The reason why I asked Lal what was his take on the implied meaning of assāsapassāsā as breathing in and out for kaya sankhara in the Cūḷavedallasutta (MN 44) was because it wasn’t immediate clear to me at that time and thought possibly the implied meaning of breathing in and out for assāsapassāsa was taken. But after seeing the comment of “4. Conclusion: Assāsapassāsā in “Assāsapassāsā kāyasaṅkhāro” (discussed in the Cūḷavedalla Sutta) cannot be “breathing in and out.”, it’s clear to me now, thank you.
I would like to share it’s also my take / believe the mentioned implied meaning of breathing in and out for assāsapassāsā kāyasaṅkhāro” as discussed in the Cūḷavedalla Sutta cannot be about breathing in and out. Around a year ago, I had thoughts of investigating into this very matter to see what can be done to prove / demonstrate where assāsapassāsā kāyasaṅkhāro” discussed in the Cūḷavedalla Sutta isn’t about breathing, but something else which I couldn’t say for sure. For the contemplation / investigation process, whatever interpretation / line of thinking / understanding I might come up for kāyasaṅkhāro would have to be consistent with my understanding of or assist with the practice of satipatthana, specifically when it comes to kāye kāyānupassī viharati. I thought if we can understand more about kāyasaṅkhāro, it may open up new / more possibilities of understanding about Satipatthana especially when it comes to the kāye kāyānupassī viharati passage.
“As we have discussed many times, a word can have different meanings depending on the context. That holds not only for Pāli, but also for English and most languages”.
At one time in the past even though learning / knowing a word can have different meanings, I had thoughts of where assāsapassāsā mentioned as one of the definitions for vayo dhatu and the every use of assāsapassāsā in the sutta’s wouldn’t have the meaning of breathing in and out at all. But later came to see the thinking / line of thinking was possibly errored / wrong / incorrect. There seems to be more obvious examples found in the sutta’s where assāsapassāsā does mean or represent breathing in and out or respiration, but the same can also be said about where assāsapassāsā mean something else in the sutta’s other than breathing in and out or about respiration. So it seems like after all assāsapassāsā depending on the context could possibly have the meaning of breathing in and out or about respiration. Unfortunately it’s no easy task for myself anyways to see or be clear on the different implied meanings being used for assāsapassāsā in the sutta’s.
It was mentioned:
“This is a crucial yet simple point to remember. That is why “breathing in and out” cannot be a type of abhisaṅkhāra.”
“How does raga, dosa, or moha arise when breathing in and out?”
#1. I can see the case to be made where breathing doesn’t involve sañcetanā or abhisaṅkhāra like when one breathes naturally without intended effort or focus on doing so, but I can think of an example where it might demonstrate depending on one’s intention with their breathing can involve sañcetanā or abhisaṅkhāra. The example being where breath meditation is practiced for any other purpose than for nibbana or to continue to live. Like where / when there’s intention behind the focusing on or manipulating the breath for the practice / attainment of jhana’s or other some attainments besides nibbana. Another example I can think of is where one intently with the 3 unwholesome roots start a fire and use their breathing to blow on the flame making the fire bigger and stronger to do more harm or damage to the environment or other living beings. Would these cases where breathing is involved with sañcetanā or abhisaṅkhāra?
#2. Something I would like clarified / feedback; “One needs to breathe to move body parts (He quotes a Waharaka Thero‘s discourse on this, and I have also listened to it).”
I understand that I definitely won’t be able to move my body if I don’t breath for some time, but can’t one still move their body while not breathing even though only for a short period of time? For example some people can run for about 30 secs while holding on their breath.
#3. “It merely states that to cultivate Satipaṭṭhāna, one must fully comprehend how sankappa arises in the purāna kamma stage”.
The comprehension on how sankappa arises in the purāna kamma stage, would that be similar to comprehend how PUK arises and how it can be ceased, like samudaya and nirodha? My understanding / thinking is that sankappa arises due the living beings gati / asava’s / anusaya’s, samyojana’s coming into contact with mind made rupa and taken Etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti – Connection to Taṇhā, Māna, Diṭṭhi
Hello Amin,
Thank you for sharing the answers you came across and for the Thero’s desana. I didn’t know of the 6 types sankhara’s (3 being without raga, dosa, moha and 3 with) referenced from paticca samuppada vibhanga mentioned by the Thero around the beginning of time stamp, thank you and the Thero for helping me learn of.
In regards to the Thero’s description of assāsapassāsā for kāyasaṅkhāra. From the parts of video I watched, my interpretation of what the Thero is saying / teaching on assāsapassāsā relating to kāyasaṅkhāra is a description of oppositely working muscle system. Some or similar words I thought to have heard in the video, “In our body for every action is created or manipulated by 2 muscles that have opposing actions”. An example of the elbow joint was used, like the bicep triceps contracts and expands. Also the mention of the correlation between expansion and contraction and breathing in and out. I believe a teaching from Abhaya thero on kammaja vayo dhatu was provided? from the Thero to show / demonstrate how vayo element helps with the movement of the body which could possibly be related to assāsapassāsā.
Within the transcription in the OP: “It’s called Kāya Saṅkhāra because, yes, the mind is the underlying factor—the main controlling unit—but through that processing and compiling, or through that Saṅkhāra, you see a change in your body. That’s why Assāsa and Passāsa are called Kāya Saṅkhāra. To open your mouth, you relax one set of muscles and contract another; to close it, the opposite happens. That’s how the body works—with pairs of opposing muscles acting in contrary ways during operation or processing. So, that’s Kāya Saṅkhāra”.
Maybe I’m totally wrong or mistaken but I feel the interpretations / teachings that I come across or from my own thinking and understanding on kāyasaṅkhāro would have to be consistent with my understanding of or assist with the practice of satipatthana specifically relating to kāye kāyānupassī viharati. Currently I’m not sure, able to see / relate how I can apply the teaching / description / explanation of assāsapassāsā kāyasaṅkhāra as an oppositely working muscle system to the practice of satipatthana, specifically to kāye kāyānupassī viharati. I also have a hard time believing or taking kāyasaṅkhāra especially when it comes to the Buddha teaching to be some form of oppositely working muscle system or relating to joints and muscles. Amin I would like to ask you, do yourself believe assāsapassāsā kāyasaṅkhāra to be about an opposite working muscle system? I don’t believe or take the Thero and others teaching / explanation on kāyasaṅkhāra assāsapassāsā to be completely incorrect / wrong, but for myself I just feel there is more meaning behind or another explanation on the relationship between assāsapassāsā and kāyasaṅkhāra than as a breathing process or muscle joint contraction expansion system. But like I said, I could be wrong / mistaken in the first place about the interpretation / definition of kāyasaṅkhāra having any relationship / connection / association to the practice of satipatthana or kāye kāyānupassī viharati.