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Lal.
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November 23, 2025 at 6:41 am #55744
Tobias G
ParticipantKāye Kāyānupassanā – Details in Satipaṭṭhāna
See #13.
Two types of ‘kāya’ (with ‘kāya saṅkhāra‘) that arise in the ‘purana kamma‘ stage are explained next @maker 2.11 in the Mahā Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta: “Iti ajjhattaṁ vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati, bahiddhā vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati, ajjhattabahiddhā vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati.”—
Why is ajjhatta kaya mentioned before bahidda kaya? In your chart you show bahidda before ajjhatta kaya. See e.g. #6 in Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation.
The second question relates to the process of PS (paticca samuppada). In which step does “Cakkhuñca paticca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhu viññāṇaṁ” occur? Am I correct in understanding it as stated below?
– bahidda kaya: avijja paccaya sankhara, sankhara paccaya vinnana, vinnana paccaya namarupa
– ajjhatta kaya: namarupa paccaya salayatana, … vedana paccaya tanha
Is namarupa the “mind-made rupa” (rūpe) that develops with cakkhu to cakkhu vinnana?
The first part of bahidda kaya is processed by intact samjoyana (avijja and kamaraga), right? Gati are added via sanphassa?
Thus, the PS steps from avijja… to …tanha happen in a split second. -
November 23, 2025 at 8:34 am #55745
Lal
KeymasterGood questions.
1. The word ‘anusotagāmi’ (‘anu sota gāmi’) means to stay engaged (‘gāmi’) with (“anu”) the flow of the rebirth process (‘sota’). Thus, the mind of an ‘anusotagāmi’ initiates a pañcupādānakkhandha process (equivalently, a Paṭicca Samuppāda process) upon receiving a sense input. The growth of the pañcupādānakkhandha is shown in the following chart.

- The growth of the pañcupādānakkhandha is from left to right in the above chart for an ‘Anusotagāmi.’ See “Growth of Pañcupādānakkhandha – ‘Anusotagāmi’.”
- When cultivating Satipaṭṭhāna (i.e., for a Paṭisotagāmi), one’s mind must move in the opposite direction. When someone sits down to cultivate Satipaṭṭhāna, their mind is already in the ‘expanded’ nava kamma stage. They must start moving the mind from the right to the left toward the Satipaṭṭhāna Bhumi.
- In that process, one encounters the ajjhatta kaya (with ajjhatta viññāṇa) before the bahiddha kaya (with bahiddha viññāṇa)
- Eventually, the mind overcomes the kāma saññā(temporarily) and jumps over to the Satipaṭṭhāna Bhumi.
- See #7 of “Paṭisotagāmi – Moving Toward Satipaṭṭhāna Bhumi and Nibbāna.”
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2. Tobias wrote the following in the second question/answer:
In which step does “Cakkhuñca paticca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhu viññāṇaṁ” occur? Am I correct in understanding it as stated below?
– bahidda kaya: avijja paccaya sankhara, sankhara paccaya vinnana, vinnana paccaya namarupa
– ajjhatta kaya: namarupa paccaya salayatana, … vedana paccaya tanha
Is namarupa the “mind-made rupa” (rūpe) that develops with cakkhu to cakkhu vinnana?
The first part of bahidda kaya is processed by intact samjoyana (avijja and kamaraga), right? Gati are added via sanphassa?
Thus, the PS steps from avijja… to …tanha happen in a split second._____________
- Excellent! Yes. That explains the first part of the Paṭicca Samuppāda (PS) process. Let me provide a bit more information for the benefit of all.
- By the time cakkhu vinnana arises, both bahiddha and ajjhatta stages are complete, and cakkhu ayatana (with cakkhu vinnana) has arisen. That is Step 1 in the above chart. That also indicates PS processes from ‘“avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra’ through ‘nāmarūpa paccayā salāyatana.’
- Step 2 is ‘tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso‘ in the chart, which corresponds to ‘salāyatana paccayā phassō‘ in PS. The verse ‘tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso‘ appears in the “Chachakka Sutta (MN 148),” and is explained in #5 of “Indriya Make Phassa and Ayatana Make Samphassa.”
- Step 3 in the chart describes the PS steps of ‘phassa paccayā vēdanā, vēdanā paccayā taṇhā.’
- As you stated, all that will happen in the ‘anusotagāmi’ process within a split second. A mind will go through the ‘purāna kamma‘ stage in the blink of an eye.
