna stage only while listening to a dēsanā by an Ariya.”

and

– “However, even if a Sotapanna Anugami does not get to the Sotapanna stage in this life, he/she WILL attain the Sotapanna phala in a future life. A Sotapanna Anugami is a Noble Person and is free of the apāyas; see, “Sōtapanna Anugāmi – No More Births in the Apāyās.”

The question that arises is, how is a sotapanna anugami then guaranteed to attain the sotapanna phala? That means he/she is GUARANTEED to get an opportunity to listen to a desana by an ariya somewhere in a future life. Or is something else going on?

Hello Jorg,

You aked: “The question that arises is, how is a sotapanna anugami then guaranteed to attain the sotapanna phala? That means he/she is GUARANTEED to get an opportunity to listen to a desana by an ariya somewhere in a future life.”

Yes. That is correct.
– Basically, the “Sotapanna phala moment” will take place even in future life.
– But one must have understood (“seen with wisdom”) the Four Noble Truths/Paticca Samuppada/Tilakkahana.

Thanks For clarifying Lal.
Interesting. Once things are “set in motion,” Dhamma makes sure that the sotapanna anugami will come in contact with the actual “Sound of Dhamma,” sooner or later.

Dhp.38

The Story of Thera Cittahattha

While residing at the Jetavana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verses (38) and (39) of this book, with reference to Thera Cittahattha.

A man from Savatthi, after looking for his lost ox in the forest, felt very hungry and went to a village monastery, where he was given the remains of the morning meal. While taking his food, it occurred to him that even though he worked hard every day he could not get such good food and that it might be a good idea to become a bhikkhu. So he asked the bhikkhus to admit him into the Order. At the monastery, he performed the duties of a bhikkhu and as there was plenty of food he soon gained weight. After some time, he got weary of going round for alms-food and returned to the life of a lay man. A few days later, he felt that life at home was too strenuous and he went back to the monastery to be admitted as a bhikkhu for a second time. For a second time, he left the Order and returned to home-life. Again, he went back to the monastery for a third time and left it. This shuttling process went on for six times, and because he acted only according to his whims he was known as Thera Cittahattha.

While he was going back and forth between his home and the monastery, his wife became pregnant. One day, during his last stay at home, he happened to enter the bedroom while his wife was asleep. She was almost naked as the clothes she was wearing had partially fallen off. She was also snoring loudly through her nose and mouth and saliva was trickling down her mouth. Thus, with her mouth open and her bloated stomach, she looked just like a corpse. Seeing her thus, he instantly came to perceive the impermanent and unpleasant nature of the body, and he reflected, “I have been a bhikkhu for several times and it is only because of this woman that I have not been able to remain as a bhikkhu.” Hence, taking the yellow robe with him he left his home for the monastery for the seventh time. As he went along he repeated the words “impermanence” and “unpleasantness” (anicca and dukkha) and thus attained Sotapatti Fruition on the way to the monastery.

On arrival at the monastery he asked the bhikkhus to admit him into the Order. They refused and said, “We cannot admit you as a bhikkhu. You have been shaving your head so often that your head is like a whetting stone.” Still, he entreated them to admit him into the Order just once more and they complied. Within a few days, the bhikkhu Cittahattha attained arahatship together with Analytical Insight. Other bhikkhus, seeing him staying on for a long time in the monastery, were surprised and they asked him the reason why. To this, he replied. “I went home when I still had attachment in me, but now that attachment has been cut off” The bhikkhus, not believing him, approached the Buddha and reported the matter. To them, the Buddha said, “Thera Cittahattha was speaking the truth; he shifted between home and monastery before because at that time, his mind was not steadfast and he did not understand the Dhamma. But at this moment, Thera Cittahattha is already an arahat; he has discarded both good and evil.”

–

In this story, Ven. Cittahattha attained Sotapanna Phala even though he had not been listening to any Dhamma discourse. Does this mean that one can become a Sotapanna without listening to the teachings of another noble one (Ariya)?

I think you meant to ask, ” Does this mean that one does not need to be listening to a discourse by a Noble Person (an Ariya) to attain the Sotapanna phala moment?“

• Yes. There is no need to be listening to an Ariya to attain the Sotapanna phala moment.
• The requirement is to learn from an Ariya and understand the “previously unknown teachings of a Buddha.” 
• When that happens, one becomes a Sotapanna Anugami, who is either a dhammānusārī or a saddhānusārī.
• A dhammānusārī or a saddhānusārī WILL attain the Sotapanna phala moment during that life. That can happen any time, anywhere, while contemplating what they have superficially understood. 
• That is what happened to Ven. Cittahattha. He had learned from Ariyas while a bhikkhu and had attained the Sotapanna Anugami stage before he had disrobed for the last time. Then, he attained Sotapanna phala while returning to the monastery to become a bhikkhu for the final time.

I had not made that clear in the following post: “Sōtapanna Anugāmi – No More Births in the Apāyās.” See #4 and #5 there, which I just revised to make this point clear.

• I think Gad commented on Ven. Cittahattha in another thread. I don’t remember which forum thread it was. The above was discussed there, but I had forgotten to update the above post.

3 users thanked author for this post.

dosakkhayo, Jittananto, Jittananto

It was in this discussion, sir.  Five Dullabha (Rare Things).

Thank you! Much merits!

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Jittananto

Yes. That is what I want to say.

I recently read the updated post Four Conditions for Attaining Sōtapanna Magga/Phala, and all my remaining questions about Sotapanna have been resolved. Thank you!