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We have many distorted saññā about physical body, one of them is that body is beautiful (Sarira).
As saying goes, “beauty is skin deep”.
This following link leads to Google drive folder, which was well circulated in Buddhist forum some time ago.
This folder contains video which will help to see the unfamiliar side of body.
There are some video of surgeries, child birth, organ operations, autopsy videos, real life beating heart, cutting open stomach etc.
I am not intending to share this videos for generating the friction/patigha, but, just for that purpose that we can see what is beneath the skin.
I watched those video almost a year ago. I must confess, I literally couldn’t sleep for a day or two after watching those videos;
So, be careful.
I am not 100% sure, if this is fitting to forum, if not, please delete this post.
Lal’s Comment: Thank you, LayDhammaFollower. I will leave the video only so people can see what an Asubha Bhavana is NOT. Also, see my comment below Lang’s comment. For those who want to watch it, click “Watch on YouTube” and the video will open in a different tab.
“2 Parts of the body meditation in 16 Languages GR…T Dvattimsakara patikulamanasikara”
P.S. You can play the video by clicking on “Watch on Youtube.”
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I took a quick peek, and my guess is that these videos may be “too much reality” for most of us. They may indeed bring out patigha, like you warned us, which could be why you couldn’t sleep for a day or two.
Another point, although you probably did not mean it, is that I know of people who practice “asubha bhavana” in a way similar to this. They took some passages, perhaps from the Tipitaka, that describe the different decaying stages of a corpse and imagine them in their mind as a way of contemplating the ugliness/foulness of the body. With videos like these, nowadays who even need imagination?
I remember that Lal has explained that asubha bhavana was not about the foulness of the body, that it was about the unfruitful nature of sensual things. Again, I am sure you did not mean this; I am raising this since I often see asubha bhavana described incorrectly this way.
Best,
Lang -
Yes. Lang is right. Buddha’s Asubha Bhavana is NOT about seeing rotting corpses and distasteful videos like the last one on the list.
– I had not looked at the documents/videos. Just now, I took a brief look at the video listed last. That is NOT asubha Bhavana, but is the version commonly taught by even Theravada teachers!Even though LayDhammaFollower (LDM) has requested to remove them if needed, I will leave them at least for a while so that people can see what not to follow.
The Buddha wanted us to contemplate the unfruitfulness of valuing not only our physical bodies but anything in this world.
– Asubha DOES NOT mean “disgusting” or “yucky.” That may generate patigha, as LDM pointed out.
– It means not beneficial, not fruitful, etc., and quite the opposite.Please read the following sutta carefully.
“Sivathika Sutta (AN 5.249)”– In the days of the Buddha, there was no burial or cremation for average people. Dead bodies were discarded in designated “charnel grounds.”
– But the Buddha wanted us to see not the drawbacks of disgusting scenes in a charnel ground but the drawbacks of disgusting conduct by way of body, speech, and mind.– The Buddha also taught us to contemplate the 32 parts of the body to see that they are also made of the same four great elements as plants and rocks.
– I have mentioned that briefly in #5 of “Anussati and Anupassanā – Being Mindful and Removing Defilements“. I may have addressed it in another post, but I don’t remember. -
Hello, All dhamma friends.
Critical part of my comment was about correcting incomplete saññā about body. We only see shining skin of young beautiful people in world dominated by marketing/advertisement.
I mean beneath muscle, fat and shining skin the biological machinery is hidden away. Which is not exactly pretty sight. Even when we know this is the case, many still have saññā that body is good/beautiful etc.
But, is it the case really?
IF contemplating disgusting aspects of body lead to something, wouldn’t surgeons and gynecologist would be foremost Arhants?
Only purpose of sharing those videos was, To see that unfamiliar side of body.
Lang said above,
I remember that Lal has explained that asubha bhavana was not about the foulness of the body, that it was about the unfruitful nature of sensual things. Again, I am sure you did not mean this; I am raising this since I often see asubha bhavana described incorrectly this way.
That is correct Lang, as Lal has said in next comment and at some posts in website.
That’s why I used the tag:
“MUNDANE Ashubha saññā”.To lal, Thanks for once again reminder about correct Ashubha bhavana.
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I have been thinking about it some more. Sometimes, it is not possible to give a simple, strict “yes” or “no” answer.
Trying to cultivate “asubha saññā” by looking at disgusting aspects of dead bodies or internal organs is — in general — not a good idea for those below or even at the Sotapanna stage.
But, for some, such a drastic approach may help get to the Anagami stage faster (if one has a firm determination) AND is not “agitated/disturbed” by such horrific pictures.
