[LayDhammaFollower]

Hi, everyone. LayDhammaFollower here.

I previously made post claiming I was sottapana.

But, Now I feel very overwhelmed by all the details I am realizing everyday. It was as if previously I only has bookish knowledge, which I kept repeating in mind, but didn’t actually understood. There are lot of things to work out and to be understood by me to realize the worldview of buddha.

so, I take back my claim that I am CERTAINLY a sottapana.

Lal has emphasized that stream enterer is one who has understood worldview of buddha AND he is able to make progress without needing any further guidance. I don’t fit this description. Only now I have started to see glimpse of what buddha actually meant.

I certainly was able experience early stage of nibbana.
(At one point I was so much stressed about personal life issue and then I suddenly recalled that world of six senses is not to liking, It causes suffering. And suddenly I experienced so much cooling down and absence of suffering. It was exactly as Lal described. it was not bliss of any form but, just absence of headache, metaphorically speaking. I experienced that cooling down for two days. My mind before that event and after that event had drastic difference as graph of cooling down by lal had suggested. But, I cannot comment whether it was permanent cooling down or not.)

For Now, I still cannot claim that I confidently understand worldview of buddha and also I am not able to see path to nibbana very clearly.

also, I do not exactly understand what Is wrong with this world.

————————————-

My understanding so far

I understand about decaying nature of world. constant work required to maintain low entropy. the fact that liked states ultimately always converts to Unliked state. Unliked state are guaranteed to come. also, based on statistical probabilities Unliked state (high entropy) state is much more likely. we are not in complete control of any six senses.so, every object has suffering that can be removed. (dukkha) (unliked states produces suffering upon meeting and liked objects produces suffering upon separation, everything of this world comes under six senses) ultimately we are helpless. there is nothing of much value in long term. Nothing is permanent except few things (nama rupa records).

but, I still feel like something is missing from my understanding. I feel like I have incomplete understanding. I do not know why but it is case. I still cannot give up on craving to everything.

I just want to achieve freedom from suffering by freeing myself from rebirth cycle in any 31 levels.

I feel like my not having achieved magga phala might have to do something with kammic obstructions. I am young and from cluture where children provide for parents and I have to work hard for myself and parents, to earn decently. which I am in process of doing. what do you think lal?

————————————-

also, One thing I have found through contemplation is that while modern life is hard for billions of people born in relatively bad situation, it is also good for billions of people born well. (No heat, no cold, no illness, ease of travelling, government protection, variety of food delivered to door steps, so many types of clothes, soft sleeping surface and so many other modern amenities and luxuries.) this modern times are certainly outlier, it is obviously not going to The future is grim in early times, I assume suffering all around was much more apparent. and obviously buddha’s message is about stopping future suffering.

—————————————–

I think I am at least on mundane path and at best have achieved sottapana anugami.

anyways, I am utterly grateful to hard work of lal for providing correct interpretation of dhamma. thank you sir.

Moderator’s comment: I have inserted the article’s actual title (“The future is grim”) that LayDhammafollower linked to at the end.

[Lal]

Hello LayDhammafollower,

Even though no one but a Buddha can know the state of another person’s mind, it is possible that you could be a Sotapanna Anugami or getting close to it.

1. It could be helpful to broaden your understanding to the long-term, i.e., the samsaric scale.
– You are looking at this human world and seeing the suffering EXPERIENCED by humans. You may be seeing a contradiction because some people may not EXPERIENCE much suffering even until death (for example, a healthy, wealthy individual dying from a sudden heart attack.)
– However, the SUFFERING that the Buddha referred to was NOT the suffering one experiences now, but CAUSES FOR FUTURE SUFFERING.
– In fact, the recent post discussed exactly that: “Noble Truth of Suffering- Pañcupādānakkhandhā Dukkhā.” You may want to read that subsection too: “Paṭicca Samuppāda During a Lifetime”
– Thus, even that person who “lived happily and died a sudden death” likely accumulated more causes for future suffering. Unless he were at least a Sotapanna Anugami, he would have enjoyed the sensory pleasures and strived to seek more such pleasures. Such efforts only lead to more future suffering.
– The Buddha never said that there are no sensory pleasures in this world. There is no problem in experiencing sensory pleasures. The problem is to ATTACH TO such sensory pleasures and to engage in activities that will prolong the rebirth process. In fact, Deva realms have much more pleasures than we could ever imagine. Even though they have much longer lifetimes as well, those “pleasurable lives” INEVITABLY come to an end, and then they will also end up in the four misery realms (apayas) at some point. That is why we need to look at the “big picture.”
– The article that you referred to at the end only has a very narrow focus. It is possible for life on Earth to be severely affected in many ways, not only by environmental issues. For example, a comet impact can wipe out most of life on Earth, and there is emerging evidence that such events happened in the past.

2. You wrote: “but, I still feel like something is missing from my understanding. I feel like I have incomplete understanding. I do not know why but it is case. I still cannot give up on craving to everything.”
– It is very likely that one would NOT lose ALL cravings for sensory pleasures even at the Sotapanna stage, not just Sotapanna Anugami stage.
– “Cravings” are at different levels. A Sotapanna Anugami loses cravings ONLY to the extent that they WILL NOT do apayagami actions based on cravings. Only at that Anagami stage would one lose all cravings for sensory pleasures in the “kama loka.” That is why a Sotapanna or a Sotapnna Anugami will be reborn in the higher realms of “kama loka.” An Anagami would not be reborn in the “kama loka.” See, “Is It Necessary for a Buddhist to Eliminate Sensual Desires?”

3. You wrote: “I feel like my not having achieved magga phala might have to do something with kammic obstructions.”
– It is also possible that you can overcome any such effects. It may just need a bit more effort.

[LayDhammaFollower]

My point in referring to article was that modern life cannot be sustained and future human life will have much suffering in form of dukkha dukkha then present modern life. obviously I have learned from you lal, that suffering buddha referred to was future suffering. and I do realize the suffering of 4 lower realms.

I Have belief that world is not to our liking. It is fair by laws of kamma. everyone gets what they deserve, yet it is obviously not to liking.

There is no problem in experiencing sensory pleasures. The problem is to ATTACH TO such sensory pleasures and to engage in activities that will prolong the rebirth process.

