[LayDhammaFollower]

#1 I did read somewhere that hell beings have dense body developed to impart upon them different kinds of suffering in them. (For example, spear hitting them, being fried etc etc.)

Suffering in hell requires dense body, I assume.

If they have dense body, why can we not detect them with scientific instruments?

How such a dense body is born without eating food etc?

Because, I assume birth in two hells is spontaneous. How spontaneous dense body are formed? if any rough mechanism can be provided for this.

#2 Also, I did read somewhere that they have huge body proportions in many cases. For example, huge body with very small head and other variation.

I assume although they have body with such ratio, their body is much smaller in comparison to human body over all. that is why we cannot detect them. But this is just hypothesis, I am not sure about solution.

Also, if there body was even more bigger then humans in addition to being dense, how can so many such hell beings can live near core of earth? Considering huge birth rate there.

IF they have big and dense body, why can we not detect them?

==========

I am not sure about any of my claim,
Please, comment on them.

[Lal]

“If they have dense body, why can we not detect them with scientific instruments?”

OK. Let us go step-by-step.
1. Does anyone know where the hell (niraya) is below the Earth’s surface?
2. Do you know that “scientific instruments” do not function below a certain depth? Even metals melt below a certain depth.
3. The Buddha has taught that Deva and Brahma realms also exist, in addition to the niraya (one of the four apayas). Furthermore, the peta (preta) and asura realms also belong to the apayas. Have you or anyone else seen them?

[LayDhammaFollower]

Lal, I am not skeptic of buddha.

I believe that buddha among countless others saw the hells with his abhinna powers.

I said, I am not sure about my statements, I am not expert on geography nor I have abhinna powers.

1. I don’t know exact location, except that hells are said to below the surface of earth. One source is your post on “does hell exists?”, Another source is “Buddha Vamsa” written by mingun sayadaw, this two sources says that hells are below the earth’s surface without mentioning exact location.

2. I thought there might be some sort of instrument with which we may be able to send some sorts of waves

3. Three sources come to mind in this regard:

1st source and 2nd source are both Buddhist friends who follow puredhamma, they have notable meditative attainments, including abhinna to see the hell realms and brahama realms. So, even if this friends were not able to see them, I would believe it on faith in buddha.

Third source is abhaya thero’s experiment of spirit possessions. He performed many such experiments and asked Peta and ghosts about their life, how many of them are there, what they did to born in such state etc.

Those are my sources apart from tipitaka.

Lal, As I said my Question is not regarding whether they exist or not, my question is regarding detection of hell beings, not ghosts.

#1 IF THEY HAVE HUGE BODY (IN SIZE)
#2 IF THEY HAVE DENSE BODY

IF #1 AND #2 ARE TRUE,
what’s problem with detection?

[Lal]

“IF #1 AND #2 ARE TRUE,
what’s problem with detection?”

1. Detect with what? Scientific instruments melt below a certain depth.
– Do they know where the niraya is? At what depth? At what location? Earth is huge.

2. There are MANY things that scientists do not understand. Don’t look to science for answers to these types of questions.
– Do they even know how “vision” happens? No.
– See “How Do We See? – Role of the Gandhabba”

3. The “hell beings” are born via kammic energy. They do not have bodies similar to us. You are thinking in terms of our bodies. Our bodies would not last a millisecond in a niraya. They are born with “bodies” that can withstand such heat enough to feel suffering.
– Laws of kamma and how kamma vipaka give rise to “bodies” in various realms are discernible only to a Buddha. I have added a sutta reference (Acinteyya Sutta) in bullet #3 of post in #2 above.

4. These are questions about things average humans do not perceive. One can waste a lifetime looking into these issues.
– However, it is good to realize the above to dispel doubts. I am glad that you asked the question in that sense. But such doubts cannot be dispelled by looking at “verification” by science.
– Also, see “Dhamma and Science – Introduction”

[LayDhammaFollower]

Okay. Understood, lal.

And yes, I am making my way through “dhamma and science” section.

[LayDhammaFollower]

Lal, I was exploring waharaka sermon website, when I came across this sermon.

I translated the website into English. However, I cannot understand sinhala.

The title of this sermon in English is,
“Is there an underground hell that we can’t see?”

https://waharaka.com/listen/CD068-17

This sermon might be relevant to this thread.

If you hear or have heard The sermon,
Please comment.

Thank you.

[LayDhammaFollower]

Lal, I couldn’t put the link properly, because the box with various signs did not show up at time of writing above reply despite refreshing page two times.

Sorry for that.

However, now signs are visible.
(Signs means; I, B, U, Link, Quote etc.)