– But that is not recommended for Sotapannas living “householder lives” because that can end marriages affecting children’s and spouses’ lives. One can lose interest in sex. I am not saying that losing interest in sex is bad. It is just that one needs to be aware of the possibility of that outcome. One will know when one is ready to take such an action. That depends on one’s level of understanding of Buddha Dhamma AND one’s personal background.1 user thanked author for this post.
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I wasn’t able to see any video but I was able see the pdf files listed there which aim to do the same thing, I suppose; to show the uncensored truth of what’s beneath the skin.
I didn’t look at it with disgust but tried viewing them as different arrangements of suddatthaka. In the end, it’s all the same stuff. I wouldn’t show this to anyone who I think would look at it with a feeling of disgust, though.It makes no sense that asubha could be even translated as disgust. That is patigha/dosa. That’s a defilement we need to get rid of, not cultivate.
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This is one example of how broken Buddhism is today.
“They should develop the perception of ugliness to give up greed, love to give up hate, mindfulness of breathing to cut off thinking, and perception of impermanence to uproot the conceit ‘I am’.
asubhā bhāvetabbā rāgassa pahānāya, mettā bhāvetabbā byāpādassa pahānāya, ānāpānassati bhāvetabbā vitakkupacchedāya, aniccasaññā bhāvetabbā asmimānasamugghātāya. Variant: ānāpānassati → ānāpānasati (bj, pts1ed)
Yeah . . .
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This is quotation from AN10.60: Girimananda sutta
Katamā cānanda, asubhasaññā?
Idhānanda, bhikkhu imameva kāyaṁ uddhaṁ pādatalā adho kesamatthakā tacapariyantaṁ pūraṁ nānāppakārassa asucino paccavekkhati:
‘atthi imasmiṁ kāye kesā lomā nakhā dantā taco, maṁsaṁ nhāru aṭṭhi aṭṭhimiñjaṁ vakkaṁ, hadayaṁ yakanaṁ kilomakaṁ pihakaṁ papphāsaṁ, antaṁ antaguṇaṁ udariyaṁ karīsaṁ, pittaṁ semhaṁ pubbo lohitaṁ sedo medo, assu vasā kheḷo siṅghāṇikā lasikā muttan’ti.
Iti imasmiṁ kāye asubhānupassī viharati.
Ayaṁ vuccatānanda, asubhasaññā.
I assume in this specific sutta, Asubha Saññā is about drawabacks of physical body or its repulsive nature.
Any comments on this Lal?
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The following link has that verse and the English translation there:
“Girimānanda Sutta (AN 10.60)”You may be focusing on the English translation of “asuci” as “many kinds of filth.”
The Pali word “suci” means “pure.” Asuci means “impure.”
– Depending on the context, one could take asuci to mean “filth” or even “feces.”
– But here, it means just impure.The message here is that our bodies are a collection of parts. Furthermore, such a body is subject to many ailments.
– It is of no benefit to making such bodies in future lives.
– As I wrote earlier, we must avoid generating “patigha saññā” or revulsion during meditation. We need to understand the true nature of our physical bodies (yathabhuta ñāna.)P.S. The last verse you quoted is “Ayaṁ vuccatānanda, asubhasaññā”
– Asubhasaññā is not about revulsion (or “perception of ugliness” in the above English translation.) Asubha means “not beneficial.” -
Yes, Lal. Thanks for Pali words explanation.
Will not contemplate it in any wrong way as you have mentioned in earlier comments as well.
It seems to me Lal that one of the aspects of yathabhuta nana is about seeing how this body is just “vipaka kaya” i.e. just dependently originated.
Is that good summary?
(And Yes, I have read your post about bhuta and yathabhuta nana topic.)
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Yes. Our bodies are “vipaka kaya” dependently originated.
– Furthermore, they are built around a manomaya kaya which arises due to kammic energies created by our (javana) citta!
(A manomaya kaya (made of suddhatthaka) arises due to kammic energy created by our javana citta. Then the physical body grows according to that blueprint with energy from the food we eat.)Thus, our physical bodies are not only dependently originated but originated via our minds.
– It is somewhat like a magician’s work.
– That is why kamma vinnana (in javana citta) is like a magician. Something created by a magician is flimsy! -
“The message here is that our bodies are a collection of parts. Furthermore, such a body is subject to many ailments.
– It is of no benefit to making such bodies in future lives.”The body is, among other things, a means through which nature imparts kamma vipaka, some of which can be severe ailments as Lal pointed out.