I know yet, whenever I experience any sense pleasure, I am always afraid of its consequences and I am afraid to attach to them. I have understood how cravings keeps us in 31 realms.

although sensual pleasures directly do not creates suffering, when they are experienced, there is chance that we might attach to them. I am afraid of such attachment.

Do I have correct understanding, lal?

[Lal]

You wrote: “although sensual pleasures directly do not creates suffering, when they are experienced, there is chance that we might attach to them. I am afraid of such attachment.”

That is a concise way to put it.

1. The easiest way to see the “mechanism” is to see what happens at the Anagami stage.
– An Anagami may experience sensory pleasures that MATERIALIZE as “good kamma vipaka,” but their mind WILL NOT attach to such pleasures. Of course, they WILL NOT engage in INTENDED “pleasure activities” like sex.
– That is because their minds have truly “seen/realized” the bad consequences of rebirths even in human and Deva realms (realms in kama loka above the apayas.)

2. In the same way, a Sotapanna/Sotapnna Anugami WILL NOT engage in apayagami deeds even under the most tempting conditions.
– This is not something that can be easily tested, like whether one is an Anagami or not.
– As I have explained before, one quick way to check whether one is an Anagami is to watch an adult/X-rated movie. If no sexual urge arises, it is quite likely that one is an Anagami. Of course, a medical condition could also be responsible for that, so one must be careful.

3. Another, and a better, way is to use Paticca Samuppada. See, “Paṭicca Samuppāda – “Pati+ichcha” + ‘Sama+uppāda’.” The following is a brief summary (you may know this, but for the benefit of others).
– Paṭicca = paṭi + icca; here, “paṭi” is bonding, and “icca” (pronounced “ichcha”) is liking. Thus, Paṭicca is “bonding to something willingly” or “getting attached to something through a liking for it.”
– This bonding depends on one’s gati (habits and likings), which in turn are due to deep-seated āsavas (cravings). Note that “gati” is pronounced as “gathi.”
– Samuppāda = “sama” (same or similar) + “uppāda” (generation), i.e., an existence (bhava) of similar quality or kind. Thus samuppāda means leading to existence or experience corresponding to defilements that made one attach to the situation (ārammaṇa) in the first place.
– Putting all that together, we see that when one is engaging in certain activities (via likings for them), births in realms where such activities present are INEVITABLE.
– For example, if one can be sexually attracted to another person, then one will likely generate relevant abhisankhara (related to thoughts, speech, and actions) accordingly. That means “bhava” and “jati (births)” in the “kama loka” will take place. Only an Anagami or an Arahant would have overcome such births. For that to happen, one would have not only “seen that mechanism” but ALSO would have comprehended the mechanism at a deeper level. One “sees” the mechanism when the “ditthi vipallasa” is removed. But the deeper understanding comes when “sanna vipallasa” and “citta vipallasa” are also removed. See, “Vipallāsa (Diṭṭhi, Saññā, Citta) Affect Saṅkhāra”
– However, to get to the Sotapanna Anugami stage, one just needs to remove diṭṭhi vipallāsa. That means one would have understood how different types of (abhi)sankhara generated via different levels of avijjā (“avijja paccaya sankhara“) lead to CORRESPONDING bhava and jati (births) in various realms.
– If that understanding is true, then one is likely to be a Sotapanna Anugami. That also means one would have “seen” the anicca nature of engaging in apayagami actions. Such a mind WILL NOT and CAN NOT be forced to apayagami actions. No willpower is needed to avoid apayagami actions. One needs to remove sanna vipallasa and citta vipallasa (in stages) to progress above the Sotapanna stage.
– Again, there is no easy way to do that test. But that is the principle. In fact, the Four Noble Truths, Tilakkhana, and Paticca Samuppada are inter-related. If one understands one of them, one would understand the other two as well. See, “Paṭicca Samuppāda, Tilakkhana, Four Noble Truths”

That is a long answer. But I wanted to give a general answer that could be helpful for anyone.

P.S. Please read and understand the relevant posts suggested above before asking more questions. Answers to most questions are there in those posts. If something in those posts is not clear, please feel free to cite the post and bullet numbers and ask questions.

[Lal]

There are over 70 suttas in the “Sotāpatti Saṁyutta” that repeatedly state the four “measures” that one can use to determine whether one has attained the Sotapanna stage of Nibbana.

The series of suttas start with “Cakkavattirāja Sutta (SN 55.1).”

The English translation there is sufficient to get the basic idea. That first sutta starts by saying that an Emperor who controls all the countries on Earth (rājā cakkavattī) does not even come close to a Sotapanna who is free of births in the apayas.

Those suttas repeatedly state the “four possessions” of Sotapannas that make them free of the apayas.

P.S. I realized later that the English translation in the above link does not explain TWO keywords: “aveccappasāda” and “Ariyakanta sīla.”
– Those REQUIRE the comprehension of the Four Noble Truths/Tilakkhana/Paticca Samuppada.
– That is explained in the post, “Sotapatti Anga – The Four Qualities of a Sotāpanna.” See #4 there.

[Christian]

When you are Sotapanna you are able to see Paticca Samupadda cycle with your mind-eye (dhamma-eye). When you see how things are you are able to see things those things through Dhamma eye which is the new perception of world/life that one gain. To progress, one need to meditate or attain jhana or be close to jhana to have purity. I know Lal would argue or dismiss but I think it’s wrong to dismiss it, based on my practice, one will literally never progress without getting into jhana if you want to progress above Sakadagami, even from Sotapanna to Sakadagami one needs to be at least meditative and have purity of mind to push insight further, so one will need to be at least in close to jhana while chanting. There is no other way to progress. There are rare examples in the suttas like Bahiya etc. but most likely you do not have paramis to just go into Nibbana fully because you are able to realize some Dhamma concepts to some extent, which is not a small feat either but if you want true progress, get into jhana.

for example I thought I was Anagami when I first experienced the new awareness when studied Pure Dhamma, my mind was so deep in samadhi without any effort for many days there were not even inch of hate, greed and lust towards anything in sense doors after sometime it run out and things go back to normal BUT with the new insight and attained which I could work my way up again with permanent results, so your first judgement was probably from that first impact :)

[SengKiat]

Greetings! Christian,

In the A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, under Compendium of Categories, at Compendium of Mixed Categories under Faculties (§18 – page 273). Listed are the 22 faculties as below.

