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Does citta have a spatial location when it arises?
Or do all mental processes for all lifestreams happen only in Vinnana dhatu which has no spatial dimension?
Note: I understand that we need to change our usual thinking pattern for buddha dhamma. As not all objects have spatial locations necessary, but that is how we think.
Example. memories/kamma seeds have no spatial locations. we cannot pinpoint “where” they are.
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Cittas arise in a hadaya vatthu (the “seat of the mind”.)
- So, cittas arise in each person, animal, Deva, etc.
- Memories (namagoatta) and kamma bija are in vinnana dhatu (which has no spatial location.) See “Rupa, Dhammā (Appaṭigha Rupa) and Nāmagotta (Memories) (with chart #14).”
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Yes. Where the hadaya vatthu is, that is where cittas arise.
- If you go to the Moon, your cittas will arise at that location on the Moon because that is where your physical body and hadaya vatthu (located in the manomaya kaya within the body) will be.
- Suppose you had developed abhinna powers and had attained the ability to come out of the physical body with the manomaya kaya and travel with the manomaya kaya (this is called “astral travel” nowadays.) Then you can even leave the physical body on the Moon and travel to Earth with your manomaya kaya and your cittas will arise wherever you are on Earth.
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Thank you, Lal, for the explanations!
Yes, that’s understood! Hadaya Vatthu with a Suddhastthaka as a subsoil is needed for the emergence of viññāna/Citta.
1. But if one now asks, are all Hadaya Vatthu different?
2. And if YES, therefore in different places! Because of the connection to Anusaya, Nāmagotta, kamma bija, dhammā etc. in the viññāna dhātu. Definitely in Akasa Dathu and also in Arupa Loka!3. But if two Hadya Vatthu were exactly the same to 100%, including the mental impurities, simply everything.
4. Would one then be in the same place?
5. Do the different impurities lead to a spatial separation?
6. Or is it as simple as saying that every Hadaya Vatthu is the same but in different places?If question 5 is YES, that would make the most sense to me at the moment! And if there are no impurities present, thus no grasping, the mind (viññāna/Citta) would be placed on Nibbana dhātu.
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1. Yes. Hadaya vatthu is unique to each person, but it also changes when the bhava changes, for example, from human to Brahma or human to animal.
- All previous bhava are shielded from the new bhava. The old hadaya vatthu dies at the cuti-patisandhi moment, and a new hadaya vatthu is created by kammic energy.
- All anusaya are transferred to the new hadaya vatthu. However, some anusaya are prevented from “being triggered” in higher realms. For example, when an anariya is born in a Brahma realm, kama raga anusaya will still be there; but it cannot be triggered. Thus even though a rupavacara Brahma may see “mind-pleasing objects,” his kama raga will not be triggered. Yet, when he is reborn in the human realm afterward, then it can again be triggered.
2. Of course, the new hadaya vatthu will arise in the appropriate realm, i.e., in a different location.
- For example, if a human dies and becomes a rupavacara Brahma, the human hadaya vatthu dies with the physical body. At that exact moment, a new hadaya vatthu will arise in that rupavacara Brahma realm, which is far above the Earth.
3. 4. 5. 6. The hadaya vatthus are not the same as above.
If I did not understand the question (for example, in 5), please re-word the question.
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Mh, I can’t say whether the question was understood correctly, because the question is very abstract to obscure and I expected a different answer. That is why I am going to rephrase.
1. So when two life streams experience rebirth at the same time, with 100% of the same impurities, kamma energy, every rupa and experience from the past, etc., everything is completely the same. Would the Hadaya Vatthu be found in the same place? This is actually not possible and very abstract.
2. So, the Total Impurities, such as Anusaya, Gati, Kamma Vipaka, Kamma Bija, etc., are responsible for where we are born in space and that in the whole universe?
3. Or is the location in the room only due to Kamma Vipaka?
4. What determines the position of Hadaya Vatthu after birth, in space…..
5. You can also divide the worlds and location according to Citta.
Città according to worlds division
Consciousness classes
54 54 of the sensory sphere,
15 15 of the Fine Body Sphere,
12 12 of the Incorporeal Sphere,
8 40 of the Overworldly Sphere;
89 121 all worldsThe impurities determine the thinking (Citta) and the thought from the past also respectively . The produced Kamma viññāna & Vipaka viññāna…
In short, Citta determines the location, right?
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I think my problem is this: “1. So when two life streams experience rebirth at the same time, with 100% of the same impurities, kamma energy, every rupa and experience from the past, etc., everything is completely the same.”
We are not (at least I was not) talking about TWO lifestreams.
- It is the same lifestream switching from one existence (bhava) to another. For example, we will not be reborn human forever. A human bhava may last thousands to even a million years.
- I addressed what happens when that human is reborn as a Brahma at the end of a human bhava. Within that human existence, a SINGLE gandhabba (manomaya kaya) can be reborn many times with different physical (human) bodies. But at the end of that human bhava, that gandhabba dies, and a Brahma is born simultaneously in a Brahma realm. Since a Brahma does not have a physical body, it will live its entire existence with that manomaya kaya.
Let us get this sorted out first. If this is not what you had in mind, please explain what you were thinking about.
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The Mind is the forerunner of all that is. The mind(viññāna/citta) is the master……
#45014
So, Answer is yes.Because, hadaya vatthu has spatial location, so, consequently citta will also have spatial location, right?
No, I say: Namarupa ……….viññāna/citta, requires Hadaya Vatthu/1x Suddhatthaka, but determines the location of Hadaya Vatthu..
#45016
Yes. Where the hadaya vatthu is, that is where cittas arise.If you go to the Moon, your cittas will arise at that location on the Moon because that is where your physical body and hadaya vatthu (located in the manomaya kaya within the body) will be.
Suppose you had developed abhinna powers and had attained the ability to come out of the physical body with the manomaya kaya and travel with the manomaya kaya (this is called “astral travel” nowadays.) Then you can even leave the physical body on the Moon and travel to Earth with your manomaya kaya and your cittas will arise wherever you are on Earth.YES, this statement is correct insofar as the birth is complete. As long as paṭisandhi is not included.
“kammā vipāka vaḍḍhanti, vipāko kamma sambhavo”
“Tasmā punabbhovo hoti, evan loko pavattati”
The last citta vithi of the old life arises in the ancient hadaya vatthu and it will go through its course of 17 cittās, including the last two Tadārammana or “registration” (T) cittās, after the seven javana cittās.Cuti or death is not a citta. It is the death of the Hadaya Vatthu of the old life. Cuti, or the death of the ancient hadaya vatthu, happens immediately after the last citta vithi, and the cuti citta is in the last citta vithi. Paṭisandhi citta grasps the gati of the new bhava.
So Citta is in charge of the place. Hadaya Vatthu serves only as an underground.
Citta = nama decides and Hadaya Vatthu with 1x Suddhatthaka = Rupa
It’s a loop but Citta or the ghost decides….I think I found the solution myself.
Thank you Dear Lal…….for all that I learn from you.
P.s. or I didn’t interpret the questions and answers correctly….
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