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Theruwan saranai.
Hello everybody.
Long ago, I come across this explanation of jhanas, and I found it to be quite helpful.
The teacher is Anagami, probably.
He can stay in Nirodha Samapati for up to 6 days!
Revealing Nirodha Samāpatti – Delson Armstrong, Shinzen Young, Chelsey Fasano, & Dr Raikkonen
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“The teacher is Anagami, probably.”
- How can an Anagami get into nirodha samapatti?
- One must be an Arahant to get into nirodha samapatti.
Can you provide the time stamps in the video where he gives evidence that he can get into nirodha samapatti?
- More importantly, where (what time in the video) does he talk about what is meant by nirodha samapatti?
I guess all those are discussed in the second video.
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It is just he is saying stuff. Can you or he answer the following questions:
1. Where is the evidence? Do they show the brain scans?
- If the brain scans show no activity, he is experiencing an “asanna state” where one does not feel anything.
- That is not Nibbana or nirodha samapatti.
2. Does he say he is an Anagami or Arahant?
- Does he say he has lost “kama raga“? For example, can he watch an adult movie without getting sexually aroused?
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In this video, he briefly mentions he doesn’t have any cravings.
2:00
It’s difficult to know if he’s anagami or not.
But their 6r’s method does work.
If anybody likes testing stuff, and then thinking. Then go ahead and do it. that’s what I did.
At first, I thought they were all liars.
What I did was just put the 6Rs in my usual practice. I was in jhana quite easily!
It’s probably related to that relaxing step they use. -
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“What is the ultimate goal for you?”
Nothing less than ultimate reality, absolute truth or whatever they call it. At the very least anagami.“Is it to enjoy the jhanic experiences?”
NO. After some injuries, I realized Jhana was not that reliable and i couldn’t get to a deep state of mind anymore.
That’s why I searched for better methods. Googled it, and ended up here. It’s been a year since I’ve been studying the site. thank you.
As for this post I just wanted to introduce 6r’s it’s not a new thing. It’s a right effort that everybody knows + relax.
It can be used for vipassana too. That’s how I’m using it right now. Not the object of meditation, but method 6rs alone.
The object of my meditation for both jhana and vipassana has always been the sound of Nada, some call it the sound of silence.
How to use it for vipassana has been explained by Ajahn Amaro. For entering jhana you should apply 6rs. Other method out there can cuz serious harm. I’m still experiencing the side effects.“Can you describe your jhanic experience?”
If you are using this sound to enter jhana, then it’s going to be super fun, based on how deep you are in jhana or samadhi. The tune and its volume changes. letting you know where you are and where you going.
When it comes to this sound there’s a lot to say.
As for jhanic experiences, the deeper you go the more the body becomes air-like, usually the perception of solidness goes away. Beginning from the foot. In some cases the body seems to get very tall and strange, there are a lot of strange things that happen don’t know where to begin. Usual experiences are a light body and a sense of comeness. Sometimes extreme joy delight. Some time still and quit, free from usual blabbering thoughts.
In higher states extraordinarily balanced mind, doesn’t grab at things like sounds with hate or lust, at that point usually below the neck is not felt. And strangely it seems that the usual feelings in my chest have moved, I remember some sort of energy from my chest going through spin on top of my skull, at the 3 or 4 jhana.
A lot of strange stuff, hearing bell-like sounds in both ears, not from physical objects…“Which jhana can you get to?”
3 or 4. It’s not that hard to get to this state. I don’t know whay everybody says it’s hard. It’s probably the method. Just sit 2 hours on each setting 1/5 even 1 hour 3 to 4 times a day. Walking works too, I remember being in a very busy city with the sound of cars and all, still my mind was in some deep state. My body was like air while walking and I could hear the nada in the background.Sorry for the late answer. English is not my first language.
And sorry for my lazy answers. There’s a lot I want to say, but language, this old phone, and my broken English; kind of stopping me.Thank you.