Bāvīsat’ indriyāni: cakkhundriyaṃ, sotindriyaṃ, ghānindriyaṃ, jivhindriyaṃ, kāyindriyaṃ, itthindriyaṃ, purisindriyaṃ, jīvitindriyaṃ, manindriyaṃ, sukhindriyaṃ, dukkhindriyaṃ, somanassindriyaṃ, domanassindriyaṃ, upekkhindriyaṃ, saddhindriyaṃ, viriyindriyaṃ, satindriyaṃ, samādhindriyaṃ, paññindriyaṃ, anaññātaññassāmītindriyaṃ, aññindriyaṃ, aññātāvindriyaṃ.
Twenty-two faculties: (1) the eye faculty, (2) the ear faculty, (3) the nose faculty, (4) the tongue faculty, (5) the body faculty, (6) the femininity faculty, (7) the masculinity faculty, (8) the life faculty, (9) the mind faculty, (10) the pleasure faculty, (11) the pain faculty, (12) the joy faculty, (13) the displeasure faculty, (14) the equanimity faculty, (15) the faith faculty, (16) the energy faculty, (17) the mindfulness faculty, (18) the concentration faculty, (19) the wisdom faculty, (20) the faculty, “I will know the unknown,” (21) the faculty of final knowledge, (22) the faculty of one who has final knowledge.

Item (20) (21) and (22) are the wisdom faculties (paññindriaya) of Lokuttara (supramundane) not Lokiya (mundane). While the item (19) is the wisdom faculty of the Lokiya (mundane).



Download the Wisdom faculty (paññindriaya) of Lokuttara (supramundane) Chart for better viewing.

According to the book “Guide to the Study of Theravada Buddhism Book 4” on the Reviewing Thought Process (Paccavekkhana Vīthi) (page 160 to 161) is as pasted below with my comment beneath it.

Reviewing Thought Process (Paccavekkhana Vīthi):

Once jhāna or the Path consciousness (Magga) has been attained it requires the yogi to look back on his attainment for clear confirmation. He should review the jhāna factors and for each jhāna factor a thought process occurs with five sense sphere (kāma) javana cittas.

Five jhāna factors are:
(1) Vitakka (Initial Application)
(2) Vicāra (Sustained Application)
(3) Pīti (Joy)
(4) Sukha (Happiness)
(5) Ekagattā (One Pointedness)

Ex – B Bc Bu Mn J J J J J B
Notes:
B – Bhavaṅga
Bc – Bhavaṅga calana
Bu – Bhavaṅga uppaccheda
Mn – Manodvārāvajjana
J – Jhāna

In the case of Magga Vīthi there will be five reviewing thought processes after the attainment of first magga. Each Paccavekkhana Vīthi will reflect on :

(1) Magga achieved
(2) Fruition consciousness
(3) Nibbāna
(4) Eradicated Defilements (Kilesa)
(5) Balance Defilements to be eradicated.

There will be five Paccavekkhana Vīthi after Sotāpatti, Sakadāgāmi and Anāgāmi magga. With regard to Arahantta Magga there will be only four Paccavekkhana Vīthi without the last one (Number Five) mentioned above.

My comment: It would seem that the yogi should be well verse in jhāna to be able to review thought process. So, even though, the yogi has attained the Sotāpatti, Sakadāgāmi, Anāgāmi and Arahatta magga (path), the yogi would not be able to review the five reviewing thought processes listed above unless the yogi is well verse in jhāna. This is only my opinion, unless those with path moment is able to state otherwise.

With mettā, Seng Kiat

[Lal]

Hello Christian,

Can you show evidence from the Tipitaka that cultivating jhanas is needed to attain magga phala?

[Christian]

There are plenty of suttas that say you can attain Nibbana, through jhanas, I would say the majority. To attain Nibbana and deepen insight one needs to have a pure mind to understand Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta deeper there is no other way, you will never be able to understand Anicca Dukkha Anatta in regular consciousness or “everyday mind”. All the basis of understanding true nature in the world is based on getting rid of 5 hindrances that block that understanding, once you get rid of those you will be in jhana, whatever you want it or not – the only thing you do not need is formless jhanas.

Saying that jhana may be hindrance is very bad Lang, one should practice chanting + understanding Anicca, Dukkha, and Anatta – how something that may help you understand Dhamma better can be a hindrance? It make no sense :)

[cubibobi]

Christian may have attained the jhanas and may be at or close to the anagami stage. This may be because he practiced jhanas in his more recent lives.

For the vast majority of lay people, focusing on jhanas may be an unnecessary hinder. I’d like to very briefly share my experience with that vast majority here, and then speculate on the possible hindrances for us of focusing on the jhanas.

I have not attained any jhanas, and I hope that I am at or near the sotapanna anugami stage.

Finding this website was like winning the jackpot for me. Since coming here, I can summarize my “practice” as:

(1) Studying the Buddha’s big picture: the wider world of 31 realms.
(2) Studying and overcoming the 10 types of miccha ditthi.
(3) Cultivating anicca sanna.

Personally, I am certain of one thing: I no longer have any of the 10 types of miccha ditthi. This does 2 wonderful things:

(1) It makes it easier to abstain from the BIG 8 consistently. The BIG 8 is discussed in the Meditation (bhavana) section.

When you learn of the apayā and the law of kamma, and are convinced of the rebirth process, you get quite motivated to abstain from the things that will land you there!

(2) It calms the mind and helps it absorb Dhamma concepts better.

There were times when I was just binge reading the posts and got absorbed in them because concepts were just clicking in the mind — naturally. It brings a natural joy — not piti sukkha since I was not in a jhana, but probably niramisa sukha.

Meanwhile, in observing the change in my personal life, I am almost certain that lobha has reduced to raga, and it is quite a relief. At the same time, I hope that dosa has reduced to patigha, and moha to avijja, but I am not sure of that.

My speculations of possible hindrances about focusing on the jhanas.

(1) It is hard!
Even to get to anariya jhanas one needs to live a secluded life. In daily life in an American metropolis, with a daily job and household responsibilities, social responsibilities, it’s next to impossible.