See #17 in:
Body Types in 31 Realms – Importance of Manomaya Kaya
Lang
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Asubha = a + subha
- Subha means something like “furiful/good.”
- Asubha is the opposite.
We have a built-in “subha saññā” or a “perception of fruitful/worthiness” about worldly things, especially mind-pleasing ones.
- However, when one starts comprehending the anicca, dukkha, and anatta nature, one starts cultivating the “asubha saññā.” (It is related to “anicca saññā.”)
- See “Asubha Sutta (SN 46. 67)” and “Rāga Sutta (AN 6.107)“.
- However, the English translations there have “asubha” mistranslated as “ugly.” In a way, it is the opposite: We perceive things that are mind-pleasing to be of subha nature, but attachment to such “mind-pleasing things” gets us into trouble. Thus, it is such “mind-pleasing things” that are of asubha nature.
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Thank you, Lal.
So subha is just one word that cannot be broken down further.
With subha meaning “fruitful/good”, I thought it made sense to think of the word in terms of su + bhava (good bhava), and that subha saññā is the saññā that bhava is good (fruitful).
That’s taking it a bit too far, right?
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Yes. Actually, it does make sense to say: “su + bhava (good bhava), and that subha saññā is the saññā that bhava is good (fruitful).”
- Good point.
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Hello everyone
I am not agree with some. Just like Lal said we cannot said completely no. The vision of a dead body can lead someone to the anagami state. I think even the arahant state. The 13 dhutaṅga are the perfect example. The 13 dhutaṅga are the only ascetics practices recommanded by the Lord Buddha himself. They are mainly for the samgha but the lays can try some of them. If one pratices them with determination he can becomes arahant really easily. Leaving In a charnel houses or a graveyard is one of the 13. The Buddha recommand to leave in the cimetery to see the asubha nature frequently. Each of the 13 have différent level of pratice to 1 at 3. Arahant Maha Kassapa was the best praticionners in the 13 Dhutaṅga. Leaving among the dead with a good comprehension of the Dhamma developp the asubha meditation and one can easily destroys kama ragā with the right determination. (Asubha is not only for the body but also for the food. That can help some who eat more than necesserily.
Many monk developp the Jhana easily when they watch a dead body in real life. In some monastery in Theravada country some monk allow when they died to be exposes in front of the other for many days. The other can developp the asubha meditation. A dead body can become a kasina just like the other objects. One can also see his own dead body in a vision as a nimitta. In Pa auk center in Burma, many praticionners developp the Jhana with asubha meditation. I don’t think asubha developp Dosa that depend of the person. That’s why the Lord Buddha said the Dhutaṅga is only optional is not a obligation. In the Buddha time the monks who want to becomes arahant with the 13 dhutaṅga following Arahant Maha Kassapa. The Monk who want to becomes arahant with wisdoms follow Arahant Sariputta. Some who wants to developp the abhinnas follow Arahant Maha Mogallana.
(I think Pure Dhamma are more focus on Arahant Sariputta method like understand the main concept with wisdom.) That’s really great.
Also for us lays we need to have a open mind if one want to do not pratice in this way is okay but if one want to pratice in the other way is also okay. Each of this path lead to Nibbāna. For example me personnaly i don’t developp dosa when i see a dead body that just remind me the annica nature. When i was monk i read about this pratice i didn’t pratice them seriously but the next time if i ordain i want to try them.
For those who do not knows the 13 Dhutaṅga here
1. Wearing patched-up robes (pamsukula)
2. Wearing only three robes (tecivarika)
3. Going for alms (pindapatha)
4. Not omitting any house while going for alms (sapadanacarika)
5. Eating a single meal a day (ekasanika)
6. Eating only from the alms-bowl (pattapindika)
7. Refusing to accept any extra food (khalupacchabhattika)
8. Living in the forest (arannika)
9. Living under a tree (rukkhamula)
10. Living in the open air (abbhokasika)
11. Living in a cemetery (susanika)
12. Be satisfied with allotted dwelling (yathasantatika)
13. Sitter’s practice (nesajjika) – living in the three postures of walking, standing and sitting and never lying down
“Arahant Maha Kassapa: Father of the Sangha“
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I thought again. The pratice of Asubha meditation with the sight of a dead body or other disgusting think can destroys Kama ragā and lead one at least to anagami phala. After that if this anagami continue to focus to the real signification (who mean all type of body even a brahma body is asubha) he will destroys rupa and arupa ragā. He will eventually becomes arahant by removing the others fetters. An arahant reject any kind of body and see asubha nature in all type of body presents in the 31 plans.