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I have not watched the video posted on this thread, but I happen to know of this method or technique (if we can call it that) of the 6Rs. It is also called TWIM (Tranquil Wisdom Insight Meditation).
It was the teaching from the late bhikkhu Bhante Vimalaramsi at Dhamma Sukha Meditation Center:
https://www.dhammasukha.org/the-6rs
In this link there is a video instructions of the meditation:
Instructions for Metta or Lovingkindness Meditation and the 6Rs by Bhante Vimalaramsi
There are many talks by Bhante Vimalaramsi on Youtube about metta bhavana that leads to jhana.
My guess is that Delson Armstrong is now the principal teacher at Dhamma Sukha.
Best,
Lang -
Thanks, Lang.
I watched the second video, which does give the instructions. They are very simple (six R’s): Recognize (bad thoughts), Release, Relax (with mundane metta), Re-assemble?, Return, Repeat.
- So, it is another variation of the breath mediation. Instead of focusing the mind on the breath, focus on “spreading metta.”
- In a way, it is an improvement over the neutral breath.
How easy is it to get a jhana using this method? Please comment if anyone other than Amin has used this method. Amin says it is easy.
- Is one supposed to do “insight meditation” to attain magga phala? That is the next question.
- If there is an instruction video on that, please post it. I would like to see what that involves.
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After Relax, it is “Re-smile” — intentionally putting on a smile before returning to the object of meditation (metta) after a distraction. The Bhante did say that he put the smiling step in there himself since he found it helpful.
A very popular talk from the Bhante is this one:
What is a Jhana? Commentaries vs Suttas – Meaning?
At around 27:35, he said how easy it was to get to the 1st jhana.
At around 22:00 he talked about smiling.
From about 1:00, he talked about how one moves from jhana to jhana and then to nibbana (by seeing “dependent origination”).
Personally, at one point I listened to Bhante a lot although I did not practice this, at least not as the main practice. I must say it did bring a sense of calm fairly quickly, but then I directed that calm mind to contemplating anicca, dukkha, anatta, although near the end of the talk the Bhante said that one cannot see nibbana via seeing anicca, dukkha, anatta.
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Thanks, Lang.
- I watched the video until Bhante started talking about Paticca Samuppada. I am afraid he does not understand it.
- That is all I needed to know.
So, this is not any better than Goenka Vipassana!
- I get depressed when I see how little of Buddha Dhamma is being taught. It is a sad situation.
- Whether people can get to anariya jhana is not a factor at all. We all had attained the highest jhanas uncountable times in our past.
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I forgot to explain how I concluded Bhante did not understand Paticca Samuppada (Dependent Origination.)
- He discussed it starting at 35 minutes in the video Lang posted: “What is a Jhana? Commentaries vs Suttas – Meaning?“
- It is a very superficial explanation. In particular, at 37 minutes, he describes “bhava.” I don’t think he understands it.
- He says bhikkhu Bodhi translates “bhava” as “experience,” and bhikkhu Silananda translates it as “habitual tendencies.” None of them seem to understand it, even though bhikkhu Silananda’s translation is better.
- “Bhava” is the “kammic energy” or “kammic potential” that can bring rebirths or “various mental states during a life.” That energy is generated via “avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra; saṅkhāra paccayā viññāna; viññāna paccayā nāmarūpa” steps once getting to the “taṇhā paccayā upādāna” step he just went through. See “Taṇhā Paccayā Upādāna – Critical Step in Paṭicca Samuppāda” and “Upādāna Paccayā Bhava – Two Types of Bhava.”
- If there is another video where he explains Paticca Samuppada (and “bhava“) better, I would like to watch it.
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Here’s a very short one, but I think it captures the essence of the Bhante’s teaching.
In the “6R” method the Bhante taught he often emphasized the “Relax” step. In the video he talked about the “tightening” of the mind at the “craving” step, so relaxing is relaxing of that “tightening”.
Dependent Origination Explained – A Key Buddhist Teaching
If you do a search on Youtube there should be much longer videos of the Bhante about paticca samuppada.