(2) One may go astray, depending how or from whom one learns jhanas.
A few prominent jhanas teachers come to mind:

• Leigh Brasington and Tina Rasmussen, who studied with Pa Auk Sayadaw
• Ayya Khema

I am quite reluctant to say what I am about to say about people who have attained jhanas, but I do not want to make vague claims. If you research these teachers, you will see in their teachings some contradictions with what we learn here:

(1)
Practice Samatha bhavana first to calm the mind (with breath or kasina) to bring about jhanas.

(2)
Stopping thinking. We know that this is dangerous, as Lal pointed out in the Meditation section.

(3)
They take anapanasati to be breath meditation.

I hope this helps with those in a similar situation as mine.

Best,
Lang

[Christian]

You can not practice anicca sanna with regular mind as everyday mind is kama bhumi, you only will make your mind tired and you will actually have more raga and dosa by doing “anicca sanna” dry

[Lal]

Christian wrote: “There are plenty of suttas that say you can attain Nibbana, through jhanas, I would say the majority.”

1. Please provide the names of the suttas that say jhanas are REQUIRED to attain the Sotapanna stage.
– As one attains higher magga phala, jhanas come naturally to some people.
– By the Arahant stage, most may have attained all Ariya jhanas. That is especially the case for Cetovimutta Arahants.

2. Also, anariya jhanas are very common. But just having jhanas DOES NOT NECESSARILY mean one is even at the Sotapanna Anugami stage.
– But, of course, it is a good thing to attain even anariya jhanas.
– Also, some at the Sotapanna stage may have anariya jhanas too.
– So, there are many possibilities/combinations.

3. Jhanic states correspond to the “consciousness” of Brahmas in the Brahmas realms.
– Most of them don’t have magga phala and are “not released” from future births in the apayas.

[Christian]

I’m not saying that jhanas are needed for Sotapanna but needed to progress from Sotapanna higher, even to grasp Sotapanna stage you need to have pure mind at that moment by either “grace” of Ariya or be near first jhana to calm your mind

[Lal]

1. It is not good to propagate things that may lead to misconceptions. There are many misconceptions about jhanas today. They can have very bad consequences.
– For example, I know that some people are discouraged by their inability to attain jhanas. But some of them may even have the Sotapanna Anugami stage. The specific conditions REQUIRED to attain Sotapanna Anugami/Sotapanna stages are listed in over 70 suttas (same conditions) provided in my previous comment above.
(P.S. I realized later that the English translation in those 70 suttas do not explain TWO keywords: “aveccappasāda” and “Ariyakanta sīla.” See, “Cakkavattirāja Sutta (SN 55.1)”
– Those REQUIRE the comprehension of the Four Noble Truths/Tilakkhana/Paticca Samuppada.
– That is explained in the post, “Sotapatti Anga – The Four Qualities of a Sotāpanna.” See #4 there.)

– I am also aware of some who believe they have Ariya jhanas, but they live normal family lives. They are being misled. As I have shown, one needs to be an Anagami to attain even the first Ariya jhana.

2. All that is REQUIRED to attain ANY magga phala is “anuloma samadhi.”
– That is shown at the end of the post, “Citta Vīthi – Processing of Sense Inputs” where the conditions for magga phala and jhana are listed.

[cubibobi]

–Christian said:
Saying that jhana may be hindrance is very bad Lang, …

I meant to say: for those starting out on “meditation”, and this is a Sotapanna forum, having jhana as a focal point brings certain unnecessary problems. I should have used “problems” instead of “hindrances” because of the other context of “5 hindrances”.

I listed a few “problems”, but another very common one is what Lal mentioned:

“– For example, I know that some people are discouraged by their inability to attain jhanas.”

This is quite common for people practicing samatha meditation — breath, kasina.

— Christian said:
“… and you will actually have more raga and dosa by doing “anicca sanna” dry”

I have seen this from a few jhana teachers as well: a dry mind cannot grasp deep insights.

I assume that by “dry” they meant a mind not in or near a jhana state, probably the same thing Christian referred to as “regular consciousness” and “everyday mind”.

In my experience, there is nothing “dry” about niramisa sukha. About insights, one does develop them over time — via living a moral life and learning true Dhamma — and those insights are stable and get absorbed into how one lives their life.

Best,
Lang

[SengKiat]

Greetings! Christian,

I have a reply to you post above which you may want to have a look by clicking on this link.

With mettā, Seng Kiat

[Dawson]

The more bandwidth we devote to wrong things (in any given moment), the less likely it will be that we’ll have insights, the likes of which are necessary to progress along the path.

Therefore, it’s in our interest to ensure that we don’t apply this bandwidth to the wrong things, and do apply it to the right things. In very broad brushstrokes, this seems to be what anapanasati and satipatthana are concerned with.

So then we can see that when this is done successfully, we will be getting closer and closer to Samma Samadhi. In other words, the closer we get to that, the more likely insights become.

You can observe this in your own immediate experience – let your mind run wild for a few minutes. Then, practice true mindfulness (as described at Pure Dhamma) and within moments, you’ll notice an increase in clarity. That trend will continue as you continue to successfully practice ‘mindfulness’. In so doing, you are walking the eightfold noble path in that moment.

I may be missing something here, but that’s how it seems to me so far.

[Lal]

Comments by Lang and Dawson do make sense.

Seng Kiat is an Abhidhamma scholar. He enjoys “looking deeper” as I do too.

The types of indriya listed in Seng Kiat’s earlier post:

“Bāvīsat’ indriyāni: cakkhundriyaṃ, sotindriyaṃ, ghānindriyaṃ, jivhindriyaṃ, kāyindriyaṃ, itthindriyaṃ, purisindriyaṃ, jīvitindriyaṃ, manindriyaṃ, sukhindriyaṃ, dukkhindriyaṃ, somanassindriyaṃ, domanassindriyaṃ, upekkhindriyaṃ, saddhindriyaṃ, viriyindriyaṃ, satindriyaṃ, samādhindriyaṃ, paññindriyaṃ, anaññātaññassāmītindriyaṃ, aññindriyaṃ, aññātāvindriyaṃ.

