[Uyap]

When pondering on Buddha Dharma, come across my mind, there is no doubt on mind create mattter, the missing link is what create mind? What happen to matter after it’s lifetime end?

Uyap

[SengKiat]

@Uyap:
To have a mind (citta), it need rūpa (even in arupavacara (Formless realm) there is also trace of rūpa, see:Rūpa (Material Form) – Table ). In the Rūpavacara, there is one mindless plane (Asanna), see: Bhava and Bhavanga – Simply Explained!.

There are four causes which produce rūpa. They are:
(1) kamma
(2) citta
(3) utu
(4) āhāra

See Rūpa – Generation Mechanisms and Rūpa Kalapas (Grouping of Matter).

There are four different types of birth of Beings. Those are namely:

(1) Egg born (Andaja)
(2) Womb born Beings (Jalabuja)
(3) Moisture born beings (Sansedaja) and
(4) Spontaneous Birth (Opapatika)

What happen to matter after it’s lifetime end?
See Root Cause of Anicca – Five Stages of a Sankata.

[Uyap]

Seng Kiat,

Thanks for your explanation, let’s go down to the most basic ie :

“A suddhāshtaka, being a sankata, is created by the mind. This may be surprising to many of you, but as we progress, I will provide evidence that it is true. This is why the Buddha said, “manō pubbangamā dhammā…”, i.e., “everything has mind as the precursor…”.

What create mind ? what happen to suddhashtaka once it’s life end ?

Once we get answer, then each and everything else how tiny or huge is just “matter” with different appearance, just as simple as that.

Uyap

[SengKiat]

Uyap,

Suddhāshtaka or Suddhatthaka which has another name of Avinibbhoga Rupa (Inseparable material phenomena) and it consists of Earth (pathavi), Water (Apo), Fire (Tejo), Air (Vayo), Visible form (Vanna), Smell (Ghanda), Taste (Rasa) and Nutritive essence (Oja).

To have a mind (citta), it need to be a beings (see above four different types of birth of Beings) and beings need a body (rūpa) (see above four causes which produce rūpa).

Seng Kiat

[y not]

SengKiat:

I had an idea of these four modes of birth through reference to them in the book of Dzyan.

There they are listed as:
-the sweat-born
-the egg-born
-the womb-born
-the ‘sons of Will and Yoga’
along with the progression from one mode of ‘birth’ to another as the human race ‘evolves’

….the last, I now see, refers to opapatika ‘births’

y not

[Uyap]

Seng Kiat,

Yes, that’s suddhastaka composition.
Let’s hear Lal explanation to shed the light.

Uyap

[Lal]

Uyap said: “When pondering on Buddha Dharma, come across my mind, there is no doubt on mind create mattter, the missing link is what create mind? What happen to matter after it’s lifetime end?”

1. The Buddha said that there is no traceable beginning to life. Life is mind. Therefore, there is no traceable beginning to mind.
2. All matter belong to sankata category, and thus there is a finite lifetime. Most matter created at a certain time has a lifetime of half of a Maha Kappa (Maha Kalpa in Sinhala). A Maha kappa is the lifetime of the Solar system or the Earth.

[Uyap]

Lal: “2. All matter belong to sankata category, and thus there is a finite lifetime.”

According to “The law of conservation of energy, a fundamental concept of physics, states that the total amount of energy remains constant in an isolated system. It implies that energy can neither be created nor destroyed, but can be change from one form to another.”

What happen to suddhasthaka/matter after pass it’s finite lifetime ?

Uyap

[Lal]

Law of conservation of energy is a concept in modern physics. It holds for time scales of the order of at most the age of the Solar system. When the Solar system is destroyed all “tangible matter” is destroyed down to the suddhashtaka stage.

We do not know (science does not know) much about what happens at long time scales. So, it is not possible to explain phenomena in long time scales using conservation of energy.

Any sankata is “borne” (past participle of “bear”) by “dhamma”, the kammic energy that created it. “Dhamma” means “to bear”. Everything is created by the mind and each such thing has a finite lifetime. In a way, that is related to the concept of anicca; see, “What Are Rūpa? (Relation to Nibbāna)“.

Some sankata disintegrate into other types within fairly short times. For example, a human body is decomposed into other inert matter, and those may break down eventually to electron/proton levels. But electrons/protons also have finite lifetimes even though very long. A suddhashtaka is the ultimate building block (much smaller than an electron/proton) and it has ultimate lifetimes of the order to half of a Maha kappa.

The point is that any sankata is destroyed after some time. We cannot explain these things with the limited vocabulary of modern science. Conservation of energy is such a concept in modern science. It will work well for science which deals with fairly short times scales, but NOT in the time samsaric time scale.

[Uyap]

Lal : “The point is that any sankata is destroyed after some time.”

In my understanding only mind that free from greed, hate & ignorance can escape from annicca ie. Nibbana, everything else must bound to annicca law (rebirth / change form, annicca could be is the “conservation energy law” in modern science) If suddhaasthaka destroy and vanish, could it be same as escape from annicca?

Uyap

[Uyap]

annicca could be is the “conservation energy law” : another ultimate beauty truth of Buddha Dhamma reveal long long before human science….

[Lal]

Anicca nature arises BECAUSE rupa (any type of matter/energy) anywhere in the 31 realms DO NOT last forever, and are also subjected to unpredictable change while in existence (viparinama nature).

Therefore, anicca is a MANIFESTATION of NON-CONSERVATION.