Asubha first level : removing kama ragā lead to anagami state, by the sight of disgusting nature in the body of a being in kāma Loka and also understand the incapacity to maintain our body beautiful and optimal to enjoy sensual pleasure. (For example the sex is just a fluid exchange) We will becomes a dead body eventually and we will not enjoy anymore the sensual pleasure. It is fruitless to craving the sensual pleasure. We can fall in the apayas if we are too attach to them. We would really have disgusting bodies in this worlds. For example a peta have a ugly stinky body . An niraya being can have the belly open with the torture and he or she have all type of ugliness. We see in the animal world the worm who born in the trash or all kind of bugs. A deva becomes suddenly old and lost all his beauty near death (in the deva world a old deva is the most disgusting sight). A human becomes old, stinky and becomes a dead body. Even when we are alive we eat and go to the bathroom after, we have all type of disease or disability who lead to ugliness. We had blood and organ.We will inevitably had a disgusting body if we don’t see the danger in sensual pleasure.
Asubha second level : removing arupa ragā and rupa raga. This the most and important. See the danger of all type of body in the Samsarā. A brahma as beautiful as he is will have to disappear and lose his brightness. He can eventually reborn in the apayas where the real ugliness are. (Of courses a anagami will reborn in a pure land but this worlds are not eternals) This example is more for the anariya brahma. Generates a body bring all kind of suffering and perpetuates the cycle of Samsarā. To no longer desire any type of body is happiness.
(Sorry for the repetitions i just want to be sure that anyone can understand what i want to says.)
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Il y a les Sutta qui parlent du Duthanga de vivre dans le cimetière
Some of other Dhutaṅga
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Those are wrong views, Gad.
I just looked at your last two Sutta references (AN 5.184 and MN 118.) If you read them carefully, you will be able to see that the Buddha instructed you NOT to do those things.
Does seeing a dead body give you “peace of mind”?
- No. It is repulsive for a layman to look at such sights.
- They can be used only in exceptional cases for those who have attained higher stages of magga phala.
Buddha Dhamma needs to be learned to cultivate wisdom, not to follow rituals.
P.S. Each of the ten items that you listed in your first post needs to be used with wisdom, not merely as a ritual.
- For example, regarding the list of ten times in your first post, let us take one: “6. Eating only from the alms-bowl (pattapindika)”
- This is discussed in the “Pattapiṇḍika Sutta (AN 5.190).”
- Most others are discussed in that series of suttas: AN 5. 181 through AN 5.190.
- One must first cultivate the mind and understand the perils of attaching to “worldly things.” Craving for the sensual pleasures CANNOT be removed forcefully by staying away from things one likes. But, of course, one must try to avoid sensual pleasures GRADUALLY with increasing understanding. See “Is It Necessary for a Buddhist to Eliminate Sensual Desires?“
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Hello Sir Lal
I am not entierely convince by what you said.
Personnaly that don’t give me peace of mind because i still have kāma ragā. But i heard many monk and lays attain the Jhana with the sight of a dead body. The meditation center of Pa Auk in Burma use this kind of pratice. Of course they have wrong interpretations of the Dhamma. But they still had anariya Jhana.
In this sutta the Buddha invite Maha Mogallana to let his pratices and to lives like a regular bhikkhu. Maha Mogallana refuses and the Buddha asks why. He said he did for two reasons.
1. He was happy to living like that.
2. To encourage the futures generations to keeps this kind of pratices.
Lal i understand when you said that can be a ritual if we don’t have the right comprehension. But for me is really depend of the gati of each persons. Arahant Yasa was a lay before he becomes a bhikkhu and he was disgusted at the sight of the body of many young girls. This sight motives him to ordain. He quickly becomes arahant.
Maha Mogallana was in the perfect moment to stop this pratice he was Arahant already. No need for him to continue this but he keep it. His gati to pratice in the hard way and the benefice for the future generation. All persons is different.
In this Sutta the Buddha recommand to practice for reduces his desires that can be apply to all of the 13 Dhutaṅga.
You said that for a regular layman in a regular couple right? But what about a single layman who pratice the 8 precepts ??
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It is up to you, Gad.
- If it works for you, that is fine.
- Practicing any number of precepts (rituals) without understanding the Noble Truths/Paticca Samuppada/Tilakkhana will not get one to Nibbana. That is my understanding.
- That is not to say that abiding by precepts is bad. It must be done. However, that is not enough. Understanding the unfruitful (anicca) nature of this world is necessary to attain any magga phala, including the Sotapanna Anugami stage..
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