Twenty-two faculties: (1) the eye faculty, (2) the ear faculty, (3) the nose faculty, (4) the tongue faculty, (5) the body faculty, (6) the femininity faculty, (7) the masculinity faculty, (8) the life faculty, (9) the mind faculty, (10) the pleasure faculty, (11) the pain faculty, (12) the joy faculty, (13) the displeasure faculty, (14) the equanimity faculty, (15) the faith faculty, (16) the energy faculty, (17) the mindfulness faculty, (18) the concentration faculty, (19) the wisdom faculty, (20) the faculty, “I will know the unknown,” (21) the faculty of final knowledge, (22) the faculty of one who has final knowledge.

The last three types are the three types of ñāna grasped, respectively, at Sotapanna, higher magga phala leading to the Arahant stage, and at the Arahant stage.
– At the Sotapanna stage, one realizes that one has “seen” the way to Nibbana, i.e., one would have the anaññātaññassāmītindriya. That is why the Buddha called Ven. Kondanna “aññā Kndanna” upon him attaining the Sotapanna stage.
– At higher levels of magga phala, aññindriya grows as one meditates on the anicca, dukkha, and anatta nature and comprehends them at higher levels.
– An Arahant has the aññātāvindriya, meaning he/she knows that the process is complete and there is nothing more to do.

There is no connection to jhana.

See “Indriya Sutta (Iti 62)”
– The English translation is not quite right, but you can get the idea.

[cubibobi]

I’d like to ask about the following post, and I’d ask it here since we did refer to the current series here.

Sakkāya Diṭṭhi and Pañcupādānakkhandhā

You mentioned a “person” in several places:

#2
iv. The point is that a “person” is not consciously involved in that fast process.

#8
The concept of khandhas shows that at least the initial attachment DOES NOT involve a person. As I have tried to explain in the posts in this section, experiencing sensory input is an automatic process.

Sakkāya Diṭṭhi = View that “There is an Unchanging Person” Experiencing the World
#9
That means “there is no unchanging person.”

#10
The point here is that the idea of a “person” seeing a tree (and generating mental aspects based on it) is not what actually happens.

So, the initial sensory processing is automatic, but somehow at the khandā level a “person” is conjured up.

I recall that in another post you wrote that the Buddha said that viññāṇa is like a magician. Is this an example of that? That viññāṇa produces the notion of a “person” out of an automatic process.

Is this also related to atta/anatta? The notion of a “person” implies that somebody is in control or in charge (atta) when the true nature of sensory processing is such that nobody is “in charge” (anatta)?

Thank you, as always, for all the series of posts. I am about to read the last one in the series.

Lang

[Lal]

Yes. As you wrote, “So, the initial sensory processing is automatic, but somehow at the khandā level a “person” is conjured up.”

1. What takes place in the mind is a PROCESS.
-The hadaya vatthu only gets very short “snapshots” of any sensory experiences.
– For example, while watching a movie, bits of sound and visual inputs come in at a very fast rate. The mind can connect the appropriate bits of sound and visuals and put together a coherent sound and a visual.
– I have tried to explain this in several posts using the “movie analogy.” See, for example the following two posts in the current series: “Vision Is a Series of “Snapshots” – Movie Analogy” and “Aggregate of Forms – Collection of “Mental Impressions” of Forms”
– It may be a good idea to scan through that subsection, the last post of which I posted today:
“Paṭicca Samuppāda During a Lifetime”

2. The key point that one grasps when getting rid of sakkaya ditthi is that there is no permanent “soul-type entity.”
– Of course, the perception of a “me” and “I” will be there until the Arahant stage.
– At the Sotapanna stage, one only SEES (OR REALIZES) that there is no “unchanging person.”
– Getting rid of the “sense of me” (asmi māna) happens only at the Arahant stage.

3. Lang wrote: “I recall that in another post you wrote that the Buddha said that viññāṇa is like a magician. Is this an example of that? That viññāṇa produces the notion of a “person” out of an automatic process.”
– That is correct.

4. Lang wrote: “Is this also related to atta/anatta? The notion of a “person” implies that somebody is in control or in charge (atta) when the true nature of sensory processing is such that nobody is “in charge” (anatta)?”
– They are related, but anatta (in anicca, dukka, anatta) means “unfruitful nature.” See, “Anatta is a Characteristic of the World, not About a ‘Self’”
– Atta and anatta have several different meanings and need to be understood in the context where the words are used. Also attā is different from “atta.” For example, in “Attā Hi Attanō Nāthō” “attā” (with a long “ā”) indicates a :person” in the mundane sense.

[Jorg]

Speaking of jhana, there’s one thing that I can’t get my head around.
Ajahn Brahm speaks a lot on jhana and does jhana retreats. According to him, one loses
(physical) sense contact completely and one stops hearing altogether. When you can hear, you’re not in jhana, he says. (He never mentions words like ariya or anariya btw.)

He has shared many present-day stories on how people stay in jhanas for hours or even days.
also a story from the sutta when a monk got “cremated” in the forest, and was seen later in the village by the people who cremated him because they thought he was dead (so at least fourth jhana I presume).
However, he teaches to get into jhanas via breath.
According to what I’ve learned and my own experiences I’m a bit confused with his statements. So what exactly is it when people are shut off from the world even in the FIRST jhana as he says. Also, I remember him saying that jhana leads to one of four results according to Buddha; sotapanna sakadagami, anagami or arahant.
If he has misunderstood something, that’s one thing, but I would doubt the man is straight out lying in his position. So, again, confused :)
Oh right, AND being in jhana makes you “invincible” as in you can’t really get hurt.

I remember another story btw of a retreat held by a Vietnamese monk who, on day 1, entered jhana and got out at the end of the retreat 8 days or so later, and then apologized for being “absent” to his students.

[Lal]

1. Yes. Not many teachers truly understand details about jhanas. Of course, these details have been hidden for many centuries until Waharaka Thero made self-consistent explanations.
– There are Ariya jhana (kama raga ELIMINATED) and anariya jhana (kama raga SUPPRESSED)
– Then there are jhana and jhana samapatti.

2. When in a jhana, jhana citta DO NOT run continuously. So, in effect one goes in and out of jhana. That is why one in a jhana can see, hear, etc.
– But when in jhana samapatti, jhana citta run CONTINUOUSLY. Thus, one in jhana samapatti CAN NOT see, hear, etc.

3. Jorg wrote: “also a story from the sutta when a monk got “cremated” in the forest, and was seen later in the village by the people who cremated him because they thought he was dead..”
– That is an account of an Arahant who was in Nirodha Samapatti. That is a special case of a samapatti. One needs to get to the highest “arupavacara jhana” AND be an Arahant to get to nirodha samapatti.
– The body of someone in nirodha samapatti can not be destroyed.