[Lal]

No problem. I was testing some settings; I try to do that when website traffic is slow. That is why the text editor was not available. So, it may not work for brief periods.

I will listen to the sermon and comment later.

[Lal]

I listened to the discourse. Let me summarize.

1. There are many things in this world that average humans cannot perceive. There are unseen beings living among us (gandhbbas and some petas) that we cannot see, but those with iddhi powers can see.

2. @29 minutes, the Thero discusses the following account:
“The Siberian Hell Sounds”
– The Thero says he has heard similar “hellish sounds,” while being in samadhi a couple of times, but he did not want to hear them again.

3. @35 minutes, reference is made to the following video (I believe):

– There is a book, “23 Minutes In Hell: One Man’s Story About What He Saw, Heard, and Felt in that Place of Torment” by that person, Bill Wiese.

4. I have discussed some of these in the post “Does the Hell (Niraya) Exist?”
– I need to include Waharaka Thero’s experience (in #2 above) in #4 of that post. I was skeptical about that sound record when I wrote that post.

5. Many suttas describe the propensity to be born in an apaya. There is a series of about 30 suttas starting with the “Manussacutiniraya Sutta (SN 56.102).”
– According to those suttas, most of those at the end of their human or Deva bhava are reborn in an apaya.

[LayDhammaFollower]

Brilliant. Thank you for helping in understanding that discourse.

[taryal]

I lost brain cells trying to go through the video referenced by Dr. Lal in #3 of his comment. If you think you will enter heaven simply because you’re a Christian, why not jump off a bridge and die? There is no need to be alive in this suffering filled world and continue creating problems for others to deal with. These idiots are the reason why contemporary scientists are still reluctant to consider anything other than matter in this universe.

[Yash RS]

True ! but  such people can counter question the Dhamma by asking the same question.

“If you are a Sakadagami and will be born in a Heavenly plane, why don’t you die?”

Now we can respond to it as “Because with the Dhamma one becomes compassionate and tries to spread it to help as many people as possible “

Then they will repeat the same answer! ” We also have compassion and want to spread Christianity to every person “

Now we can’t debate them via such an approach. 

They believe they are in the truth and will try their best to defend it even if it doesn’t hold true.

We can ask them the following questions to question their entire theology.

If the God is infinitely compassionate then why does hell exist? Who created it ? Satan? Why did God let the Satan exist? Why didn’t God create a perfectly happy universe if he is infinitely compassionate?

Why did he create everything? What was the need? 

What about the rebirth evidences?

Why are some born poor, rich , mentally and physically disabled and some are completely fine? Why did god create such inequality? If he wanted to test our compassion, what was the basis for him choosing certain individuals to suffer and others to enjoy?

If god is infinitely powerful then why do calamities occur? Why people kill each other? Why doesn’t god interfere if he’s infinely merciful and compassionate ,etc.

What about those children who die at a very young age, where do they go? If heaven then on what basis? Why did he made that child’s parents suffer?

This is enough to trigger them, they won’t be able to answer anything without inconsistency and anger, yet they won’t accept the truth!

[Lal]

Yash wrote: “True ! but  such people can counter question the Dhamma by asking the same question.

“If you are a Sakadagami and will be born in a Heavenly plane, why don’t you die?”

• But we know that a Sakadagami who dies will be reborn as a Sakadagami. He will not attain Arahanthood by dying! So it is not the same.

[Yash RS]

Yes , but they only care about the heavenly realms.

A Sakadagami will definitely be born in a Deva realm , so in that sense they may ask the same question. A Sakadagami will be a Sakadagami after dying (naturally or by suicide)but that birth would be in a Heavenly realm.

 

 

 

[taryal]

Yash wrote: “Then they will repeat the same answer! ” We also have compassion and want to spread Christianity to every person”

I know they will say that. But if their God is as almighty and compassionate as they say he is, they shouldn’t need to spread their religion. Someone born in a place like North Korea, for example, wouldn’t have a chance to get any exposure to this anyway. If God wants all of us to be Christian, everyone should be born in a Christian family. Animals in the wild shouldn’t need to kill and eat each other to survive too.

On a shallow level, it might look they’re the same things but someone with even a basic understanding of Dhamma knows it is light years ahead of cartoon Bible. A Sakadagami obviously wants to do their best to help others before they die. But their help doesn’t involve telling people to embrace some divine imaginary sugar-daddy with cheap faulty promise of eternal life and threats of eternal damnation otherwise. It involves teaching people how they can use their own efforts to see the suffering associated with this world and ultimately be free from it.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Yash RS

[Author]

Posts