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I wrote: “It is a very superficial explanation.”
- This video does not change that.
P.S. Please post videos only if they explain Paticca Samuppada, including the concept of “bhava.”
P.P.S. I just saw a video by Bhante entitled “Breathing Meditation – New Perspective: Sattipathana Sutta – Part1.” Of course, I did not watch it.
- I don’t think I need to see more videos or anything else on this topic.
- Anyone who called Satipatthana “Breathing Meditation” would not know much about Buddha’s teachings.
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As someone who has experience, I need to address certain things to make clear because you need to live through certain things to be able to relate to it.
1) This person is a jhana practitioner (anariya), I can tell just by looking – it’s a skill that is gained through many years of meditation. As army men can recognize army men, as criminals can recognize criminals, at a certain level there is a shift in the way presents himself. The person did not attain Nirodha Samapatti which is exclusive to Arahant, let’s get this first straight. When I attained arupa jhanas I thought it was nirodha too because of the last jhana, this misunderstanding comes from not understanding Dhamma properly. I think at the level of Sotapanna one should realize no matter how high or low the experience is and see thru it for what it is – even if the person lacks theoretical understanding, one sees “this is it” and “this is not it”, people who are anariya yogis/jhana achievers do not have this distinction and can not see the true nature of experience which makes them wrongly call things for what they are. So when such a person attains the highest he can, he thinks of himself as “enlightened” – this happened at the times of Buddha when he was looking for teachers.
2) Not having carvings is different than realizing Nibbana and not having the desire to be reborn. His idea of not having carvings is the result of him having cravings fulfilled by jhana – not being free from them because of understanding Dhamma. It’s very easy to overestimate your position when you have wrong views. If you experience a certain level of sense pleasure and high you will be content for a long time ie. not having carvings in a mundane way but in reality they are still there. This is why is important to have real wisdom, insight, and experience because you easily can misunderstand your own experience without proper realization. That’s why it’s important to have real Dhamma, if you go through key aspects of this site and understand what is said here you will know his experience is anariya experience, still, I’m not downplaying it but it’s not permanent the solution so do not confuse it with Dhamma achievements.
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Amin on August 31, 2024 at 4:38 pm: “If you are using this sound to enter jhana, then it’s going to be super fun, based on how deep you are in jhana or samadhi. The tune and its volume changes. letting you know where you are and where you going.
When it comes to this sound there’s a lot to say.
As for jhanic experiences, the deeper you go the more the body becomes air-like, usually the perception of solidness goes away. Beginning from the foot. In some cases the body seems to get very tall and strange, there are a lot of strange things that happen don’t know where to begin. Usual experiences are a light body and a sense of comeness. Sometimes extreme joy delight. Some time still and quit, free from usual blabbering thoughts.
In higher states extraordinarily balanced mind, doesn’t grab at things like sounds with hate or lust, at that point usually below the neck is not felt. And strangely it seems that the usual feelings in my chest have moved, I remember some sort of energy from my chest going through spin on top of my skull, at the 3 or 4 jhana.
A lot of strange stuff, hearing bell-like sounds in both ears, not from physical objects…”This is not even the first jhana, those experience means your body, mind, and method are immature – this is what a beginner experiences before reaching 1st jhana.
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Amin on August 31, 2024 at 4:38 pm: “3 or 4. It’s not that hard to get to this state. I don’t know whay everybody says it’s hard. It’s probably the method. Just sit 2 hours on each setting 1/5 even 1 hour 3 to 4 times a day. Walking works too, I remember being in a very busy city with the sound of cars and all, still my mind was in some deep state. My body was like air while walking and I could hear the nada in the background.”
Please do not delude yourself, this is not even the first jhana – your energy gets affected negatively and weirdly because of the lack of a proper teacher and understanding of the practice. Real jhanas has very fixed experiences, what you explain is a very immature approach to meditation ie. being a rookie and over-estimating yourself. I wish you the best, though.
Lal’s note: Please make sure to indicate whom you are quoting. I entered that above.