4. Jorg wrote: “However, he teaches to get into jhanas via breath.”
– That is unfortunate. Breath meditation can ONLY lead to anariya jhana.

5. I suggest reading the new post that I just posted: “Rāga and Jhāna – Two Commonly Misunderstood Words”
– It has more details and links for further details.

[Jorg]

Thanks for the link Lal. I’ve read the post. Though, my point might have not come across fully. Allow me to use Ajahn Brahm’s own words from his book, found in the link below. This is section: “PART THREE The Landmarks of All Jhana” I bolded the parts I was directly or indirectly referring to:

“No thought, no decision-making, no perception of time. From the
moment of entering a jhana, one will have no control. One will be unable
to give orders as one normally does. The very idea of “what should I do
next” cannot even come up. When the “will” that is controlling vanishes
away, then the “I will” that fashions one’s concept of future also
disappears. The concept of time ceases in Jhana. Within a Jhana, one
cannot decide what to do next. One cannot even decide when to come
out. It is this absolute absence of will and its offspring, time, that give
the jhanas the feature of timeless stability and that lead to jhana states
persisting, sometimes for many blissful hours.

Non-Dual Consciousness. Because of the perfect one-pointedness,
because attention is so fixed, one loses the faculty of perspective with in
Jhana. Comprehension relies on the technique of comparison, relating
this to that, here to there, now with then. In jhana, all that is perceived
is non-dual bliss, unmoving, compelling, not giving any space for the
arising of perspective. It is like that puzzle where one is shown a still
photograph of a well-known object but from an unusual angle, and one
has to guess what it is. It is very difficult to comprehend such an object
when one is unable to turn to over, or move one’s head to look at it this
way and that. When perspective is removed, so is comprehension. Thus
in jhana, not only is there no sense of time, but also there is no
comprehension of what is going on! At the time, one will not even know
what jhana one is in. All one knows is great bliss, unmoving,
unchanging, for unknown lengths of time.

Awareness of Bliss that Doesn’t Move. Even though there is no
comprehension within any jhana, due to the lack of perspective, one is
certainly not on a trance. One’s mindfulness is hugely increased to a
level of sharpness that is truly incredible. One is immensely aware.
Only mindfulness doesn’t move. It is frozen. And the stillness of the
super, superpower mindfulness, the perfect one-pointedness of
awareness, makes the jhana experience completely different to anything
one has known before. This is not unconsciousness. It is non-dual
consciousness. All it can know is one thing, and that is timeless bliss
that doesn’t move.
Afterwards, when one has emerged from jhana, such consummate onepointedness of consciousness falls apart. With the weakening of onepointedness, perspective re-emerges and the mind has the agility to move
again. The mind has regained the space needed to compare and
comprehend. Ordinary consciousness has returned.
Having just emerged from a jhana, it is usual practice to look back at
what has happened and review the jhana experience. The jhanas are
such powerful events that they leave an indelible record in one’s memory
store. In fact, one will never forget them as lone as one lives. Thus, they
are easy to recall, with perfect retention of detail, after emerging. It is
through such reviewing right after the event, that one comprehends the
details of what happened in the jhana, and one knows which of the
jhanas it was. Moreover, the data obtained from reviewing a jhana forms
the basis of insight that is Enlightenment itself.
The Five Senses are Fully Shut Off. Another strange quality that
distinguishes jhana from all other experiences is that within jhana all the
five senses are totally shut down. One cannot see, one cannot hear, one
cannot smell, taste nor feel touch. One cannot hear the sound of the
birds, nor a person coughing. Even if there were a thunderclap nearby,
it wouldn’t be heard in a jhana. If someone tapped one on the shoulder,
or picked one up and let one down, in jhana one cannot know this. The
mod in jhana is so completely cut off from these five senses that they
cannot break in.”

Then he shares a story in the same chapter, one of many stories I’ve heard him share:

“A lay disciple once told me how he had “fluked” a deep jhana while
meditating at home. His wife thought he hade died and sent for an
ambulance. He was rushed to hospital in a wail of loud sirens. In the
emergency room, there was no heartbeat registered on the E.C.G., nor
brain activity to be seen by the E.E.G. So the doctor on put defibrillators
on his chest to re-activate his heart. Even though he was being bounced
up and down on the hospital bed through the force of the electric shocks,
he didn’t feel a thing! When he emerged from the jhana in the emergency
room, perfectly all right, he had no knowledge of how he had got there,
nor of ambulances and sirens, nor of body-jerking defibrillators. All that
long time that he was in jhana, he was fully aware, but only of bliss.
This is an example of what is meant by the five senses shutting down
within the experience of jhana.”

Here’s the link to the book:
https://jhana8.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/The-Jhanas-Ajahn-Brahmavamso.pdf

He’s not specifically referring 4th jhana btw. He has clearly stated this happens from the first jhana onward. So my question is, What kind of jhana is this?

[Lal]

Hello, Jorg.

1. I think Ajahn is describing a kind of samadhi that he has cultivated.
– There are only four jhana that the Buddha described. In Abhidhamma the second jhana is split into two, so the number becomes five. That is just a matter of details.
– But there can be billions of samadhi. Therein lies the danger. Depending on what one is cultivating, one can get into different states of the mind. It seems to me that Ajahn has cultivated an “asañ­ña samadhi” where he does not perceive anything. But, of course, I would not know exactly what it is.
– It is interesting to note that the experience of the lay disciple at the end of your comment seems to be also the same.
– They could be cultivating some kind of “asañ­ña samadhi” which can be dangerous.
– P.S. It is only in nirodha samapatti (of an Arahant) that one becomes totally unaware of “this world”. That is NOT an “asañ­ña samadhi” because one gets into that samapatti by systematically going up the ladder of jhana, getting to the highest arupavacara state (Neva­saññā­nā­sañ­ñāyata­na) and then entering nirodha samapatti.

2. One enters a jhana knowingly, and one stays in a jhana knowingly.
– One can think very clearly in a jhana (even better in a samapatti). That is the advantage of a jhana.
– If one knows what one is doing (and realizes the unfruitfulness of jhana in the end), a jhana provides the best environment for “insight meditation” (vipassana).

