[pathfinder]

Looking from the cetasika list it seems like guilt involves the “hiri” (shame of wrong) cetasika, eg ashamed that we stole something, which is sobhana cetasika. Since only either sobhana or asobhana cetasika can arise at once, from this logic, guilt involves sobhana cetasika. Yet we feel mentally strained when experiencing guilt. Is this a manifestation of vedana cetasika? Isit possible for domanassa vedana cetasika to arise with sobhana cetasika?

[Lal]

The post in question is “Cetasika (Mental Factors).”

Pathfinder: “Looking from the cetasika list it seems like guilt involves the “hiri” (shame of wrong) cetasika, eg ashamed that we stole something, which is sobhana cetasika.”

• That is not the way to look at it. When the “hiri” (shame of wrong) cetasika arises in a mind, one will abstain from wrongdoing. One would feel guilty only if one engaged in a wrong action. 

[pathfinder]

What about the feeling after we know we did something wrong? (Remorse or guilt). Let’s say I stole money from someone. After doing that I feel guilty for what I have done, thinking how I could have harmed them etc.

How is there “Ahirika(shamelessness);  Anottapa(fearlessness in the wrong)” in that feeling? Or will there even be asobhana cetasika in the first place?

[Lal]

Pathfinder: “What about the feeling after we know we did something wrong? (Remorse or guilt). Let’s say I stole money from someone. After doing that I feel guilty for what I have done, thinking how I could have harmed them etc.”

• You steal money with the arising of Ahirika (shamelessness) and  Anottapa (fearlessness in the wrong), which are the asobhana cetasika that are the opposites of hiri (shame of wrong) and ottappa (fear of wrong).
• Once stealing (in that example), one’s mind becomes agitated, leading to feelings of guilt and remorse.

Hiri (shame of wrong) and ottappa (fear of wrong) are mental factors (cetasika) that need to be cultivated. One must see the drawbacks of Ahirika (shamelessness) and  Anottapa (fearlessness in the wrong).

[pathfinder]

Lal: Once stealing (in that example), one’s mind becomes agitated, leading to feelings of guilt and remorse.

Yes, but what cetasika can be possibly involved in those feelings?

[Lal]

Those would be kukkucca (worry, also feeling low); thīna (sloth, sluggishness);  middha (torpor);  vicikicchā (doubt arising from temptations).

• Please read the post and think about these things. 
• Most people read a post in a few minutes and expect to understand the concepts. It is a good practice to take time and compare concepts from other posts, especially suggested posts with links. The mind is a complex entity. It takes time to understand how the mind works.
• In his case, I would suggest reading the “Calming the Mind” section.

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pathfinder

[Lal]

Here is a sutta that discusses “hiri” and “ottappa” usually combined as “hirottappa.” “Hirīottappa Sutta (AN 7.65).”

• The English translation there translates those words as “lacking conscience” and “lacking prudence” but “shame of wrongdoing” and “fear of wrongdoing” are better translations.
• When we were growing up, these were the basics taught to us by our parents and teachers. Sadly, that is missing these days. Instead, teachers tend to focus on “sex education,” even for little kids!

P.S. Here is another relevant sutta: “Avijjā Sutta (SN 45.1)“

• “Avijjā, bhikkhave, pubbaṅgamā akusalānaṁ dhammānaṁ samāpattiyā, anvadeva ahirikaṁ anottappaṁ.” or “Ignorance precedes the attainment of immoral qualities, with lack of “shame of wrongdoing” and “fear of wrongdoing.“

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pathfinder, Jittananto

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