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Dear Christian, could you please share the methods of how you attained jhanas and what one can do to attain them in the easiest way possible relative to other methods?
I want to practice them in order to try to attain higher stages.
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For anariya jhana anything can be used as long as you can keep your mind relaxed and focused on an object. Objects that relax you will work better. Formless objects will bypass rupa jhanas and you will start with arupa jhanas.
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What kind of objects do you use? When you have your objects, do you have to stare at them for a long time? I have another question which arupa samapatti do you reach 1, 2, 3 or 4? The last one concerns his powers like seeing one’s past lives and exiting through one’s body. Have you reached them?
I only know the jhānas in theory, in practice it is empty. Sorry for the large number of questions. I am also fascinated by these Jhānas, even though I have been warned about them.
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I probably used more than 100 objects in my practice (variations of the same objects often) – one needs to find an object that works with your mind’s quality. Also, I forgot to add that an ascetic lifestyle is important, you pretty much need to have a disciplined morality. No sense of pleasure of any kind, no bad things, and pretty much cut off from the world besides things you need/must do. If you try to attain jhana without actually having half to half a year without a solid base of discipline you will be wasting time unless you have high rebirth (still need to do the same to progress). I can not speak about Arupa much because many imposters would make claims – if they make true claims it would be harder to verify them and if someone has a wrong idea about jhanas and their claims it’s easy to debunk (that’s just my personal thing). I didn’t attain samapatti in any jhana but the majority of the jhanas were without samapatti.
About powers is that in arupa jhanas you feel god-like, it feels like you can do anything but because of the nature of your experience, you are not bothered to even do stuff like that because of certain factors you experience and see. In the story of Brahma and Buddha when Brahma thought he reached the peak, it’s clear in that state why.
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Thanks for the detailed explanation.😁 As you mentioned, without strong discipline, it can be a waste of time. I attempted to practice Jhānas with a transparent Kasina but couldn’t see a Nimitta. I could only remain calm for about an hour before my bad temper and Kāma ragā resurfaced and disturbed my tranquillity. It’s truly inspiring and interesting to converse with someone who has this kind of practical experience, rather than just theoretical knowledge. Thank you once again for sharing. I hope this experience helps you reach Nibbāna as quickly as possible! 🙏🏿
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Taking any “lokiya nimitta” (an object belonging to the world) as a meditation object (nimitta) is an anariya meditation (as Christian emphasized).
- Once Ven. Ananda asked the Buddha about that, and the Buddha explained it in detail. See “Saññā Sutta (AN 11.7).”
- Ven. Ananda asked: “Siyā nu kho, bhante, bhikkhuno tathārūpo samādhipaṭilābho yathā neva pathaviyaṁ pathavisaññī assa, na āpasmiṁ āposaññī assa, na tejasmiṁ tejosaññī assa, na vāyasmiṁ vāyosaññī assa, na ākāsānañcāyatane ākāsānañcāyatanasaññī assa, na viññāṇañcāyatane viññāṇañcāyatanasaññī assa, na ākiñcaññāyatane ākiñcaññāyatanasaññī assa, na nevasaññānāsaññāyatane nevasaññānāsaññāyatanasaññī assa, na idhaloke idhalokasaññī assa, na paraloke paralokasaññī assa, yampidaṁ diṭṭhaṁ sutaṁ mutaṁ viññātaṁ pattaṁ pariyesitaṁ anuvicaritaṁ manasā, tatrāpi na saññī assa; saññī ca pana assā”ti?
- The translation there can be improved as., “Could it be, bhante, that a bhikkhu might gain a samādhi like this? They would not focus their minds on pathavi (as using a clay ball in kasina meditation) by “taking in” the “pathavi saññā” OR āpo (as using a water bowl in kasina meditation) by “taking in” the “āpo saññā” OR tejo (as using a fire in kasina meditation) by “taking in” the “tejo saññā” OR vāyo (as using air in breath meditation) by “taking in” the “vāyo saññā” ..