3. The jhanic experience is described in great detail in the “Sāmañ­ña­phala Sutta (DN 2)“
– I am not sure how good that translation is. I have not read it, at least recently.
– My explanation of the sutta is in the post, “Jhānic Experience in Detail – Sāmañ­ña­phala Sutta (DN 2)”

4. That sutta also provides a good background as well. In it, the Buddha describes to a King the benefits of the life of a bhikkhu (“The Fruits of the Ascetic Life” as the title of the English translation there correctly states).
– In the first part of the sutta, is the important background of a person giving up the lay life and becoming a bhikkhu. As I have explained in the newest post, “Rāga and Jhāna – Two Commonly Misunderstood Words” it is impossible for a layperson to cultivate Ariya jhana, unless becoming an “Anagārika.”
– The detailed description of the jhanic experience is toward the end of the sutta starting in section 4.3.2.5. Paṭhamajhāna (First Absorption)

[Jorg]

Thanks for your detailed response again, Lal. That’s very helpful. It actually led me to a deeper understanding of jhana samapatti.

Ajahn Brahm is from the Thai Forest tradition and this is how he was taught by Ajahn Chah. So it’s not just him. Many Theravidians know of this technique. He describes the step-by-step process in his book I linked to above. The stopping of the breath in the 4th jhana is also clearly stated, which coincides with what I’ve read from the posts here. When they come out of the meditation they can recall what happened. Just not during the meditation. I wonder if that would be possible if it’s a kind of asañña samadhi.

[Lal]

My main points are:

1. Each person (especially Ajahn himself) needs to see whether the experience described in that book you quote matches the description in the “Sāmañ­ña­phala Sutta (DN 2)“.
– As the Sutta clearly describes, “One enters a jhana knowingly, and one stays in a jhana knowingly.” Each jhana is described with its unique experience.

2. Even if it is a jhana, it is an anariya jhana reached via breath meditation, which is NOT the Anapana meditation that the Buddha described in the Anapanasati Sutta and many other suttas. That breath meditation was there even before the Buddha attained the Buddhahood. He learned it from two yogis in the early days before the Buddhahood and realized the futility of such anariya jhana.
– Of course, most Theravadins have been INCORRECTLY teaching this breath meditation for many hundreds of years. It is not Ajahn’s fault. Until Waharaka Thero provided the correct interpretation within the past 20 years, that was the ONLY interpretation available.
– I will write a few posts on the correct interpretation of the Anapanasati Sutta. We can discuss those posts.
– I have written a few posts (in “Bhāvanā (Meditation)“), but it seems to me that a better approach is to just describe the Anapanasati Sutta (MN 118). We all can discuss it at that time.

P.S. The tendency to translate suttas word-by-word is a key problem that we are facing today. Many deep suttas need to be explained in detail. See, “Sutta Interpretation – Uddēsa, Niddēsa, Paṭiniddēsa”
– Thus “assasa” and “passasa” are mistranslated as “breathing in and breathing out.” That is a mundane translation of those words.

[Jorg]

Appreciate your input!

– I will write a few posts on the correct interpretation of the Anapanasati Sutta. We can discuss those posts.

Looking forward to that.

[cubibobi]

It will be FANTASTIC to have a few posts of the Anapanasati Sutta! They may be the only source in English where the sutta is explained as it truly is, and not as breathing in and breathing out.

Best,
Lang

[Lal]

Promised post just published: “Ānāpānasati – Overview”

Please post comments/questions at “Posts on ‘Elephants in the Room’”
– Start a new topic there with a question or comment.

[cubibobi]

I can’t wait to read the post. But first, Jorg mentioned Ajahn Bram, and I’d like to ask one follow-up question, since I used to spend much time studying Ajahn’s teaching — with great joy.

I’ll ask my question right up front, which is about Dhammapada verse 372, and give the context of my question afterwards. Ajahn rendered this verse as:

“There is no jhana without wisdom
There is no wisdom without jhana
But for one with both jhana and wisdom
They are in the presence of Nibbana”

I looked up the Pali verse and found this:

“Natthi jhanam apannassa
panna natthi ajhayato
yamhi jhananca panna ca
sa ve nibbanasantike.”

Question: is this rendering close? My Pali is not that good yet.

Anyone who has studied Ajahn Brahm would undoubtedly get that he encourages people to get into jhana. One can see this in his talks and writing. Just as an example, he wrote a little booklet called “The Basic Method of Meditation”, which one can actually download from here:

https://bswa.org/bswp/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Ajahn_Brahmavamso_the_Basic_Method_of_Meditation.pdf

He described how to get to the 1st jhana, and he ended with the wish: “MAY ALL BEINGS GET JHANA”.

He also wrote a book that described his method of meditation in details: “Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond”. Part 2 of that book, starting with Chapter 11, is about the jhanas. In fact, he even wrote that what the Buddha discovered was the jhanas (page 127).

He concluded that chapter with Dhammapada verse 372. Hence my question.

This book is not available online, but there is a booklet that pretty condenses the book:

The jhanas
https://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/thejhanas.pdf

Finally, just an interesting aside: some students of Ajahn suggested that his name, Brahmavamso, was no coincidence. The name means “he of Brahma’s lineage”, which really fits Ajahn.

Thank you!
Lang

[Tobias G]

Hi Lang, this I also asked in another post.

SengKiat answered:
This is my translation:
There is no jhāna for (those) without pañña,
pañña, there is not for (those) without jhāna,
Which ever indeed have jhāna and paññā,
that truly is near to Nibbāna.

Translation from Tipiṭaka.net:
Verse 372: There can be no concentration in one who lacks wisdom; there can be no wisdom in one who lacks concentration. He who has concentration as well as wisdom is, indeed, close to Nibbana.

With mettā, Seng Kiat

—————-
Lal answered:
jhāna does not necessarily mean transcending the kāma loka and attaining “jhānic states” as commonly interpreted these days.

“Jhāna” means to “cleanse one’s defilements (especially kāma raga“) by making an effort, especially via Anapanasati and Satipatthana Bhavana.
– When one does that panna grows and one may also attain “jhānic states.”

This verse basically says that one needs to cultivate both jhāna and panna. The latter, of course, via learning true Dhamma. In fact, they grow together.