- Once going through the ‘taṇhā paccayā upādāna‘ step, the mind can spend a lot more time engaging in akusala kamma, generating kammic energy. That is the ‘nava kamma‘ stage. This is where kammic energy for future rebirths/vipāka are generated via the ‘upādāna paccayā bhavō‘ step. Also see “Upādāna Paccayā Bhava – Two Types of Bhava.” This is Step 4 in the above chart. P.S. The ‘expanded cone’ for the ‘nava kamma‘ stage compared to the ‘smaller cone’ for the ‘purāna kamma‘ stage is meant to express this difference in kamma accumulation.
Anyone can ask follow-up questions. Tobias has pointed out some critical points.
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November 23, 2025 at 11:19 am #55751
Tobias G
ParticipantThus, the verse from @maker 2.11 in the Mahā Satipatthāna Sutta is intended from the perspective of a Paṭisotagāmi.
If one is aware of the sequence above, one can train the mind to recognize purana and nava kaya as it happens. One then sees through the “magic trick”. Of course, all this only makes sense after one has attained sotapatti. In addition, a good understanding of abhidhamma is very helpful.
For example, I can perceive that the PS step “vedana paccaya tanha” is being reached and that the mind is virtually forced to move on to upadana. Then I practice preventing that progression. Sometimes it works, sometimes I still go with the flow.
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This reply was modified 5 days ago by
Tobias G.
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This reply was modified 5 days ago by
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November 23, 2025 at 12:08 pm #55753
Lal
KeymasterYes. Both following goals can be attained in focused formal meditation sessions: (i) Attaining the Sotapanna stage, and (ii) Cultivating Satipaṭṭhāna to enter the Satipaṭṭhāna Bhumi to attain higher magga phala.
- I discussed that in the post “First Stage of Ānāpānasati – Seeing the Anicca Nature of ‘Kāya’” in the following section:
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Attaining the Sotapanna Phala
12. Even though most people attained the Sotapanna stage while listening to a single discourse by the Buddha, attaining the Sotapanna phala moment can happen anytime, anywhere, while contemplating. Of course, one must have learned the necessary Dhamma concepts (especially the ‘anicca nature’ of the world) from a Noble Person (an Ariya).
- The “Vimuttāyatana Sutta (AN 5.26)” describes five ways of attaining magga phala: (i) while learning Dhamma from a Noble teacher, (ii) while the person himself teaches Dhamma to others, (iii) and (iv) while the person is contemplating in detail Dhamma concepts learned from a Noble teacher. and (v) while fully immersed in a meditation subject (samādhi nimitta). Note that (ii) and (v) hold only for a Noble Person attaining higher magga phala. The other three also hold for puthujjana striving for the Sotapanna stage.
- Therefore, what matters is grasping the relevant Dhamma concepts and breaking the respective saṁyojana.
- We can look at two accounts from the Tipiṭaka to verify the above. Venerable Koṇḍañña attained the Sotapanna phala moment while contemplating the Dhamma he learnt from the first discourse delivered by the Buddha. Another is that of Ven. Cittahattha attained the Sotapanna phala moment while walking to the monastery to become a bhikkhu for the seventh time; along the way, he reflected on the Dhamma he had learned and realized the Sotapanna phala. See “Four Conditions for Attaining Sotāpanna Magga/Phala.”
Setting Aside a Day for the Effort
13. Therefore, one could, in principle, attain the Sotapanna stage within an intensely focused effort within even a day.
- As we have discussed, it requires: (i) learning about the ‘anicca nature’ of the world from a Buddha or a true disciple of the Buddha (a Noble Person) and then (ii) fully comprehending it with wisdom.
- Those two steps are called ‘jānato‘ (come to know about) and ‘passato‘ (seeing the truth of that with ‘dhamma cakkhu‘ or ‘with wisdom’).
- See “‘Jānato Passato’ and Ājāniya – Critical Words to Remember.”
Uposatha Sutta
14. This is why it is customary in the Buddhist countries to allocate a day (usually the Full Moon Day each month) to focus on this objective. They usually observe the ‘eight precepts’ or even the ‘ten precepts.’
- They spend the day listening to discourses and engaging in Vipassanā.
- In the days of the Buddha, this was called ‘uposatha.’ It can also be done to attain higher magga phala for a Sotapanna.
- The Buddha explained to Visākhā how to practice the correct version of ‘uposatha‘ in the “Uposatha Sutta (AN 3.70).” Apparently, there were two other wrong versions practiced at the time.
- Note that ‘uposatha‘ is translated as ‘Sabbath’ in the English translation. In Abrahamic religions, the Sabbath is a day set aside for rest and worship. That does not convey the meaning of Buddhist ‘uposatha.’