- For example, “breath meditation” takes the saññā of air as the nimitta: “vāyosaññī assa.”
- The rest of the verse similarly is on arupa samapatti. For example, to cultivate ākāsānañcāyatana arupa samapatti, an Ariya will not focus their mind on “infinite space.”
- P.S. At the end of the verse, Ven. Ananda asked whether a samādhi can be attained without taking any nimitta associated with this world (this realm or any other realm). The answer is yes.
- @marker 5.1, the Buddha explains that an Ariya (Noble Person) takes the “cooling down/ultimate calmness of Nibbana” as the nimitta: “‘etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ, yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭinissaggo taṇhākkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānan’ti.”
P.P.S. This is also why saññā is a critical concept in Buddha Dhamma. All saññās associated with this world are illusions or mirages, as we have discussed: “Sotapanna Stage via Understanding Perception (Saññā).”
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Theruwan saranayi.
Hello everybody.
I hope everybody is doing well.• In the book written by Deleson Armstrong called “mind without craving.”
At the end of the book, many practitioners talk about their attainments.Reading them and carefully examining them.
It appears that most of them, if not all, have no relation to magga phala.
Just to be sure, I sent a question about this so-called cessation experience to the venerable Deegoda Dhammadassi.
If the video gets uploaded, I will leave it here. (It’s possible that the video didn’t get recorded)
It is best not to consider things like that as attainment.I will leave a story I found about such an experience below; reading it makes things clear.
• And he has made a new interview. And he is saying a lot of confusing things.
If somebody can explain what he is talking about that would be great.Tales of
CESSATIONU Tissa sat for hours in a state of blankness. His posture was firm and his mind fresh and alert when he emerged from his sitting. He had had a sudden cessation experience and wanted to have it again. The first experience occurred
while he was watching his mind in a meditative exercise that began with mindfulness of rapid breathing.
Ever since the first experience, he had been instructed to practise and use resolutions in his sittings. He made resolutions to go in quickly to thestate of blankness, ‘the peaceful void’; then to go in frequently. After he was quite adept at that, he resolved to go in and stay in ‘the peaceful void’ for increasingly longer periods of time.
But he was not always successful in staying awake during his sitting. Sometimes he would doze off and
wake up feeling very sleepy though his posture was still firm. Sometimes he would nod often.
How could it be otherwise? Isn’t everything
anatta—not subject to the control of the self? Even resolutions, which are mental formations (saṅkhāras)
that depend not only on strength of mind but also on other favorable conditions, e.g. food, climate and health to give the desired result, are anatta.
His dozing and nodding were defilements to his sitting. At the same time, he had had numerous
cessation experiences—willfully going into and coming out of that ‘peaceful void’. Because of the
repeated cessation experiences which he attained rather easily, he had no doubt at all that the Gates to
the Woeful Realms (Apāya) were closed for him. What puzzled him, however, was why his defilements had
not been totally eradicated: “How come I’m still not an Arahant?”Inspiration from the Past
“The trouble with yogis nowadays,” declared U Datta, interrupting U Tissa’s reverie, “is that they only talk of how much they want to be awakened.
But they don’t really try. Look, how much time and effort do they actually put into serious meditation?”
“You can say that again,” U Tissa replied. “If only we can be spurred by a sense of urgency…”
“Remember the five bhikkhus when Kassapa Buddha’s Sāsana was declining?”
“Sure. They said, ‘This is the Age of Decadence. What do we have to do with those shameless bhikkhus who don’t respect the Vinaya? Let’s climb
up a hill and sacrifice our lives to meditation.’ When they got to the peak of the hill they threw away the ladder and were forced to devote their last days to
meditation and nothing else.”
“Talking of the Age of Decadence…,” U Datta sighed. “Look at what’s happening today. Even meditation monks and Sayadaws who are supposed to be pure in their sīla, handle money and break many
Vinaya rules, not to mention the vast majority of non-practising monks everywhere. We are at the Age of
Decadence too.” U Datta sounded rather emotional as he touched on this sensitive issue.