One can get a better idea of the meaning of the verse by looking at other verses in the sequence:
“Dhammapada Verses 368 to 376“

[Lal]

This issue of jhanas is related to that of “breath meditation.” It seems to me that questions will keep coming until both issues are tackled in a comprehensive manner.

I will start writing posts on jhanas as well in a comprehensive manner referring to the Tipitaka, just like what I am doing with the Anapanasati. See the first post “Ānāpānasati – Overview”
– Hopefully, I will finish the first such post on jhana within the next two weeks.

P.S. Any questions/comments on either of those issues need to be discussed at “Posts on ‘Elephants in the Room’“

[LayDhammaFollower]

When I started this thread, I was not able to even understand what was wrong the worldly existence from POV of buddha dhamma. But now I can see adīnava of it.

You have frequently said that a Sottapana no longer NECESSARILY needs any guidance on how to get free from assadā.

Yet, I am not able to see any nissarana from Samsarā. What would vimutti looklike. I don’t understand.

Right now I am trying to devlop clarity on basics of dhamma. I understand sakkāya, yathabhuta Nana, PañcaUpādānaKhandha and now I can confidently claim that I have BASIC understanding/insight into first noble truth as well.

I understand that all of us are going through the same kind of sufferings at base level. None of us could keep what we like as we wish. And there is nothing out there except nibbanā which could grant us nissarana from all the adīnava of sansarā.

Yet, I DON’T SEE SYSTEMATIC WAY TO PROGRESS IN DHAMMA. I AM TRYING TO LEARN AS MUCH AS ABOUT BUDDHA DHAMMA WITH ALL IT’S SUBTLETY.
Maybe I need more development of samma diṭṭhi. I feel like I am starting to understand what buddha was trying to say.
Yet, I am not sure.

[Lal]

This is an excellent point to discuss.

You wrote that you have seen the dangers in remaining in the rebirth process, but “Yet, I DON’T SEE SYSTEMATIC WAY TO PROGRESS IN DHAMMA.”

1. When one gets to the realization that the rebirth process is “filled with suffering” and thus one must try to attain Nibbana” that is Samma Ditthi, the FIRST STEP on the EIGHTFOLD Noble Path.

2. Next, one must keep the thoughts of the unfruitfulness and dangers of the rebirth process in one’s mind/thoughts at all times. That is the SECOND STEP of Samma Sankappa. By the way, those thoughts are rooted in the contemplation of the “anicca, dukkha, anatta nature” of this world.
– Then one would speak accordingly. One would not engage in thoughts/speech that could lengthen the rebirth process. That is Samma Vaca, the THIRD STEP.
– Same with one’s actions, i.e., Samma Kammanta, the FOURTH STEP.

3. When one is engaged in all three of those steps, one will be living not just a moral life but also a life that is dedicated to attaining Nibbana, to stop the rebirth process. That is Samma Ajiva, the FIFTH STEP.

4. When one can EXPERIENCE the fruits of such a life, one will make further effort to maintain and accelerate it. That is Samma Vayama, the SIXTH STEP.

5. With time one’s thoughts, speech, and actions will be increasingly based on the mindset of attaining Nibbana or the unfruitfulness/danger in the remaining in the rebirth process. That is Samma Sati, the SEVENTH STEP.

6. As one makes progress, Samma Samadhi will grow. That is the EIGHTH STEP.
– Samādhi (“sama”+”adhi” where “sama” means “equilibrium” and “adhi” means “dominance”) means keeping the mind keeping the mind focused on a single ārammaṇa or a nimitta.
– Thus, one’s mind will be increasingly moving away from this world to Nibbana.

7. Those steps don’t take place one at a time. One would be cultivating all EIGHT steps. For example, the more one gets into Samma Samadhi, all other steps will be affected; if one makes more effort, all other steps will be affected, etc.
– When one completes Samma Samadhi at the Arahant stage, all other steps would have been fulfilled too.

8. By the way, what I discussed above is the cultivation of the correct Anapanasati/Satipatthana.

9. Furthermore, a preliminary version of it can be followed even before becoming a Sotapanna Anugami.
– That is the mundane eightfold path. That will make one able to get to mundane samma samadhi and be able to comprehend Tilakkhana and Paticca Samuppada.
– As we have discussed before, there is mundane sammā samādhi that is reached by getting rid of the 10 types of micchā diṭṭhi. Then there is lokōttara Sammā Samādhi that is reached by comprehending Tilakkhana to some extent; see, “Buddha Dhamma – In a Chart“.

[cubibobi]

“What would vimutti look like. I don’t understand.”

vimutti (nibbana) is experienced in stages. One way for us at this stage to see what it looks like is to observe raga in your mind, especially kamaraga since we are in the kama loka.

Nibbana is “cooling down”, something that can be observed in oneself. Elsewhere on this site (you can do a search for it), it is said that the anagami stage is actually the easiest to verify.

I know that Lal has given an analogy of someone watching an adult movie. If no sexual thoughts at all arise then he/she is an anagami.

Besides kama raga, I also remember that patigha does not arise either, so an anagami does not get angry at anything.

So that’s what vimutti looks like at the anagami stage.

Personally, I am able to observe the cooling down in myself; I do not plan to watch any adult movie any time soon as a test — not enough confidence for that yet — but the point is that the cooling down is definitely noticeable.

Best,
Lang

[Lal]

Yes. As Lang explained, “vimutti” (release from the Samsaric suffering) is experienced at different levels.
– Of course, the “ultimate release” is at the Parinibbana of an Arahant.

[LayDhammaFollower]

To Lang: #38300

If you would test yourself at early stage I would say whatever deep anusuya is there inside your mind, it would surely come up and disturb you much.

I recently felt like Testing myself and frankly I did so. Result was that after heavy stimulation, I was aroused.

Yet, One thing I could notice is that this disturbance is much different from what you feel before ariya phala.
(as in less intense and even in this disturbance there is insight present about the drawbacks of that assāda, it was not like I completely got onto it, immersed into it to the point where I could lose discernment or lose any sati.)

If someone was not ariya I am sure Heavy sexual stimuli would put them into animalistic Bhavā temporarily.

Anyways, thanks for reply.

I hope that may all of us would achieve anāgāmi stage soon. That would be most important and useful achievement of our life.

[Author]

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