- The correct version of the ‘uposatha‘ description starts at marker 4.1.
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Even though I was discussing attaining the Sotapanna stage, the process can also be used to cultivate Satipaṭṭhāna, as mentioned at the beginning of my comment.
- However, it may not happen in a few sittings. Furthermore, one needs to grasp the fundamentals necessary and also live a moral life, i.e., cultivate sila.
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November 24, 2025 at 9:24 am #55756
Lal
KeymasterAt the end of my above comment, I wrote the following:
Even though I was discussing attaining the Sotapanna stage, the process can also be used to cultivate Satipaṭṭhāna, as mentioned at the beginning of my comment.
- However, it may not happen in a few sittings. Furthermore, one needs to grasp the fundamentals necessary and also live a moral life, i.e., cultivate sila.
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1. Cultivation of Satipaṭṭhāna (to access the ‘kāma saññā free’ Satipaṭṭhāna Bhūmi) by a Sotapanna is a bit more involved than I implied above. There are suttās that describe the required steps in detail.
- Before getting into that process, I think it is beneficial for most people (who may be puthujjana or Sotapanna Anugāmi) to understand the critical foundations of the Buddha’s teachings.
- In particular, I think it is not enough to understand that cravings for ‘worldly pleasures’ must be given up to attain Nibbāna.
- It is easier to give up the cravings for ‘worldly pleasures’ if one understands that external sights, sounds, tastes, etc, actually do not deliver those ‘pleasures.’
- The ‘sense of a pleasure’ arises from saññā built into us (all living beings) and from our external environments via Paṭicca Samuppāda.
- That is why I keep working to explain that deeper aspect.
2. When that framework is understood, it becomes easier to attain the Sotapanna stage and also to cultivate Satipaṭṭhāna.
- One of the steps in cultivating Satipaṭṭhāna is to cultivate ‘Indriya bhāvanā‘ or the ‘Restrain of Sense Faculties.’ It is explained in the “Indriyabhāvanā Sutta (MN 152),” for example. Let me explain the key ideas in that sutta to give an idea of why that ‘solid foundation’ is critically important.
3. In the days of the Buddha, other teachers (such as Alara Kalama) also taught ‘Indriya bhāvanā.‘ We all know that our Bodhisatta learnt cultivation of anariya jhāna from yogis like Alara Kalama before attaining Buddhahood with his own efforts.
- Such yogis realized that attachment to sense pleasures leads to bad outcomes, and that even forcefully abstaining from them can lead one to transcend the ‘kāma loka‘ and enjoy ‘jhānic pleasures’ associated with the Brahma realms. To achieve that, they went deep into the jungles to avoid enticing sensory stimuli such as tasty food, luxury houses, and women. However, our Bodhisatta realized that such efforts yield only temporary solutions. Such yogis will be reborn in a Brahma realm, but they may still be reborn in the apāyās in the future, since they had not broken the samsāric bonds associated with kāma rāga.
- Those yogis did not know that the way to be permanently free of the ‘kāma loka‘ is to comprehend how we attach to such sensory pleasures via ‘distorted saññā‘, which in this case is ‘kāma saññā.’ When one fully understands that process, one can cultivate Satipaṭṭhāna to become permanently free of the kāma loka and attain the Anāgāmi state. That is one way to explain the ‘previously unheard teachings’ of a Buddha.
4. In the above sutta, Uttara, a pupil of the brahmin Pārāsariya (a yogi like Alara Kalama), came to the Buddha and asked how the Buddha teaches ‘Indriya bhāvanā‘ to the bhikkhus.
- The Buddha, in turn, asked Uttara how his teacher taught him the ‘Indriya bhāvanā.‘
- Uttara’s answer was what I explained in #3 above, i.e., to ‘stay away from such sensory pleasures’ or to live like a blind person (who would not see such attractive sights), a deaf person (who would not hear such attractive sounds), etc. One can do that by living deep in the jungles.
- Then the Buddha (@marker 2.8) tells Uttara, “In that case, Uttara, a blind person and a deaf person will have developed sense faculties without any effort.” Such people do not crave attractive sights or sounds while they are deaf, but in future lives (when they are born with eyes and ears) they will have those cravings. Until the ‘kāma rāga samyojana‘ is broken with wisdom, one is not free of rebirths in the ‘kāma loka.’
- Then the Buddha explained the correct way to control the sensory faculties. We will discuss that in the future. It involves understanding how the ‘kāma saññā‘ arises via Paṭicca Samuppāda.
- But first, it is critically important to understand the role of saññā in our built-in attachments to so-called ‘sensory pleasures.’
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