[Sammasambodhi Gami]

Hii everyone,

May the blessings of the Triple Gem be with you always !

In this thread, basically two questions have been asked:

(1) If mind creates matter, then what creates mind ?

(2) What happens to a suddhatthaka when its lifetime ends ?

First of all, we all have different mind(s).

Every sentient being has its own stream of consciousness (separate from others).

So my stream of consciousness is different from your stream of consciousness.

And each individual stream of consciousness had NO BEGINNING (always existed in Sansara).

This mind-matter creation process is fueled by avijja (and tanha) and hence continuing this rebirth process (of mind AND matter) from beginningless time !

Avijja paccaya Sankhara…
Sankhara paccaya Vinnana…
Vinnana paccaya “Nama-Rupa”…

So this “Nama-Rupa” comes from vinnana.

Vinnana has kammic energy which creates mind AND matter.

And this vinnana was created by abhi-sankhara (done in past lives and also in present life) via javana citta.

Roughly translated in English, mind means “citta and cetasika”. And matter means “rupa”.

Citta, cetasika and rupa, all are “Sankata”.

So not going into detail, giving answer to (1) in simple language :
Your present “mind” was created by your own kammic energy from past lives.

And your future “mind” will be created by your kammic energy from present life (and also past lives).

Now coming to the second question.

Rupa can be classified into four categories:

(a) Kammaja rupa (Rupa produced by Kamma)
(b) Cittaja rupa (Rupa produced by Citta)
(c) Utuja rupa (Rupa produced by Utu)
(d) Aharaja rupa (Rupa produced by Ahara)

Different rupas have different lifetimes (but every Sankata has a FINITE lifetime).

A suddhatthaka is the smallest fundamental unit of matter (unknown to modern science).

A suddhatthaka gets converted into another type of suddhatthaka when the proportion of its constituents (patavi, apo, tejo, vayo, vanna, gandha, rasa, oja) are changed. In modern language we call this as one form of energy gets converted into another.

But the so called “conservation of energy theorem” holds only within the lifetime of a suddhatthaka.

But when the lifetime of a suddhatthaka ends, its energy runs out and it gets completely destroyed i.e, it vanishes completely.

But the problem is, new suddhatthakas are created by sentient beings all the time.

This is what we all have been doing from beginning-less time !

Sentient beings create suddhatthakas (due to avijja) so that they can enjoy pleasures from them (i.e, tanha).

Hope this helps.

MAY ALL BEINGS ATTAIN NIBBANA !!!

[Uyap]

C. Saket : But when the lifetime of a suddhatthaka ends, its energy runs out and it gets completely destroyed i.e, it vanishes completely.

If vanish means unborn, unchange, no end anymore, so it enter nibbana?

Uyap

[Lal]

@Uyap: There is a huge difference between an inert thing (made of just suddhashtaka) and a living being.

When a living being stops existing in this world (filled with suffering), that is called Nibbana.

Any inert thing made out of just suddhashtaka is destroyed it is NOT called Nibbana. It is just destroyed (it cannot feel any suffering; there is no mind associated with inert thngs).

All inert things (made of suddhashtaka) are created by the minds of living beings.

[Uyap]

Lal, yes it make sense. I grasp it now.

Thks
Uyap

[y not]

Saket:

Thank you.

‘-So my stream of consciousness is different from your stream of consciousness.’ and

‘-And each individual stream of consciousness had NO BEGINNING (always existed in Sansara).’

So this means that the individuality (of every singular ‘mind’ ) persists after the attainment of Nibbana… and also, it is not that that individuality, or that individualization was acquired through sanasara by the assimilation into it of qualities that in time gave rise to that individuality. Rather, the individuality, that which distinguishes every ‘mind’ from another (in the sense of those streams of consciousness) was always there, and the whole process is only one of
removing the defilements; much like an uncountable number of pebbles covered in mud. The pebbles are inherently different in shape and colour from one another, all are unique. The process (sansara) just removes the mud so that the pebbles may shine in their true glory.

This puts to rest other conflicting theories I had been grappling with for a long time, found mainly in Mahāyāna or Mahāyāna-related literature, which never really sank in.

Yes,your post DID help,

thanks again

y not

[Uyap]

Anicca sanna is the key…

[Lal]

First of all, please pay attention to Grammar when posting. This question is a good one, but the topic title was not formulated right. I just changed it to: “Mind Creates Matter, What creates the Mind?”.

y not said: “So this means that the individuality (of every singular ‘mind’ ) persists after the attainment of Nibbana”

After attaining Nibbana, there is no “individuality” left in this world of 31 realms, i.e., there is no rebirth. Please read the subsection on “Nibbana“.

The “lifestream” of an individual ceases to exist in this world of 31 realms: “What Reincarnates? – Concept of a Lifestream“.

Also read: “Nibbāna “Exists”, but Not in This World“.

This question keeps coming up in different forms. Please make sure to understand what is meant by Nibbana. If not clear, let us get it resolved here.

[y not]

Lal:

My ‘grabbing onto’ what Saket said, or what I understood by it (if the two be different) was because I saw in it a refutation of the Mahāyāna concept of absorption,evaporation, non-differentiation amounting to (individual) non-existence…’the dewdrop merging into the shining sea’.

This is by way of showing the ground of what I wrote. Thank you for wanting to resolve the matter here. At any rate, Nibbana exists.For myself I would rather dedicate what time I have left to getting There, or nearer There, tackling whatever may stand in the way of that, as you well know.

y not

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