They were monks who had been utterly disgusted with the prevalent moral
decadence of the Saṅgha and had taken to the forest, aspiring to lead a life more in accordance with the
Dhamma-Vinaya. “Yes,” U Tissa agreed. “You’re right again. We are at the Age of Decadence.” He paused and thought
deeply for a few moments. Then his face tensed up as
he said firmly and gravely, “We ought to follow their example.”
Other members of the forest Saṅgha protested and tried to talk them around, “Look, this is not the Age of Decadence. Pariyatti Sāsana here in Myanmar
is flourishing like it never has. We even have five Tipiṭakadharas, monks who can recite the Tipiṭaka by heart.
There are still monks who have deep
respect for the Vinaya and try to conduct themselves accordingly. You don’t have to resort to such drastic
measures. You can go on an intensive retreat and vow not to talk unnecessarily.”
“Nothing less than the fear of death can stimulate urgent, wholehearted effort,” retorted U Tissa. U
Datta nodded in agreement. Their hearts were intent on striving for attainment in this very life. Do or die it didn’t matter—as long as they died trying.Do or Die
U Tissa and U Datta left the forest monastery in search of a suitable place to do-or-die-meditate. A few hundred miles later they arrived at a seaside
monastery and explained their plans to the resident monk: The Sayadaw was to make arrangements for a boat to take the two of them to a small uninhabited island offshore and leave them stranded so that they would be forced to meditate until they died of thirst, hunger and exposure.
“Sayadaw Phayar, we hope you can help us. We are striving toward a noble goal.”
“Okay, I sympathise with you. But I have some important business to do in town right now. So can you please stay here and look after my monastery for
a few days? I’ll make the necessary arrangements as
soon as I get back.”
The two earnest monks were compelled to wait for the Sayadaw’s return before they could embark on their heroic enterprise. During the interval, however,
U Datta thought things over and backed out.
“Well, if you dare not do it, stay here then. I’m going,” U Tissa remarked bluntly as he got up to leave.“But the Sayadaw’s not back yet, so where are you going?”
“Up to the top of that hill over there,” U Tissa replied, pointing to a hill near the monastery.
U Datta was obliged to stay back in the monastery until the resident monk returned. His plan was to wait four or five days at the seaside before going up
the hill to see how his friend was faring.The Crazy Monkey Saves the Crazy Monk
Now the Sayadaw kept a pet monkey. On the third day after U Tissa’s departure it started to go berserk for no apparent reason. U Datta was at a complete
loss as to what to do.
“I’m not staying here with this crazy monkey, that’s for sure. Might as well climb up the hill now to see how U Tissa’s doing,” he thought.
When U Datta got to the top of the hill he stared aghast at the sight that made him exclaim:
“Oh my Lord Buddha! U Tissa, what have you done?”
U Tissa was sprawling limply on the ground smeared with fresh blood spurting from two clean
cuts at the throat and wrist respectively. A bloody razor was lying by his side. U Datta ran down the hill to get help immediately. U Tissa was rushed to the nearest hospital and, to cut a long story short, he
lived to tell his tale in a soft rasp:
“After I had slashed my own throat and wrist, I lapsed into a strange realm of consciousness. A very
frightening, black hellish vision appeared before me. I tried to get rid of it by various meditation techniques but it just wouldn’t go away.” -
Hello Amin,
You wrote (just before the video above): “And he has made a new interview. And he is saying a lot of confusing things.
If somebody can explain what he is talking about that would be great.”I thought we concluded that he did not understand Buddha’s teachings well. For example, he interpreted Satipatthana as “breath meditation.” (If I am incorrect about that conclusion, please point it out.)
- If my conclusion about him is correct, why must we still analyze his comments? What is the benefit?
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Thank you. I did get confused a bit.
I better spend my time on something useful. ( I did realize it a bit late, after resting).
I wish all those people who claim to be “Buddhist” reach to proper sources and learn Dhamma – they have motivation and will to learn but it’s all behind misinformation.
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